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TEPaul

Mike:

Instead of me typing it all over again just read post #s 18, 45 and 51 and see if you can figure it out all by your lonesome.

The clue is----what if the locals (the proverbial town idiot adage) made those things way back when and they've been there ever since? After-all Wilson did ask Oakley back in the fall of 1913 if they could or should stay and have grass grown on them after having been purified of salt (via a lime application by Clarence G and the local idiots) after a half year or a year. Remember?

Mike_Cirba

Tom,

The extensive road building on this golf course would have generated at least 10,000 yards of fill. That might also explain the presence of so much mounding. They might have even used the excavant from the road construction to cap the salt contaminated fill.

Bradley,

Apparently Geist was such an egomaniac he had roads built all over the place (thankfully, most of them are just sand and shell) so that he could drive his limo all over the course.

Mike_Cirba

Tom,

Yes, yes you did.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 09:02:25 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Mike:

Didn't I already say that?  ;)

Kyle Harris

I've spent some time waiting to jump into this thread as Seaview is a course I've kept close to my heart and rarely let those feelings out to see the light of day.

I think most everyone goes through a moment in their life where they realize that some aspect of themselves had changed and things would never be the same after the realization.

I was standing on the first tee of Seaview's Bay Course when this happened, and it was the first time I realized that tournament golf, for me, was the only thing to motivate me to play my best.

And what a first hole, none like it that I can remember at this time for a few reasons:

1. The top shot bunkers on the right side. How often do opening holes rightly obscure such piddly hazards as OB and bunkers? The first at Seaview does. It's a short hole, 350 yards or so, but it's certainly not a comfortable tee shot. I remember taking 3-iron and not fully committing to the line, I remember blading the ball into the bunker... I also remember saving bogey. But to me, this sort of obfuscation right out of the gate is something missing from a lot of golf courses. I remember actively thinking about this one bunker that is really nothing more than a 140 yard carry from the tee and wondering what lay beyond.

2. It's level. While not necessarily rare - how often do we encounter a perfectly level, but not flat, opener?

3. It's all business at the first tee. Since the course is across the street from the clubhouse and putting greens, the first tee is blessed uncrowded with anybody other than people ready to play golf.

I'll participate more, but I think the first hole deserves bit more attention.

Oh, and Mike - who is that half-possessed bald demon present in all those photos? Were you being stalked by the patron demon of every Doak 1 in existance?

Mike_Cirba

Mike:

Instead of me typing it all over again just read post #s 18, 45 and 51 and see if you can figure it out all by your lonesome.

The clue is----what if the locals (the proverbial town idiot adage) made those things way back when and they've been there ever since? After-all Wilson did ask Oakley back in the fall of 1913 if they could or should stay and have grass grown on them after having been purified of salt (via a lime application by Clarence G and the local idiots) after a half year or a year. Remember?

Tom,

Gotcha...I just don't know the perimeters of the holes well enough to tell you specifics of what holes George may have shot those photos on, 'cept the two I mentioned.   Perhaps he can chime back in if he sees this.

Personally, before walking the course again to take photos this past weekend I'd only played there once prior, about 1990 or so a few years after the formerly private club became a public-available "resort" course.

However, I have very fond, and very sentimental reasons for doing this labor of love anyway, which I'll explain.

Back in the July of 1973 I had been playing golf exactly two years and my brothers and I were absolutely enthralled with the game, me in particular.   And, at age 40 or so, our dad had just started playing the previous summer and became equally captivated.   He was also going through a mid-life crisis.

It was a few weeks before my 15th birthday, and we were on our annual weeklong summer vacation at Brigantine, NJ, a barrier island off of Atlantic City.   

Every day my brothers and dad would get up at the crack of dawn to wake the Moonlight Motel owner Carmen Saia and get our free tickets (part of the deal with staying at the Motel) validated to go and play at the Brigantine Country Club (Stiles & Van Kleek, and another sentimental favorite) where we would go and play at least 27 and usually 36 holes before returning and meeting my sun-burned mother and her mother to spend an hour or so at the beach or pool before dinner.

We thought we were in heaven.

Each night we would eat dinner at the Island Diner, which was reasonable cheap family food and where I could get fried shrimp each night before trying to chase young French-Canadian girls who didn't love us, go for late night walks on the beach, get a sundae at Dairy Queen, and get up and do it again.

However, I had to up the ante.   

Being a brat, I thought I'd see if we could go for lobster tail, which the diner didn't have, and which I'd aquired a taste for from my late grandfather, who periodically would treat the both of us.   My parents, wanting to make their son happy on vacation one night asked the waitress if there was some place nearby where we could satisfy my craving.

