[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Sorry for the glare of this photo, but it does give a good idea of the vast areas of raw sand and other pits that were evident on Seaview by 1920.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I don't know but I sense that unless constantly tended to these vast sandy areas that were likely unearthed during construction tend to grow over fairly quickly.

I agree about the courses you named but I also think Cypress Point is exhibit A..

Here's a closer view of some of the cool stuff at Seaview in 1920.

[TEPaul]

"What troubles me most about Seaview, Hollywood, Pine Valley, Garden City, NGLA and Shinnecock is the loss of the expansive and extensive bunkering."

Pat:

That's a really good question and a most interesting one from an historical perspective. On some of those old courses all that sand area we see on old aerials may not have been designed bunkering but just natural sand based areas on those courses that were not grassed (no top soil uses on them). They may've never intended it to remain that way and so it was probably totally unmaintained and just tended to vegetate over time. One does need to consider that question on a course by course basis though as the naturally sandy based sites may've been that way initially but keeping that look may've never been anyone's intention.

EXHIBIT A---to the left of the 12th hole (Post #146) that sand based area that is not on the golf course! 

[Mike_Cirba]

EXHIBIT A---to the left of the 12th hole (Post #146) that sand based area that is not on the golf course! 

Tom,

I believe that's the cotton fields.

[astavrides]

Mike Cirba,

What troubles me most about Seaview, Hollywood, Pine Valley, Garden City, NGLA and Shinnecock is the loss of the expansive and extensive bunkering.

The early aerials of all those courses are quite remarkable.

THE question is:  With detailed aerials depicting these wonderful golf courses in their pristine years, why haven't these courses attempted more extensive restorations of those marvelous features, those extensive and expansive bunkering complexes ?

Patrick,

I can go play Seaview right now for $19.00 after 12PM on Weekdays.

That is extremely cheap for a course like Seaview. When cash flow problems are the major concern I think the pedigree of the golf course is of a tertiary concern.

At least we know for a time when things are a bit more stable, however.

$29 according to the rates on the website, but point taken.  (of course, peak rate is $129 during the summer...)

[Chris_Blakely]

Mike,

On page 167 of George Thomas' 'Golf Architecture in America,' there is a picture of a punchbowl green at 'Sea View' the picture is credited as a Ross course with addistions by Wilson, Tillinghast and Robinson.  The green looks a lot differenet than anything I remeber there.

Chris

[Mike_Cirba]

Chris,

Any chance you can scan and post that pic here?

I'm ashamed to say I don't have that book.

Thanks!

[Mike_Cirba]

An interested friend was kind enough to send me a scan...



I'm virtually certain that's of the 5th green, and here's a shot of how it looks today;



I also think the 1920 aerial just above which I'll reproduce here shows the punchbowl green behind the big crossing bunker in the lower right with a big left to right falloff slope within the internals;



Here again is the description of the hole from the fall of 1914, prior to Ross's arrival;



Here's Ross's drawing, where he calls for the creation of a front right to back left double punchbowl green, which is almost the direct opposite green orientation than we see in the photo from George Thomas's book;



as well as his detailed instructions;




Phil Young...what do we know about TIllinghast and Seaview??

We know from his writings that this is one of the greens/holes he definitely didn't like.

[Mike_Cirba]

All,

Thanks to the incredible program that Matt Davenport introduced us to called HistoricAerials.com, I've been able to determine that the original Hugh Wilson 5th green pictured above in the George Thomas book was actually about 15 yards left of today's green.   The original existed in the early 30s, but by 1957 a new green was built and only remnants of the original remained.

[Kyle Harris]

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh sure, Kyle...take pictures on a sunny day to show mine up! 

Very cool...thanks!

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike
Nice collation of images on your thread. I have a question - why do you think Ross was brought in so soon after Wilson had designed the course and it opened for play? It would seem from the Ross hole plan of #1 that there was a good deal of modification to the bunkering and the green complexes. Was Wilson's layout unbunkered? And if so, why did he not bunker it do you think?
cheers Neil

Mike,

This is an incredible thread that you put a lot of time into and we should all thank you for that. THANKS!

Now from this vantage point, having finished the work, how would you answer the question that Neil asked at the beginning?

