[Ken Fry]

Reading another thread, the comment was made about real estate having a big effect on course design in the U.S over those in the U.K.  Would the U.K. courses be worse if the seaside land was sacrificed for housing?

I'm curious about a little Crystal Downs history and will ask a hypothetical question.  Crystal Downs is my favorite golf course.  Some people feel the back nine is inferior compared to the front nine.  Would the back nine be better if some of the routing was along the bluffs of Lake Michigan?  Would MacKenzie and Maxwell have had access to that land or were there existing homes there?

Tom Doak?  Mike DeVries?  Any comments?

Ken

[Michael Dugger]

Could a Doak 10 have been better? 

Obviously nobody wants to touch this one!

[Tom_Doak]

Ken Fry:

The story goes that MacKenzie's routing for Crystal Downs supposedly had the 17th hole playing to a green site up along the bluff somewhere, and then the 18th hole playing back down to the foot of the hill below the pro shop (somewhere close to the start of the 10th fairway).  No one I know claims to have seen that routing ... I don't know if the story comes from the late Ron Haswell, who worked on the construction crew and was still on staff into the 1970's.

I've got a map of the property and it is still quite hard to visualize how #17 and #18 would have played.

So, would it have been better?  I think it's pretty good, so it's hard to say.  I'm sure some people would have preferred a big lake view at the end, but I don't think that necessarily means the course would've been improved.

I wonder the same thing about Yeamans Hall sometimes ... so much marsh frontage and yet the marsh frontage was saved for housing except for a green playing up to the marsh and the next tee heading back inland (#8 and #9) ... but it's hard to argue with the course they've got.

[Ken Fry]

Could a Doak 10 have been better? 

Obviously nobody wants to touch this one!

I love it.  You're right.  Could the Mona Lisa have been improved on?

But on the flip side, does a course become better when it's on water?  Given the phenominal job MacKenzie and Maxwell did at Crystal, could opinion be even better in some people's eyes with an unobstructed view of Lake Michigan?

Ken

[Mike Mosely]

Could a Doak 10 have been better? 

Obviously nobody wants to touch this one!

I love it.  You're right.  Could the Mona Lisa have been improved on?

Ken

She has no eyebrows...

What?  It's true.

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

With no disrespect -- once you start down the road of "if" then all variables need to be addressed. "If' one thing were changed then who's to say that other "ifs" would not have also been carried out.

The issue with "if" is it presupposes you can change just one item and everything else would have remained the same.

[Michael Dugger]

Could a Doak 10 have been better? 

Obviously nobody wants to touch this one!

I love it.  You're right.  Could the Mona Lisa have been improved on?

But on the flip side, does a course become better when it's on water?  Given the phenominal job MacKenzie and Maxwell did at Crystal, could opinion be even better in some people's eyes with an unobstructed view of Lake Michigan?

Ken

Count me as someone who doesn't necessarily think water is the "be all ends all" when it comes to scenery.

Does the Pacific enhance Bandon Dunes or Cypress Point?  Sure it does.

But I am hesitant to say it's more thrilling or breathtaking than the Canadian Rockies at Banff, the Sand Hills of Nebraska or a lush tropical rain forest.

I, personally, am a sucker for a good desert wash, or arroyo.  I happen to just love the look of Stone Eagle, for example.  Good scenery, or epic vantage points, come in all shapes and sizes, so to speak.  

[Brian_Sleeman]

I've asked this question myself, and from what I've heard, homes *were* planned on those bluffs as the club was in its formative stages.  The clubhouse was actually finished before the course itself, and its architect, Alexander McColl, would go on to design several of the homes inside The Downs.  A question I haven't asked is if any of the homes pre-date the clubhouse, but I bet there are at least a few.

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

I know you know this, but for the benefit of others, Crystal Downs was started as a golf development in 1925 or 26 (can't remember the year).  When MacKenzie arrived there was a nine-hole golf course in place, covering the area of the front nine up to the old road, along with the land for 10, 18, and the practice area.  I'm sure there were already some lots sold (if not some homes built) by the time MacKenzie saw it ... but I'm not sure if any of the lots on the upper part of the course were platted or sold by then.

[Bill_McBride]

Ken Fry:

The story goes that MacKenzie's routing for Crystal Downs supposedly had the 17th hole playing to a green site up along the bluff somewhere, and then the 18th hole playing back down to the foot of the hill below the pro shop (somewhere close to the start of the 10th fairway).  No one I know claims to have seen that routing ... I don't know if the story comes from the late Ron Haswell, who worked on the construction crew and was still on staff into the 1970's.

I've got a map of the property and it is still quite hard to visualize how #17 and #18 would have played.