She told us about a restaurant inland past Smithville called Oyster Bay that would do the trick.   It was late in our vacation week on a beautiful summer evening, and we decided to take the drive.

My dad, who had recently taken to the 70s in full color, had traded in his formerly drab attire for yellow pants, hawaiian shirts, pink hats, and wide, white belts.   He was also driving his mid-life crisis car of choice, a 1972 solid ORANGE Chevy Malibu, with black interior, and no air conditioning.

Piled into this car was my dad, my mom, my grandmother, my older brother, my younger brother, and me, and a trunk full of four sets of golf clubs and a week's worth of luggage for six people.   It defied the laws of physics and the physical limitations of the universe.

Along our drive, we turned onto route 9 and soon we passed through the town of Absecon.   Suddenly, our eyes were directed to the sight of xanadu on our right, for visible along and through tall hedges was a shining emerald unlike we had ever seen before in our glory days of public golf at farmland courses in northeastern PA.   No, this was a spectacle, full of sweeping mounds and deep whitish-yellow sand bunkers intersecting into green paths of glory with a blue-green bay out at the horizon.

My dad stopped the car and turned around.

Spying a road that ran along what I now know to be the first and second holes, and we drove until we found another road to our left that took us right onto the course proper.   I believe we actually drove across the second fairway short of the green, continued on probably another hole or two until we came upon a group just teeing off at what I believe is the 8th hole.

Off to the left was a clubhouse that looked like somewhere the President of the Unitd States should live or at least the Rockerfellers or Vanderbilts.   My mom was freaking out, telling my dad we were going to be arrested or minimally detained overnight in some cell for people who go where they aren't supposed to.

My dad, oblivious to her pleading, and fixated on the beauty of golf nirvana drove the OrangeMobile up along the players who seemed to be fastidiously ignoring us, but then caught the attention of their white-jumpsuited African American caddie who looked to be about 7 feet tall, rolled down the window, and asked, "Is this a public course?"

His answer was brief, curt, and stated as if we had asked him if the sky was bright pink.

"No suh".

Each of us slinked down further into our seats as my dad tried to figure out the quickest, safest way to extract us from the middle of the Seaview Country Club.

Today, in my mind's eye, I can still remember that feeling of being somewhere we weren't supposed to be, yet feeling somewhat strangely proud of my dad for his passionate committment to a game we had newly discovered, and that we had yet to learn was going to provide a source of familial companionship and father-sons togetherness and camaraderie for the next forty years.


Kyle,

Nice you've joined us.   Hope you enjoyed the story

The bald demon is the ghost of Kyle future, I believe.  ;)

Back in 1974 when this story took place said author had long thick hair down to his shoulders.  ;D

Kyle Harris

Mike,

I think that story should only be read with The Doobie Brothers in the background.

Mike_Cirba

Mike,

I think that story should only be read with The Doobie Brothers in the background.

Actually, I believe the AM radio was playing, "Me and Mrs. Jones", followed by "Alone Again, Naturally".

Seriously. 

TEPaul

"But to me, this sort of obfuscation right out of the gate is something missing from a lot of golf courses. I remember actively thinking about this one bunker that is really nothing more than a 140 yard carry from the tee and wondering what lay beyond."

Kyle:

Actually The Creek Club's opening hole was designed with that kind of bunker (actually two of them) at about the same distance obscuring the fairway or most of it along the right (no OB though). Flynn added another to the left side of the chain obscuring probably the whole fairway from the tee. Back in the 1940s the club essentially took them out (even though the old depressions are still very visible) and not just on that hole but the first three. The meeting minutes even give the reason why they removed them. Nevertheless, today it still isn't that easy to see the fairway just easier than it once was.


Kyle Harris

"But to me, this sort of obfuscation right out of the gate is something missing from a lot of golf courses. I remember actively thinking about this one bunker that is really nothing more than a 140 yard carry from the tee and wondering what lay beyond."

Kyle:

Actually The Creek Club's opening hole was designed with that kind of bunker (actually two of them) at about the same distance obscuring the fairway or most of it along the right (no OB though). Flynn added another to the left side of the chain obscuring probably the whole fairway from the tee. Back in the 1940s the club essentially took them out (even though the old depressions are still very visible) and not just on that hole but the first three. The meeting minutes even give the reason why they removed them. Nevertheless, today it still isn't that easy to see the fairway just easier than it once was.



Must be a Long Island thing as I believe the 1st at Garden City is similarly blind.