I think that what Geist had under his guns was a dream team. Wealthy men often think that success is predicated on surrounding themselves with the best men at each post. Conellan was advertised as being the best greenkeeper in the country at this time, and Reid, while he may not have been the best professional at the time, may have been the best that was available for hire. But as often as not, dream teams never really gell, and this one seems to have disolved fairly quickly, from too many strong personalities all bringing different values and expectations to one project, with an owner who probably doesn't even know what he wants. That's my theory. But just a theory

In either case, this turned out to be one heck of a golf course, and still is.

[TEPaul]

"But as often as not, dream teams never really gell, and this one seems to have disolved fairly quickly, from too many strong personalities all bringing different values and expectations to one project, with an owner who probably doesn't even know what he wants. That's my theory. But just a theory."


Bradley:

I think you make a very important point there. However, I have a sort of different slant on it, particularly around 1913 when this course began.

We talk about something like a dream team at Seaview. I very much doubt Geist or anyone involved in it in the beginning even remotely viewed it as that. I think the project just began in a pretty scattered and very much uncohesive way and just sort of evolved from there.

Geist was a good friend of Wilson's and he may've just asked him to layout something for him with the Bay course. But reading the brief mentions about it by Wilson (to Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture) it seems like Geist just decided to allocate some land there for golf, even pumping fill out of the bay perhaps on his own initiative. Wilson mentions this was done by locals and the fill was deposited in a pretty bad and unsuccessful way (prompting Wilson to prevail on the US Government to recommend someone for fill management). In other words, it sure doesn't sound to me like Wilson called for holes in that area that was essentially bay fill, and if he did it sure sounds from his own words that he didn't know what he or whoever did it even remotely knew what they were doing.

We also know that Wilson apparently brought Harry Colt with him down to Seaview early on (probably around May 1913) as he had him to Merion at the same time and obviously his friend and clubmate at Pine Valley, George Crump, nabbed Colt at the same time to spend a week at Pine Valley.

There may also be an interesting aspect to the Bay course at Seaview----ie was it the first golf course in the world that tried to use riparian material (in this case bay fill) in an attempt to create terra firma or agronomic nutritional material for golf holes? If so this could get into a whole new subject---eg the apparently belief back then that riparian material including "muck" was good or even necessary to use to grow grass?

As we know from other courses, including Pine Valley, this idea and attempt would lead to a number of pretty severe and time consuming mistakes agronomically.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

Thanks very much for the kind words...I'm heartened that you've been enjoying this thread.

By way of response, let's first address Wilfred Reid's prominence at the time he was brought over here by Mr. Geist.

Bernard Darwin, in an absolutely incredible letter written to Golf Illustrated during the beginnings of World War I, had this to say about Reid;

I see that you are taking two very good
professional players from us Wilfred Reid
who goes to the Seaview Golf Club, Atlantic
City and Willie Hunter to a St. Louis Club.
Reid you have already seen at the memorable
championship at the Country Club in
1913. He is certainly one of the soundest
and best of our players in the class that
ranks below the very highest and he would
have done even better things than he has
done but for a certain lack of inches. He
has played many times for England in the
Professional International Match and holds
the unique record of never having been
beaten in it. Hunter who is somewhat older
than Reid having been born in 1878 as
compared with 1884 is likewise an international
player having represented Scotland
in four matches. At Sudbrook Park, Richmond,
where he has been the professional
for twelve years, he has played some wonderful
rounds and his game is essentially a
graceful and accomplished one. Both of
them will, I feel sure, be very popular in
their new homes.

The entire article, with a great picture of Reid and some others like Ben Sayers, can be found at the following link;

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1915/gi6m.pdf

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike
Nice collation of images on your thread. I have a question - why do you think Ross was brought in so soon after Wilson had designed the course and it opened for play? It would seem from the Ross hole plan of #1 that there was a good deal of modification to the bunkering and the green complexes. Was Wilson's layout unbunkered? And if so, why did he not bunker it do you think?
cheers Neil

Mike,

This is an incredible thread that you put a lot of time into and we should all thank you for that. THANKS!

Now from this vantage point, having finished the work, how would you answer the question that Neil asked at the beginning?