So, would it have been better?  I think it's pretty good, so it's hard to say.  I'm sure some people would have preferred a big lake view at the end, but I don't think that necessarily means the course would've been improved.

I wonder the same thing about Yeamans Hall sometimes ... so much marsh frontage and yet the marsh frontage was saved for housing except for a green playing up to the marsh and the next tee heading back inland (#8 and #9) ... but it's hard to argue with the course they've got.

I don't know where the 17th green and 18th tee would have been located, but an 18th green set into the hillside near the 10th tee would have been a great finish.  #18 is a very good hole as laid out, but the hike up to the clubhouse would be less strenuous perhaps if broken up between a climb to the green and then on up to the clubhouse.

But yes, it might be like adding eyebrows to the Mona Lisa.......

[J_ Crisham]

Could CD have been better? My only criticisms of the course is the severity of the 10th green(maybe it was the pin placement the day we played, I succeeded in 4 putting) and the 17th hole. It just seemed out of character with the rest of the course. It could be described as quirky,if you don't care for it or sporty if it fits your eye. I did manage to par it though.This course is easily in my top 10 of the courses I've played in the world. Very special place. Jack

[Mike_Cirba]

Brian:

I know you know this, but for the benefit of others, Crystal Downs was started as a golf development in 1925 or 26 (can't remember the year).  When MacKenzie arrived there was a nine-hole golf course in place, covering the area of the front nine up to the old road, along with the land for 10, 18, and the practice area.  I'm sure there were already some lots sold (if not some homes built) by the time MacKenzie saw it ... but I'm not sure if any of the lots on the upper part of the course were platted or sold by then.

Tom,

Has anyone ever determined the architect for that original nine-holer?   Have you seen a routing?

Happy New Year!

[Ken Fry]

Ken:

With no disrespect -- once you start down the road of "if" then all variables need to be addressed. "If' one thing were changed then who's to say that other "ifs" would not have also been carried out.

The issue with "if" is it presupposes you can change just one item and everything else would have remained the same.

Matt,

I used Crystal Downs as an extreme example of a course with housing many would consider located on prime real estate.  Did the course in some way suffer from this?  Opinions of the course would widely favor "no," but as mentioned in prior posts, Crystal Downs would be outstanding regardless of proximity to water.

"If" scenarios always create a slippery slope, but why was the land used to route the course instead of 250 yards further north on the water?  Places like Cypress Point are outstanding on there own merit and the use of the Pacific Ocean contributes to the course's overall greatness.  Could Crystal Downs' back nine have also potentially benefited from a routing on the water or was that decision made prior to MacKenzie's and Maxwell's arrival?

I was not aware of the existing 9 hole course at Crystal Downs so I appreciate Tom passing on this information.  As he mentioned regarding Yeaman's Hall, we can sometimes wonder if different decisions were made, but it's hard to argue with the course they have!

Ken

[Anthony Gray]

  Where were all you guys when I said Pinehurst would be better if you were not golfing in a neighborhood?

  Anthony

[Peter Pallotta]

Ken -

seems to me you're asking THE question of golf course analysis i.e. "Did the architect get the most out of the land?". 

It's the equivalent of Freud's "What do women want?"

As far as I can tell, no one has the answer to either....

Peter

And a good and peaceful New Year to my friends
 

[Anthony Gray]

  Golf is a game played in nature so the more you can bring that into design the better. Water views are superior to others if they do not comprimize the quality of the course. PB is better with No. 6 on the cliff then up the hill.

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Cirba:

I don't know if any designer did the original nine holes at Crystal Downs ... possibly it was Walkley Ewing, the developer.

I have never seen a routing for it but I've seen a couple of old pictures.  The chipping green down below #8 green (right of #10 fairway) is reputed to be one of the old original greens, and Fred Muller has shown me that a portion of the current #4 green (back left part) is probably one of the original nine greens.  There was an old road which cut through the fairways at #6, 7 and 8 (where all the big trees are lined up, from the dogleg point at #6 to the dogleg point at #8), and I am guessing that was the original boundary of the course until MacKenzie was there and did a routing and they changed the road.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks for the additional information.   

In the photos you've seen, did the original nine-holer architecture look amateurish?

[Ronald Montesano]

Peter. women want to get the most out of the land

Mona, where are your eyelashes?

[Ken Fry]

Ken -

seems to me you're asking THE question of golf course analysis i.e. "Did the architect get the most out of the land?". 

Peter,

Am I questioning if MacKenzie did a good job??  That was never my intention.  The back 9 at Crystal demonstrates architectural genius.  That portion of the course was not blessed with land similar to the front nine.  My question is how much of the land was he allowed to use.  Was the land directly on Lake Michigan an option?  Investigating parameters would be a better explanation, not questioning judgment.

Ken

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