Mike_Cirba

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWeHR4cuMVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_P-v1BVQn8


Enough nostalgia for one night....holes 15 - 18 to come.  ;D


TEPaul

Kyle:

Not exactly, it's just sort of hard the first time to figure out which way to go or which way you should go with various clubs. To me the deception is sort of "distance/spatial" not exactly hidden but it certainly is a pretty unique look and sensation standing on that tee for the first time.

Mike_Cirba

In thinking about tee shots where either something uncomfortable intrudes in the foreground, or the landing area is blind, or mostly both, Seaview is chock full of them.

You find this on 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 14, 17 and 18.

I prefer this type of tee shot, actually to the "see everything right out in front of you" that guys like Dr. Mackenzie (and today, Rees Jones and Jack Nicklaus) advocate.   

I'm not sure how Mackenzie could have railed against blindness and then praised the virtues of The Old Course.   
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 11:10:21 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Moving on to the 15th , a short par four dogleg right to a tiny green set at another diagonal angle away from the shortest route.





[/img]


From the tee, there is no sight of the green which is blocked by trees on the right.



Although the temptation is to go right, the best line is out towards the distant bunkers down the left side;



A drive down the right leaves a problematic approach to a tiny green that is quite shallow from that angle.    Note how close the bunker appears to be to the green.



A drive that skirts the bunkers down the left opens up a much better approach angle.



Note the optical illusion of the right side bunker, which is a long way from the tiny green.



The tiny target from closer.



Missing this green to either side can lead to a quick game of ping-pong.



From behind the green, the orientation of the green towards towards the outside of the dogleg is very apparent.



JeffTodd

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Mike,

Thank you for this thread. I'm late to the game, but I've enjoyed getting caught up. I have many photos, (some mine, some not) which I'll try to add at some point. Below is one of #15. I think it really shows how narrow the green is.

Mike_Cirba

This 1920 aerial shows the large area of sandy waste that the hole turned around.   Today, it's a single formalized bunker much smaller in size.  



It's difficult to tell if Ross's suggestion to build a new green was ever followed.   Certainly todays green is tiny as Ross wanted, but the original hole description pre-Ross also seems to have been tiny, referring to "the small green nestling in pines".

And although today's green is one of the more interesting ones, with lots of little micro-undulations, there is nothing as interesting, bold, or compellng as Ross's instruction to "run a depression all through the green 1 foot 6 inches and 10 feet wide"!   :o


Jeff Todd,

Welcome and I'm glad you're enjoying!  ;D

Please feel free to add any and all photos!! 


One other curiousity is that the Wilson hole is listed as 275 yards, the Ross hole was drawn as about 300, and today's is 325.     Probably the tee moved back because the green is in a constricted space area.

also...the green evidently used to be surrounded by "rough irregular hummocks" and "rough sand", based on the descriptions on the Ross drawing.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 05:32:44 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Next, we come to the 16th, and we find the earliest version I know of outside of St. Andrews where a par five features a Hells Half Acre type crossing bunker feature that the second shot must either carry or layup short of on a par five.







The broad expanse of fairway from the tee on 16, with the only trouble coming for a drive overcooked to the left...



..where a drive catching the fairway bunker leaves no chance of carrying the cross bunkers on the second.



A drive down the middle however, with today's technology, not only allows one to carry the cross bunkers but the distant flag is also reachable.



The cross bunkers, looking from right to left.   The large mounds around the green are evident in the distance.



The approach shot most people face for their third.



Most of the trouble around the green are the mounds, although there is a bunker to the right.



The green looking back towards the left hand cross bunker.




The 1920 aerial shows much the same hole as todays..


Mike_Cirba

Of any hole at Seaview, the 16th seems to have been influenced by Ross's recommendations.

The original hole was supposedly 500 yards, and at that distance, the green may have been a bit too close to the line of play for the opening tee shot on the first hole.

Ross recommended moving the green "back" 20 yards and slightly about 17 yards to the right from the original line, which on his drawing shows the green starting exactly 100 yards from the middle crossing bunker, which is exactly where it starts today.

He also recommended that large mounds be built behind the green, again likely for safety reasons, which was done.   However, if a plateau for the back half of the green was ever built per Ross's drawing and advice, no evidence exists today, sadly.


Mike_Cirba

For anyone who saw the genesis of this thread over on the original Hugh Wilson one, my apologies for the redundance of the analysis of the 17th hole.





[/img]


From the tee, the strategic play is to skirt the nest of bunkers down the right side.







A drive down the shorter left side is never a good play.



Even if you crush one...



A big drive skirting past the right side bunker leaves this preferred angle.



This tiny pot short right is one of the many whimsical touches at Seaview.



A hidden matching pot behind the right side awaits the poor approach through the green from an oblique angle approaching from the left;



A look from just short of the left-front bunker shows what is a beautifully simple green strategy, masterfully executed.




