[Anthony Gray]

  Ken Fry asks a similiar question on a current thread. Would Crystal Downes be better if 17 and 18 were closer to the water.

  So please allow me to ask this. If 1 and 18 were switched would it improve Bandon Trails?

  Hole 1 would start at the clubhouse . Hole 18 would finish in the dunes with an ocean view. Take into account that this course started from scratch and the clubhouse, access roads, etc., were not present from the start.

   Anthony

 

[Mike Benham]

I could be, and probably am, wrong but I don't thing C&C had the land available to set the holes any closer to the ocean. 

[Pete_Pittock]

The access road, played across on the 3rd and 18th tee shots, preceded Bandon Trails by a number of years. It was the original and only paved access route into the resort. Unless there was a lot of earthmoving you probably would start with a blind shot over a ridge. C&C may have made a new hole elsewhere otherwise you wold have back to back threes at 16 and 17, or a par 3 finisher.

[Anthony Gray]

  The first tee would start at the clubhouse and green would be close to the secound tee. The 18th tee would be close to the secound tee (Pac Dunes 7th and 9th are close) and green would be at current first.

  This eliminates the drive over the road at 18 currently. The first can play the same distance. If you look at the routing map on the website there is room. Water views are better at the finish.

  Anthony


  Could a par 3 course be next for Bandon in the dunes to the west of the first hole? 

  Anthony



       

 

[Chip Gaskins]

a par 3 finisher would be great!  who cares.

i personally think Bandon Trails is a Top 30 course...if it were to get any better the only places i see improvement MIGHT be #14 green and hole #18.  otherwise, i could play it everyday, it truly is one of my favorite courses in the world.  wow, that #3 green, that #8 tee shot, that #13 approach shot, #17....world class!!!!

[Ian_L]

I don't think Bandon Trails is at all about water views.  You'll get nothing close to what you get at the other two courses anyway, so I don't think it would make much difference.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

Your question illustrates the problem that all golfers have when rerouting golf courses in their heads ... you're not looking at the bigger picture of how holes fit together.

To play the first hole backwards as #18 ... how the hell are you going to get from the current 17th green to #18 tee, except with a very long uphill walk?

Every proposed change has ramifications for a couple of other holes.  I can tell you that Bill Coore isn't going to go for that unless there is NO other option (as he had to do to get over the ridge to #14 tee at Bandon Trails).

[Anthony Gray]

  Tom,

   At Cruden Bay there is a wonderful uphill walk from the 8th green to the 9th tee. And then at the top wow what a view of the water. To the west of the first fairwayat BT there is plenty of room for a finishing hole. As it is now you still have to make the same walk to get to the 18th fairway. I think it changes the course very little.

  Anthony

 

 

[Tom Jefferson]

Ian, and others;

This thread reminds me of the one, a couple years ago, where several members of this Discussion Group thought it would be good to reroute much of Bandon Dunes so that the ravine in front of #16 tee could somehow be utilized differently, and better, in their opinion.  To what good end would any of that rerouting accomplish?

And so here as well, to what good end would your suggestion TRULY accomplish?
As Tom Doak gently reminds us, leaving out the bigger picture/entire routing, is solely fantasy thinking........and not grounded.  Because a finishing hole in sight of the ocean is better??  Well, finish on the current 18th, then walk to the porch nearby and look across the green to the dunes and the afternoon sun on the ocean and then say that a 18th green somewhere to the west would be an improvement.

I can assure you that Bill Coore, Ben Crenshaw, and Dave Axland considered about EVERYTHING when they settled on the final routing and the placement of holes 1 and 18.  Bill told me, for example, that they thought about going down into the dunes to the west of hole 2 and tee 3, but couldn't 'find a way out' of the depths of those dunes in a way that added to the overall golf experience and/or fit into the larger routing.  Additionally, those dunes contain a federally listed plant, and were, according to Bill Coore, largely held away from golf development by Howard Mckee, the master land planner responsible for so much of the great visionary planning at Bandon Dunes.

They considered ALOT.  One routing, that Dave Axland mentioned to me, had the clubhouse near the current 16 green!  Number 4 originally was to head from the site of 15 green to the southwest!

What is the problem in driving across the road on holes 3 and 18?  I don't see much of one, and in fact the drive on 3 is pretty exhilarating.  The walk from 17 green to 18 tee is appropriate and natural, and the 18 green site, in close proximity to that beautiful clubhouse, where one can sit and watch the play in, is sublime and pretty special, and works really well.