I think that what Geist had under his guns was a dream team. Wealthy men often think that success is predicated on surrounding themselves with the best men at each post. Conellan was advertised as being the best greenkeeper in the country at this time, and Reid, while he may not have been the best professional at the time, may have been the best that was available for hire. But as often as not, dream teams never really gell, and this one seems to have disolved fairly quickly, from too many strong personalities all bringing different values and expectations to one project, with an owner who probably doesn't even know what he wants. That's my theory. But just a theory

In either case, this turned out to be one heck of a golf course, and still is.

Bradley,

To answer your question, I do think that Geist had grand ambitions for SeaView as he not only spent $325,000 on it by the time it opened, but continually tried to publicize it and bring the best players in the country there to promote it.

However, it wasn't originally meant to be a daunting championship challenge as this 10/1914 article points out.



We also know that actual construction work on the golf course began around May/June 1913, so Hugh Wilson likely laid out the course in the spring of 1913 or even as far back as winter 1912/13, so it was over two years time between Wilson originally designing the course and Geist bringing Ross in to add additional traps to "stiffen it", in the words of Tillinghast.

We also know from the hole descriptions in this article that today's course is consistent in routing and basic strategies to what was on the ground in 1914, and we also know that the predominant hazards and pits already existed by the tiime Ross made his recommendations.

However, we also know that there was a predominant thinking from Wilson, Tillinghast, and others in their writings of the time that it was adviseable and ideal to refine a course over time...to actually watch play over a period and then determine where to best locate artificial hazards and such, and I'd suggest that like many of the courses being built at that time around Philadelphia, such as Merion and Pine Valley, Seaview was also meant to be a work in progress.

I think if one puts themselves in the position of an "amateur architect" like Hugh Wilson, trying to keep a business running with his brother while suddenly being in intense demand by the creme de la creme of High Society to build or advise or help them with golf courses after the opening of Merion in September 1912, it isn't too difficult to see the strain that would lead to Wilson backing off the Seaview project after two years.

We already know that he basically worked on the Merion East course from at least January 1911 through it's opening September 1912.   He may have been more involved prior or even gone abroad to study courses prior to January 1911, but let's assume for discussion purposes that January 1911 is the start.

It is now September 1912 and Wilson, likely relieved to have reached an opening date and probably figuring that his work was done is suddenly confronted with the fact that he is now Philadelphia's C.B. Macdonald of sorts....he is now seen locally as the man who knows what there is to know about building a championship golf course based on the strategic principles embodied in the great holes and great courses overseas that he has made study of.

I'll continue momentarily....

[Mike_Cirba]

Having now spent the better part of two years designing and building what was intended and anticipated to be Philadelphia's first post-guttie "Championship Course" with Merion East, Hugh Wilson probably never intended to do anything further but go back to playing golf at his club and attending to his business and expanding family.

By September 1912, his daughter Louise would have been approaching her 6th birthday, and his daughter Nancy would have just been turning 2.

Once Merion East opened, so did the floodgates.   Within a few short months, popularity of golf at the club exploded and the club had to restrict memberships to combat the huge demand for play.   Hugh Wilson was called back into service by club officials to build them another course, which was ready to be seeded by Fall 1913.

Merion Cricket Club minutes from the fall of 1913 reportedly had the following entry;

"With the opening of the then new East Course in September of 1912, the number of players at Merion increased so largely as to make the facilities afforded - which it was expected would be sufficient for all time to come - so insufficient for the enjoyment and pleasure of the members that complaints were made with such seriousness as to require attention from your Board..."

"Merion now becomes the only golf club in America to possess two full eighteen-hole championship courses...When it (the West Course) is opened in the spring with the bus facilities that will connect it up to the East Course, it is fully expected that the golf members of Merion will have all the facilities that they could possibly desire...Our position in golf in this country will be second to none and unique in golf history, enabling us to hold tournaments, national, state or city upon our course without interference with the game of our own members."

The Merion West course opened May 1914.

Also please note that this timing was concurrent with Clarence Geist asking him to design and build Seaview.

We also know from the Piper/Oakley letters that Seaview was hardly a "paper job" and that Wilson was involved in helping to solve unique and probably frustrating, time-consuming construction problems.