On the 1920 aerial, the large area of sand can be seen along the right of the fairway, and the green is on the far left.



Mike_Cirba

Ross wanted a full 12 yards added to a back section of the green, increasing the front to back greenspace to what he drew as 45 yards total.   Today, the green depth is 28 yards, and that back plateau section seemingly was never built.

He also recommended the addition of small pots short right of the green and back right.   This is deceiving because they exist today, yet they aren't on the 1920 aerial or other subsequent aerials, nor are they in the 1990 yardage book of Seaview I own, so they were evidently put in during the most recent "restoration" work; obviously for the first time.

Basically, there is no historical evidence that Ross's proposed changes to 17 ever took place.

Mike_Cirba

At last, we come to the 18th.   The good news is Jen hasn't divorced me over the past week, although she has clear grounds.   :P ;)

The final hole is a par five, and many of the themes one has experienced throughout the course again come into play.   The hole runs along busy Highway 9, protected by a tall hedge along the right.







Although the green sits down in the right hand corner, once again the most direct route to the hole at Seaview is usually not the best one..



The right side is minefield of bunkers...



...which also protect balls from a worse and more dangerous fate going into the public road OB to the right.



A drive to the fairway left leaves a broad, but narrowing expanse to consider on the second shot.



Two bunkers, one on each side, tighten things at 100 yards from the center of the green.



Not much room between these two bunkers, with a view of the stately, exquisite clubhouse across the street.



A view of the final green from the left rough.   Evident as in the 1914 photo is the left greenside bunker, and the mound to the right of the surface, but it's also clear that both the bunker and the area mowed as green have shrunk a good deal over the intervening near-century.



From left of the green..



What's wrong with mounds?   Nothing, when they are randomly placed with varied shaping, and not overdone.



A final look back on a fun trip through early US architectural history, however short by today's standards..




The hole in 1920, very much like today's, running left to right.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 11:31:00 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

On the 18th, Ross recommended very little, but he did ask that a plateau be built on the back of the green, which wasn't done, as well as flattening the somewhat abrupt approach to the green, which thankfully wasn't done either. 

High grass mounds do exist behind the green; whether this was done at Ross's suggestion or to protect the 1st tee just behind is unknown.

One other point of interest on the Ross drawing is that it seems the bunkering at 100 yards was originally across the length of the fairway.   Although Ross made no recommendation to change that, by 1920 it was split into two adjacent bunkers, one on each side.   It also appears the the original first bunker off the tee, which was already there when Ross was asked for his ideas, also almost crossed the breadth of the fairway.

Mike_Cirba

Thank God this thread is almost complete.   It was way more work than I'd imagined when I first thought about doing it, and of likely dubious value.

It does seem based on everything we've seen that there was very, very little Donald Ross work ever done at Seaview, although he did offer any number of interesting suggestions that likely would have improved the course had they been done.

Tomorrow I'll speculate on some of the reasons I think that Ross's plans largely went by the wayside.

However, that likely will have very little impact on the purported historical advertised heritage of Seaview and I'm sure that much like Pocono Manor, there is way too much marketing invested in the perpetuation of the Ross connection to switch horses now.

In a way, it reminds me of Joe Bausch's recent findings that Willie Park Jr., and not William Flynn, was responsible for the design of Philmont North.   The "Flynn connection" is so strong within Philadelphia that rather than embrace this information it seems to be purposefully ignored, at least to date.

That's sort of odd, given that Park is basically a rock-star to anyone with a more sophisticated understanding of golf course architecture.   As in the case of Seaview with a now well-documented Hugh Wilson pedigree, it's not like these clubs/courses are trading in Donald Ross for Joe Schmoe of Paducah.    One could even argue that they are trading up, especially when one considers how rare actual Hugh Wilson designs are, or how much Willie Park's work had direct influence on what became the Golden Age of design.

Nevertheless, the reality is that Ross is a household name, where Park and Wilson are not, so I don't really expect that this will be anything but our little secret.


Neil_Crafter

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Nice tour Mike, and I'm sure there have a been a lot of readers with nothing of substance to add (like me) who haven't posted.
Neil

Mike_Cirba

Nice tour Mike, and I'm sure there have a been a lot of readers with nothing of substance to add (like me) who haven't posted.
Neil

Thanks very much for the feedback, Neil.

My one disappointment with the thread is that the pictures, which were already less than stellar given the poor early morning, winter lighting, were not sized larger.   I think having both the pictures (showing more detail) and the Ross drawings sized larger would have helped people's understanding.   I'll need to figure out how to do that going forward.