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Jay Flemma

Dallas area golf
« on: December 31, 2008, 09:59:06 AM »
So here's the brief update so far:

Cowboys G.C (Brauer) - much better than I expected.  I thought I'd be drowning in Cowboys gear, Cowboys fans, Cowboys glitter, Cowboys glam.

No way...it was all tastefully done.  Think Tom Landry, not Hollywood Henderson.  There were a few bits of memorabilia, but it wasn't the Mel Renfro burger and the Preston Pearson driving range and the fifth hole brought to you by Danny White.  The only nose-tweak was the star painted in the middle of the fourth fairway, but that's just there so one guy in your foursome can be T.O., and the other can be George Teague and you can recreate that "not in my house" moment yourselves while waiting for the green to clear. 

Really, though, the experience was warm and friendly.  Vic Rodanthe, the pro is a super guy, bright, affable, and sincere, a pro's pro.  (Ex Coloradan, so that explains it).  You can play golf for around $100 straight up, if you want lunch, balls, non-alcoholic drinks, and use of the locker room all day...and we're talking all you can eat here...$165-185.  It's high, especially for the recession, but not unfair, you get great golf, good food, and nice digs.  You can't play it every day, but it's nice to visit and 10 minutes from the airport.

Brauer delivered an excellent, interesting course.  It's an out and back routing.  The greens have some good contour.  There are plenty of strategic elements, such as diagonal angles.  On the par-3s he sometimes tests distance control (3&6) and sometimes tests accuracy (14, 16)  Jeff, does three have some elements of a short?  Shaping, the depressed right side of the green.

We played the middle tees.  All the par-3s played roughly the same distance.  But it was good they were short.  As a bogey golfer, you get tired of hitting 5-wood all day, maybe if you're lucky a 5-iron or hybrid, so it was also a welcome relief to have a day like that.  When I get my handicap down, I can always move back to the tips later.

5 is a great long par four with terrific horizontal sweep to the fairway.  8 is a great reachable par-5 with alternating shot requirements.  I'm of two minds about 14.  Its a short par-4 with a cool shaped fairway swerving all over and a center line bunker.  I guess its a good par 3-1/2, right Jeff?  18 is terrific with its diagonal line of bunkers bi-secting the fwy.



Colonial (Maxwell, resto = Foster)

Does this course look like Southern Hills to you?  I know that GD is saying Maxwell didn't have as much to do with the entire course as opposed to the Horrible Horseshoe and that - in some circles - John Bredemus is credited with more of the design than Maxwell, but the two courses look eerily similar, with the exception that Maxwell's greens have been preserved at Southern and the greens at Colonial are more sedate (if just as fast!).  The same man did the restorations, and the restoration plan followed similar lines as well - pinch in the bunkers, move some back from the tee, move some dog-legs back.  They also sloped some landing areas for the pros back towards the tee to limit how far the drive traveled.  I'm still analyzing what I think about this, it may take some time, I need to really consider it...

Wanna know a great feature?  When you stand on the greens and look back, you can't see any bunkers.  Maxwell learned that from Mackenzie.  (I learned it from Tony Nysse:):)

The conditioning was outstanding.  Biscuit brown!  I love biscuit-brown and getting to play a course that you'd ordinarily never see like that was amazing, beautiful, and fun.  It was also educational because the shaping is easier to see.  So all you from across the pond should come out to Dallas for New Years week and play here.  We had an outstanding day.  The food was terrific, the conditions terrific, the course looked surreal - like a windspept heath lined with phantasmagoric dead trees.  It was a unique round because we played her in conditions no one sees - conditions that brought out her shaping much more than if she was rough covered and the trees were in bloom.

3 approach:




5 approach.  Colonial looks ghostly in gold...almost like Halloween:)  Cool.