So, I would take exception with this kind of fantasy rerouting, for many reasons.  The end result at Bandon Trails is special, and in my opinion is the absolute strength and beauty of that wonderful course. While there might, someday, be some tweeking of this or that feature, to suggest that the course needs some sort of major reconfiguration, to me, is just plain silly.  And ungrounded to boot.

All the best, and everyone, have a fantastic 2009!!

Tom Jefferson, CGCS
Bandon Dunes Golf Resort

[Tom Jefferson]

Sorry Ian, I meant to address that little rant to Anthony!  My mistake.

But you can read it if you want!!!!

Best,
Tom

[Jed Peters]

i personally think Bandon Trails is a Top 30 course...if it were to get any better the only places i see improvement MIGHT be #14 green and hole #18.  otherwise, i could play it everyday, it truly is one of my favorite courses in the world.  wow, that #3 green, that #8 tee shot, that #13 approach shot, #17....world class!!!!

Chip, I agree.

I too, am a huge Bandon Trails fan.

I still think that overall Pac is a better course, but Trails is about as good as it gets.

Both courses blow away Bandon, my least favorite of the 3.

For what it's worth, I think that most mid-to low single digit handicappers that I play with feel the same way.

And, as an aside, I'm a total loser (or just maybe a new dad!) for not going out on new year's.

[Anthony Gray]

  Tom Jefferson,

  I am not saying redo it, it is to late. The end result could be better. 1 and 18 run beside each other so very little is changed. The clubhouse could also be placed to look over my favorite place for a 18th green and also provide a wonderful view of Bandon Dunes. I love  tee shots over roads so that is no problem for me. If you have to walk from the tee at 18 to the fairway then you can also walk from the 17th green to a tee box across the road. The roting I like better does not change walking distances.

  All this being said I agree withyou that I was not there when all the possible routing options were discussed so I don't know of limitations. But I do think the clubhouse could be in a better place and 1 and 18 switched useing the same land.

  Anthony

   

[Jason Pyle]

I may get a flogging for this but I don't care for 16 either.  And honestly as a whole BT for me was a good deal better than BD - far fewer weak(ish) holes. varied terrain, and wonderful greens.  It's one of my favorite courses. 

The only three holes I did not care for on BT were 14 (really hated it - very very little reward and requires 2 outstanding shots to even be putting.  Especially when the pin is in the front third of the green as it was when we played it.  Hate hate hate that hole - hate it), 16 (this takes a good bit of a backseat to 14 and 18, but the tee shot on this hole is a bit hohum and the fairly severe uphill approach to the green is somewhat blind.  I'm doing a horrible job describing it, but it's just a downer hole staring into the hillside after a marvelous 15), and 18 (really the tee shot does it for me.  To me this whole could have been done better.  And 17, albeit a Par 3 hurts 18 because that's one of the best holes on the golf course.  I do like the aproach at 18.).

Perhaps nothing can be done to 16 and 18 but 14 could be improved greatly by making 2/3rds of the entier left side of the green comples more green.  Keep the narrow opening but give us a shot at par with a good hybrid or iron and a solid wedge shot.  The severe bunker on the right and the steep slope give this hole enough teeth.  Playing ping pong from bunker to swale with a front pin placement after 2 solid shots is no fun (i know well because I recorded an 8 and a 6 by doing this on both rounds there).

[David Botimer]

Bandon Trails is a phenomenal course that loses all the good vibes it created in the first 13 holes with some bad mojo in the closing 5 holes.

To start, the real problem with the close is that it kicks most everbody's ass!!!!  I've seen more train wrecks there, and that includes many of the best players I've witnessed.  One player a couple years ago was 3 under with 4 to go and bogeyed out for a 1 over round.  Another top player was 2 under after 14 and same result.  Overall, Trails plays 1-2 shots harder than Bandon or Pacific for scratch players and 5 shots harder than Bandon for bogey golfers.  Apparently golfers are a sensitive bunch......play a hard course, hate the course, not the play!!!!

Secondly, a couple of the closing holes could be "softened" and not reduce the character of the hole.  Hole 14 has already been changed and based on my 1 year of witnessing play would say the change is sufficient to make 14 a manageable, yet still tough short par 4.  I wouldn't change another thing since the widening of the green left.  It's controversial, tough, a LITTLE unfair, yet very parrable.  I LOVE it!

Hole 15 is perfect.