Those challenges are clearly alluded to in the following 1914 article.   What's more, and probably to the chagrin of Hugh Wilson at that time, a SECOND COURSE is already in Geist's plans!


 

to be continued...

[Mike_Cirba]

The Seaview course was also originally supposed to open in early 1914.   In fact, in December 1913 Tillinghast reported;

"The new Sea View course,at Absecon is coming on beautifully. The fall  seeding has been blessed with fortunate weather condition and greens and fairways already are beautifully green. Here is another course that I must inspect carefully before attempting a critical review (like he did with Merion East in early 1913, comments mine)."

Mr. Clarence H. Geist, the president, announces plans for a palatial club house, a feature which golfers at the Atlantic City shore will appreciate."

However, exactly one year later, and likely delayed due to the problems of dealing with using fill from the bay, Tilinghast again reported;

"The new course at Sea View Club is coming along beautifully and Mr. C.H. Geist announces that there will be a formal opening sometime soon after the holidays and without doubt the occasion will be a memorable one."

"Mr. Geist was seriously indisposed for nearly five weeks but as soon as his physician permitted him to leave the house he went immediately to the club and began preparations for this opening."

A month later, Tillinghast reported;

"Mr. Clarence H. Geist, president of the Seaview Golf Club, at Absecon,N. J., likes to do things on a generous scale. He announces a winter tournament for the opening of the new course, and the trophy which the president offers for the first flight is an unusually fine one. The tournament, a strictly invitation event, is scheduled to begin on Monday, January 11, and it continues through four days. But on the preceding Saturday, January 9, the course really will be formally opened by the playing of a four-ball match over thirty-six holes."

The course had a "soft opening" in summer/fall of 1914 to members, but due to construction issues and then Geist's illness, the course didn't have their Grand Opening until the January 1915 tournament.

We also now know for certain that Hugh Wilson had other things going on by 1913/14.   Specifically, he had been asked by Ellis Gimbel to work on revamping Philmont with greens chairman Henry Strouse.   He was on a committee appointed by Robert Lesley, Ellis Gimbel, and Clarence Geist (and two others) to locate appropriate sites for Philadelphia's first and long anticipated public course.  He was also working with Ab Smith and J.Franklin Meehan on the new 18 hole course for North Hills.   

But, we've recently also had confirmation that Hugh Wilson and his friends had not only located the site for the Cobb's Creek course, but had already designed it in 1914, prior to the approval by the city!

This January 1915 article already describes the course that had already been designed.



This was confirmed in another January 1915 article which states;

"Robert W. Lesley, president, stated on behalf of the Committee on the Park Golf Course, that he had seen plans for an eighteen hole public golf course prepared as the result of many consultations with himself and other golf experts laid out at the northwestern end of Cobb's Creek Park..."

"He added further that he is assured that work on the preparation of the course will be begun as soon as the weather permits in the spring.   The new links will be of championship length and character and will give Philadelphia a public course second to none in the United States."

to be continued...

[Mike_Cirba]

This 1913 photo shows Hugh Wilson and others looking at some sites for a public course in Philadelphia.

Interestingly, two of the men in the photo (Geist and Gimbel) would use Hugh Wilson for their courses, as well.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

To add to your timeline here, I have found (I'm sure you have already have seen this Mike) from May 1915 this quote from "Hazard" in The American Golfer:

"Seaview has called in Donald Ross to build traps, and his ideas, together with those of Wilfred Ried, should stiffen the Absecon course considerably."

Note, they are not changing the route or the greens, but just adding traps. And still I wonder how much time or patience Ross had for this arrangement?

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

I'm getting there...please bear with my LOOONNNG winded answer. 



By December of 1914, Hugh Wilson had become something of an unlikely full-time architect and "turfologist".   

He had just designed, built, and opened two courses at Merion.

He had designed, built, and opened the course at SeaView and now Geist was planning a second.

He had just found a site for the new public course at Cobbs Creek and had designed it with help from the committee he was part of, and work on building that was just ready to begin in the spring.

He was already working for Ellis Gimbel at Philmont and J. Franklin Meehan at North Hills...