Hidden Gem award:  Turtle Hill.  It's in Muenster, Texas (Muenster!?)  Which means its six miles from anywhere.  A pilot named Dick Murphy saw it from the sky, bought it, routed it, and built it and its terrific.  Its totally minimalist, all the severe features of the property are still there

It's wonderfully quirky. The par-4 second requires a fade off the tee to avoid an over hanging specimen tree on the second, then you turn right and go two clubs uphill.  I don't like it, but with 16 other good holes, and the fact that its what was naturally there, I see why he kept it, it connects him to the rest pf the terrific routing, and its different from every other hole without being too unlike the course's general theme.

Guys, you should go out there and play it and report back.  At $27 twilight, $35 high rate, its a steal.  I really thoguht it was great, a true hidden gem, outstanding value and really natural, with deep ravines, long ridges, and quarries.  Its a great piece of property.

I'll have articles up around the web.  Wyatt H, Mike W, Dick daleyt and a few other friends will post them and discuss them.

I' m still out here four more days, so email me to get together, jaymusiclaw@yahoo.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 03:56:09 PM by Jay Flemma »

Matt_Ward

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2008, 11:13:41 AM »
Jay:

Don't know if you'll be there -- but a trip to Big D without a visit to Dallas National and Brook Hollow is a bit defeating. You get a view of the past via Tillie and one of TF's finest courses on a site that is truly remarkable.

Jay Flemma

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2008, 11:30:55 AM »
what is your opinion of Northwood?  Golf Club of Dallas?  Turtle Hill?

I think you'd dig The Turtle.

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2008, 11:45:12 AM »
The greens have some good contour. 

But are they Bob Hayes fast?   ;)

Mike Mosely

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2008, 12:09:08 PM »
Wow, nice pix Jay. 

I have a question.  I once walked a site backwards and saw all the bunkers I couldn't see going forwards (old course in he south, a raynor).  I thought that was supposed to be even better...even more skillful.  Aren't you supposed to wlak it backwards so you can see the hazards? I'm confused? ???  Which is better or do they both have attributes?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2008, 03:28:11 PM »
Golf Club of Dallas?  Is there a new course in north Texas I am not aware of?

Nothwood is a wonderful members' course, a bit tight in places, but quite a bit of fun.

Turtle Hill never had the reputation to make the drive worthwhile.

I think Colonial has much more of a Plummer (Bredemus's construction superintendent) look and feel than Maxwell.  Before Great Southwest was "butchered" (prior to Brauer), a number of Colonial members played there regularly because they saw the similarities and thought the site was a bit better (not quite as flat as Colonial).   I think that a comparison of Colonial to Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes finds numerous dissimilarities, but not so many to GSW prior to the mid-80s.     

Jay Flemma

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2008, 03:57:00 PM »
Lou, what are the dis-similarities between SH and Colonial?

Mike Mosely

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2008, 03:57:48 PM »
Why did they name the course Colonial?

Sam Morrow

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2008, 04:46:22 PM »
Lou,

Golf Club of Dallas is the old Oak Cliff. They changed the name a few years ago.

Jay,

 I've played Southern Hills a few times and Colonial quite a few times and they do look similar. That said Southern Hills looks bigger to me. Maybe it's because there a few hills, I'd never thought about it until you said it though.

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2008, 05:04:36 PM »
I would put Northwood slightly behind Brook Hollow (I have not played Preston Trail) in the pecking order of traditional, older Dallas clubs.  It is well worth the time to play if you get an invite.  Dallas National is a cut above in my view.

If I remember from past postings, you were going to try and drive out to Frankston to play Pine Dunes.  That would be well worth your efforts.  I lived in the area for sixteen years and have never made it up to Turtle Hill.  I'm going to do so in the near future after reading your comments.

Sam Morrow

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2008, 05:08:16 PM »
I would put Northwood slightly behind Brook Hollow (I have not played Preston Trail) in the pecking order of traditional, older Dallas clubs.  It is well worth the time to play if you get an invite.  Dallas National is a cut above in my view.

If I remember from past postings, you were going to try and drive out to Frankston to play Pine Dunes.  That would be well worth your efforts.  I lived in the area for sixteen years and have never made it up to Turtle Hill.  I'm going to do so in the near future after reading your comments.