Hole 16 is an ok hole, but I would only make a cosmetic change('s) to it......remove the big bush (tree?) behind the right bunker 100 yards out from the green, and/or trim the jungle along the left side of the fairway leaving some possibilities there.  The problem with this hole is all short drivers end up in the same "divot factory" short left in the fairway.  This leaves an awkward 2nd shot which asks for a right to left ball flight, which few short hitters have, bringing the aforementioned bunker / bush into play.

Hole 17 is a GREAT hole, no change necessary.

Hole 18 is bar none the hardest AND worst hole at the resort.  For starters the fairway OFTEN penalizes a seemingly good tee shot.  A cosmetic change would be easy; flatten the knob in the center of the fairway at 150 yards out to minimize the kicking of a good tee shot into the left OR right fairway bunkers.  Secondly, remove all or most of the fairway bunkering on the left side thus leaving a "safe zone" for a well struck tee shot.  Even with both these changes the hole still kicks a lot of butt, given that the approach shot is 1 club uphill, often into a 5 club wind.  Nothing like a 180 yard shot from 120 yards to finish a match to a green protected by sand left, 10 foot falloff right, and a false front that could repel a slightly short shot back.......75 yards into the fairway!!!!

Short of these changes, the only re-routing I would consider is building a clubhouse in the woods at the 7 green / 11 tee intersection,  starting the course on 11.  This could leave a great "whiskey run" 8-10 triangle for late afternoon play, and make the difficult 15-18 stretch in the center of the round when legs are fresh, not at the end with frazzled nerves and tired legs.

[John Kirk]

Bandon Trails is the most difficult of the three courses.  The closing stretch must be very difficult in the summer wind.  I haven't had that pleasure yet.

For comparison's sake, my favorite holes at Bandon Trails are 1, 3, 7, 10, 12, 13 and 15.  I don't hate any of the holes there.  It has to be hard somewhere.

[Bill_McBride]

  Tom,

   At Cruden Bay there is a wonderful uphill walk from the 8th green to the 9th tee. And then at the top wow what a view of the water. To the west of the first fairwayat BT there is plenty of room for a finishing hole. As it is now you still have to make the same walk to get to the 18th fairway. I think it changes the course very little.

 

The hike up the hill from #6 green to #7 tee at Dornoch is pretty strenuous too and also with great views on the way.  There are actually a couple of benches along the way in case you need to stop for a blow!

[Tim Bert]

Bandon Trails is the most difficult of the three courses.  The closing stretch must be very difficult in the summer wind.  I haven't had that pleasure yet.

The whole course is brutal in a strong wind, but the stout summer wind makes 15-18 a severe test for anyone.  We played in a "flags lean over and kiss the green" wind one afternoon, and the course punished us all.  Our lowest handicapper that shot 79 at Bandon Dunes the day before failed to break 100.  It was nasty - the strongest steady wind I've faced at the resort in about 20 rounds.

[Jeff_Brauer]

And people here wonder why its so hard to maintain "original" intent of the gca.  Bascially people start asking questions like these about after the third round played on any course.  And some answer, yes!

[David Botimer]

And people here wonder why its so hard to maintain "original" intent of the gca.  Bascially people start asking questions like these about after the third round played on any course.  And some answer, yes!

Jeff,

Asking a question like this regarding Trails seem relevant to me in that, while the tee sheet at Bandon and Pacific is full for most of the summer months, you could drive a freight train through Trails 1st tee from 10a-1p most summer days.  It clearly gets far less play, and if I was Mike Keiser I'd probably want to know why.

As a matter of fact, I had the privilege of caddying for him this summer at Trails and he asked me essentially the question posed by this thread.  I'm not so arrogant as to think my ideas to him will ever be implemented, but it does seem this venue could accept an occasional detour into "think like the owner" territory.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am all for thinking like the Owner. I would hate to see BT bulldozed under for lack of play.

Did Mike have any inkling that the other two courses having an ocean next to them might affect play?  Or does he think a few weak/tough holes makes the difference?

[Michael Dugger]

In a perfect world, if I had some incriminating pictures of Mike Keiser doing something unsavory with a goat, I would institute the following changes to Bandon Trails:

First, I'm turning #14 into a par 5.  I hate that green...I hate it I hate it I hate it!!!! (which must mean it's brilliant, right?)

So I'm going to place the new green behind the back tee of #15.  A well-hit tee shot up near the existing green will afford a view at the green and a chance to get home in two.

However, since the majority of tee shots on that hole trickle down the huge hill, the "average" drive is going to be obscured by the mass of trees lining the right side. I am going to create a split fairway around that clump which will afford all sorts of problems and options for those who did not stay on the top of the hill with their drive.