Remember also that Seaview was several hours from Wilson's home by rail and he had just spend probably 18 months working for Geist there.

He was still chairman of the Green Committee at Merion...

So, in December 1914, Wilson resigned;




In the meantime, the rest of the world stands at the brink of World War I with Britain having declared war on Germany in August. 

to be continued...

[Mike_Cirba]

Despite Wilson's time commitment, in January 1915 Robert Lesley, Clarence Geist, Ellis Gimbel and two others appoint Wilson to a committee charged with building the public course at Cobb's Creek.   

We learn in later articles that Wilson personally spends six months on this effort and Ab Smith spend all his Sunday's for several months over seeing the work.

We also know that there was no falliing out between Hugh Wilson and Clarence Geist which some might speculate could be the cause of turning to Ross.   In fact, in the very month that Ross is brought on board, three historically interrelated events take place and are reported in "American Golfer" in May 1915.

"Work has started on the new public
course by Cobb's Creek, and another
course will be constructed at Torresdale."

"Seaview has called in Donald Ross
to build traps, and his ideas, together
with those of Wilfrid Reid, should
stiffen the Absecon course considerably."

"National champion Francis Ouimet,
spent several days in Philadelphia
last m o n t h . He played at Whitemarsh
first but he failed to break 80.
However this performance must not
be taken seriously for the ability of
his fellows was very mediocre and
the day could be regarded only as a
skylark. However, on the next day
he played at Seaview, where his
play was more nearly like that
which is expected of a national
champion.  There he scored a 73,
partnered in a four-ball match by
Mr. Hugh I. Wilson and opposed by Mr. C. H. Geist
and Wilfrid Reid, the recently arrived pro.,
formerly of Banstead, England.


I hope this series helps to answer a lot of your questions, as well as those of Neil Crafter's.   

[Mike_Cirba]

In answer to a question that wasn't directly asked, I would speculate that the reason very little of the work Donald Ross recommended was ever done, and the reason the planned second course wasn't built until the late 1920s (and then only 9 holes) was due to three factors;

1) The amount of monies Geist spent to get the course and palatial clubhouse up and running by early 1915.

2) The outbreak of World War I.

3) The fact that building holes out of reclaimed marshland proved to be a more difficult and costly operation than he probably originally anticipated.   Other reports of the second course suggested it would be along the wetlands/bay, much like the first.    When the course was finally built by Flynn in the later 20s, it was carved out of heavy woods behind the clubhouse.

[Joe Bausch]

Stay tuned for some decent photos of some of the holes not part of Kyle's presentation of this neat little Hugh Wilson design.  ...

Ok, here are some others on a pretty nice sunny day last Friday.  Some snow was still present on the course in a handful of places.  We finished nearly in the dark so no photos of the 17th and just one of the 18th to just show the nice hotel at dusk.

The par 3 7th:



The approach shot on the short par 4 8th:



There are cross bunkers to be navigated on the short par 5 9th:



From short of the 9th green:



View from the bend at the short dogleg left 10th:



And a view from over the green:



A 230 yard par 3 awaits at the 11th:



And a view from over the green:



I wish I we had better lighting for the photos on the dogleg right par 4 12th, as I loved this small diagonally mounted green, but large evergreens right of the green makes it hard to view.  Here from about 125 yards out:



This from over the green:



Another neat green and surrounds is on the par 4 13th, this view from the fairway:



From just over the back right of the green, showing the two-tiered nature:



View from the tee on the par 4 14th, a gentle bender to the right:



The view from 100 yards out:



The 200 yard par 3 15th:



From left of the propped up green:



View from the tee on the dogleg right par 4 16th:



Bunkering and mounding right of the FW:



From the back of the 16th green, which this pic doesn't do the contouring justice:



Too dark really for pics of the short par 3 17th, or the par 5 18th, but this view from a mound left of the 18th green shows the hotel and clubhouse at dusk:

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

Oh yea, the War.

Isn't it annoying how much a war can mess up a nice tidy timeline? 

[Joe Bausch]

If you wish to view all 137 photos (instead of the handful I posted above) I took of the Bay course at Seaview from a last Friday afternoon tour with Kyle Harris, go here:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Seaview_Bay/index.html

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