Who designed Northwood, I hate to say I don't know.

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2008, 05:19:13 PM »
Northwood was designed by Diddel.  I believe Weiskopf and Moorish have done some work on it as well, but not sure on that.

Sam Morrow

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2008, 05:36:10 PM »
Northwood was designed by Diddel.  I believe Weiskopf and Moorish have done some work on it as well, but not sure on that.

Has Diddel done any other major work?

Jay Flemma

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2008, 05:43:43 PM »
I'm at Pine Dunes tomorrow, and OCGCC on Fri.  Yes SM, Southern Has a few bigger hills.  There are a few holes at colonial that are rolling like 10 and 17-18.  But 3-4-5 are flat. 

I have to say, you could see a long way across the windswept plain of trees with the trees bare.  You could see whole expanses of the course.

They should have a Halloween tournament and December tournament to play in those conditions.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2008, 05:44:11 PM »
It has been awhile since I've played Southern Hills, but just stepping on #1 the course seems to have a very different, more expansive feel than Colonial.  Perhaps it's the much greater elevation changes at SH, but, as I recall the greens are quite a bit larger, not as much built-up, and with more internal contouring and slope.  I don't remember SH's bunkering being as dramatic and so tight into the putting surfaces.  Colonial felt tighter, more constrained, and the doglegs seemed sharper.  It also seems to play much shorter though the yardages are not dissimilar.

Re: Northwood, I am fairly sure that Diddel was the original architect, though Ralph Plummer did considerable renovations prior to the U.S. Open back in the 1950s.  I also think that Crenshaw did some work on the greens and surrounds in the late 90s early 2000s.  The course is constrained with a major street running through it, and the routing suffers as a result.

Preston Trail is a strong course that's exquisitely maintained.  I hear that a major renovation has been in planning for years (perhaps they've already pulled the trigger).   I watched a baseball game with a member and it was clear that Dallas National jumping to the top of the pack did not set well.

The old Oak Cliff CC had some good holes, but it never rang my bell.  If it is a Maxwell Jr. course, that apple fell pretty far from the tree.  I've played it post renovation but pre-name change, and it was pretty much the same course as far as I could tell- tight, short, heavily treed.  

  

Sam Morrow

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2008, 05:46:55 PM »
It has been awhile since I've played Southern Hills, but just stepping on #1 the course seems to have a very different, more expansive feel than Colonial.  Perhaps it's the much greater elevation changes at SH, but, as I recall the greens are quite a bit larger, not as much built-up, and with more internal contouring and slope.  I don't remember SH's bunkering being as dramatic and so tight into the putting surfaces.  Colonial felt tighter, more constrained, and the doglegs seemed sharper.  It also seems to play much shorter though the yardages are not dissimilar.

Re: Northwood, I am fairly sure that Diddel was the original architect, though Ralph Plummer did considerable renovations prior to the U.S. Open back in the 1950s.  I also think that Crenshaw did some work on the greens and surrounds in the late 90s early 2000s.  The course is constrained with a major street running through it, and the routing suffers as a result.

Preston Trail is a strong course that's exquisitely maintained.  I hear that a major renovation has been in planning for years (perhaps they've already pulled the trigger).   I watched a baseball game with a member and it was clear that Dallas National jumping to the top of the pack did not set well.

The old Oak Cliff CC had some good holes, but it never rang my bell.  If it is a Maxwell Jr. course, that apple fell pretty far from the tree.  I've played it post renovation but pre-name change, and it was pretty much the same course as far as I could tell- tight, short, heavily treed.  

  

Lou what are your thoughts about courses like Royal Oaks, DAC, and the old Columbian?

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2008, 06:26:28 PM »
How does Dallas Country Club rank in terms of old Dallas clubs? I thought that was where the big rollers hung out?

Sam Morrow

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2008, 06:27:22 PM »
Jay,

Glad to hear there has not been a mass suicide in Big D after their shameful performance against the Eagles.  I was a big Dallas fan when I was a kid but my kids have converted me to the Eagles and I am glad, Dallas is a terribly coached team, run by a moron, with players of incredible talent...kind of a microcosim (did I spell that right?) of our country! 