Of course, this means the tees to #15 will have to be moved over making that hole play a little straighter.

So yes, I still dislike #14!

The other major change I am going to make is a result of my disdain for the brutal hill climbing exercise that is "coming home" at BT.  My solution is I'm integrating #16 earlier into the round.

The least offensive way to do this is have the player go from #3 to #16, which makes #16 my new #4, since they essentially run parallel.  I am also moving the tees up a smidge on #16 which will shorten it.  The goal is to try and make #3 and #16 as different as possible since they will now play as back to back par 5's.  However, #3 is relatively flat, has bunkers all over the place, and is not really reachable.  Another virtue of playing #16 earlier is the golfer will get to see the pins and HUGE swale on the current 5th.  They will get a peak at #17 too.  To me, this is the coolest part of the whole golf course and I think giving the golfer a "sample peak" at it will help build anticipation for the closing stretch of holes. 

My new routing will therefore allow the golfer a respite from all the hill climbing by making #4 the new #15, instead of chugging up the current 16th.  Following the old 4 will be the old 5, although now this is going to be my #16.  Some may not agree with having back to back par 3's but if it works at Pac Dunes it will work at Bandon Trails.

The new arrangement will look like this on the front 4, 3, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 5, 4 par 38 and will ironically end the "front 9" after the current #10, which is right in front of the halfway house!

and like this on the back 4, 3, 4, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 4 par 34 which I think will leave a little better taste in people's mouth rather than getting abused playing the current "alpine" back.

After all the hillclimbing up to the current #14 tee, then down the hill, then up the fairway, the player will get a break playing the old #15, #4, #5 and #17 before going back up the hill on 18.

To those who think playing the current #5 and #17 back to back, I say big deal!  They are two of the best holes on the course and play dramatically different.  I think it would be an awesome finish and would not entale hardly any alteration to the existing course.

Whaddya think?

[Anthony Gray]

  Tom,

   At Cruden Bay there is a wonderful uphill walk from the 8th green to the 9th tee. And then at the top wow what a view of the water. To the west of the first fairwayat BT there is plenty of room for a finishing hole. As it is now you still have to make the same walk to get to the 18th fairway. I think it changes the course very little.

 

The hike up the hill from #6 green to #7 tee at Dornoch is pretty strenuous too and also with great views on the way.  There are actually a couple of benches along the way in case you need to stop for a blow!

  Bill,

  Good Man, It is not always about the golf is it.

  Anthony

[Bill_McBride]

  Tom,

   At Cruden Bay there is a wonderful uphill walk from the 8th green to the 9th tee. And then at the top wow what a view of the water. To the west of the first fairwayat BT there is plenty of room for a finishing hole. As it is now you still have to make the same walk to get to the 18th fairway. I think it changes the course very little.

 

The hike up the hill from #6 green to #7 tee at Dornoch is pretty strenuous too and also with great views on the way.  There are actually a couple of benches along the way in case you need to stop for a blow!

  Bill,

  Good Man, It is not always about the golf is it.

  Anthony

Luckily it's all part of the golf, laddie!

[Damon Groves]

We could all argue every course be better and would each have slightly different ways of doing it. However, I think each course has a certain personality and Bandon Trails certainly has one which is part of the charm. Would I have done some things different? Maybe but maybe not. I certainly don't know as much and C&C and trust they did the best with what was there and I think did a fantastic job. It just seems of the three Bandon courses Bandon Trials is the course (or at least some of the holes) that everyone loves to hate. But the fact that it is such a continued discussion says to me that Bandon Trails is a great course.

Is it a difficult course? Yes or at least it can be. I don't know of too many course here the slope is tougher from the green tees than the far back black ones. And when the wind picks up it can be a beast on 1-5 and 14-18 but isn't that the fun? While 14 seems to be the hole most people have an issue with don't we all just love getting up on that tee box trying to tame it? We know where to hit the tee shot and approach but easier said than done. I think that is part of what makes it quite a good hole even though a tough one.

All three Bandon courses are special and if you took any one of the courses alone we would be blown away. Together they are the best threesome at one location I know of and all are fun in their own way with their own different personality.

Will be back there in May. Can't wait.

[Tom_Doak]

I believe that 70% of the difference in volume of play at Bandon Trails is that it is perceived as a tougher walk, and nobody wants to have that tough walk, into the wind, coming home for their second 18 of the day.

The other 30% is that everyone likes to be out by the ocean late in the day, and/or it's too difficult for some people because it's narrower than the other two courses.

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