I agree with Matt, don't miss Brookhollow, beyond that I am not schooled in Dallas golf.  Randy Smith at Royal Oaks is an Odessa boy, I knew him, knew his brother better.  I think Randy is J. Leonard's coach. Randy actually had his fingers cut off in a mowing accident and they were reattached, not good for a golfer.

I played in front of Randy 2 years ago at DAC in the NTPGA Pro-Assistant, he is not a very good player. He was wearing a big back brace that day.

Sam Morrow

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2008, 06:28:57 PM »
How does Dallas Country Club rank in terms of old Dallas clubs? I thought that was where the big rollers hung out?

DCC Is a wonderful course and club (Robert Warren is our resident expert on the place) with lots of great people. It's on a very small parcel of land in a very cool area of town but I don't think I'd rank it with the big boys in town. I haven't played all of them but there are a few that rank about DCC.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2008, 08:16:20 PM »
Sam,

I like both courses at DAC.  They're not great, but I could be happy as a member there.

Royal Oaks is a difficult, tight, heavily treed course.  I am not a fan of Don January and Billy Martindale, but this is by far their best effort.  It's been awhile since I've played it and would need to get back there to render a more definitive opinion.  As I remember it, I left feeling that it is a good test of golf, but not a place I necessarily wanted to play regularly.

I played Columbian after it was renovated (but prior to the most recent changes).  I thought it was a challenging course that probably doesn't get the attention it deserves.  I would put it in the same category as the Gold course at DAC, and a little below the Blue course.

I've never played DCC.  It had the reputation of being a pleasant course that's in excellent shape. 

Andy Troeger

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2008, 08:24:05 PM »
Northwood was designed by Diddel.  I believe Weiskopf and Moorish have done some work on it as well, but not sure on that.

Has Diddel done any other major work?

Bill Diddel has done a number of courses in the midwest. Most of them are good, but not great designs that are fun to play. I think I've played something like 17 of his courses, all in Indiana. The best of those that I believe are attributed to him that I've seen are Fort Wayne CC and Meridian Hills CC.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2008, 08:26:53 PM »
The Dallas Cowboys are the soul-less Evil Empire, much like the New York Yankees in baseball.

Their ass-kicking this past weekend was one of the most enjoyable sports events in my lifetime.   We're taking bets in Philly on the over/under of six months til Jessica Simpson drops Tony Romo like yet another Dallas fumble returned 80 yards down the sidelines for yet another Eagles touchdown.  ;)  ;D

Of course, anyone with two eyes can see that the Cowboys are evil pigskin incarnate.   Just look at their owner...the one and only Sith Lord the Evil Intergalactic Emperor   :o ;) ;D

« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 08:33:07 PM by MikeCirba »

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2008, 08:40:16 PM »
I have been out of town and missing out on the fun.Since Cowboys overseeds and is Bermuda it is better conditioned in the summer.I like Brook Hollow a lot more than Northwood.DAC Blue more than Gold.The Colonial pictures are a good representation of winter golf here.Brook Hollow is my favorite Dallas course.Lakewood is second.Randy also had a hip replacement a few years ago.As a river bottom course,Royal Oaks is pretty good.That is my unfocused paragraph.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2008, 08:44:51 PM »
I have been out of town and missing out on the fun.Since Cowboys overseeds and is Bermuda it is better conditioned in the summer.I like Brook Hollow a lot more than Northwood.DAC Blue more than Gold.The Colonial pictures are a good representation of winter golf here.Brook Hollow is my favorite Dallas course.Lakewood is second.Randy also had a hip replacement a few years ago.As a river bottom course,Royal Oaks is pretty good.That is my unfocused paragraph.

When it comes to Dallas golf...in Mike I trust...

Can't wait to play again in the new year.

Andy Troeger

Re: Dallas area golf
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2008, 08:49:45 PM »
How is The Tribute?

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