[BCrosby]

In 1903 the Oxford Cambridge Golfing Society fielded a team that played a series of five matches with prominent US clubs.

The captain of the O-C team was John L. Low. It's youngest member was Charles Alison, the only O-C member to win all of his matches.

At their match at Garden City -

- John Low beat Water Travis
- Charles Alison beat a guy named C.B. MacDonald

At their match at Baltusrol -

- John Low beat Max Behr in 19 holes. Behr was then an undergrad at Yale.

I note the above for two reasons. First, because I think it's pretty cool. Second, the above suggests that as of 1903 the world of golf and golf design was very small and very tight. They all knew each other. They talked.

Which suggests, further, that arguments along the lines of "In the US circa 1910 no one would have known what a Redan hole was unless explained to them by CBM" are largely hogwash.

Bob
 

[TEPaul]

"Which suggests, further, that arguments along the lines of "In the US circa 1910 no one would have known what a Redan hole was unless explained to them by CBM" are largely hogwash."


Bob:

Who suggested such a thing? Was it someone or a group of people on this website or people elsewhere? Whoever they are they certainly don't know very much about the lives and times of some of those Americans that've been mentioned. The fact is various regions of this country, particularly Philadelphia and certainly including New York and Boston had a good many people who had money who constantly traveled abroad and were effected by more than a little of what might be termed "Anglophilia".

[Bob_Huntley]

"Which suggests, further, that arguments along the lines of "In the US circa 1910 no one would have known what a Redan hole was unless explained to them by CBM" are largely hogwash."


Bob:

Who suggested such a thing? Was it someone or a group of people on this website or people elsewhere? Whoever they are they certainly don't know very much about the lives and times of some of those Americans that've been mentioned. The fact is various regions of this country, particularly Philadelphia and certainly including New York and Boston had a good many people who had money who constantly traveled abroad and were effected by more than a little of what might be termed "Anglophilia".

Tom,

In my lifetime I have met many an Anglophile and enjoyed their company. They adopted the English lifestyle by wearing Huntsman jackets, Lobb shoes, Turnbull and Asser shirts, they even drank their gin and tonic without ice but I never, ever, heard of an American stooping to drink warm beer. 


Bob

[J_ Crisham]

"Which suggests, further, that arguments along the lines of "In the US circa 1910 no one would have known what a Redan hole was unless explained to them by CBM" are largely hogwash."


Bob:

Who suggested such a thing? Was it someone or a group of people on this website or people elsewhere? Whoever they are they certainly don't know very much about the lives and times of some of those Americans that've been mentioned. The fact is various regions of this country, particularly Philadelphia and certainly including New York and Boston had a good many people who had money who constantly traveled abroad and were effected by more than a little of what might be termed "Anglophilia".

Tom,

In my lifetime I have met many an Anglophile and enjoyed their company. They adopted the English lifestyle by wearing Huntsman jackets, Lobb shoes, Turnbull and Asser shirts, they even drank their gin and tonic without ice but I never, ever, heard of an American stooping to drink warm beer. 


Bob

Bob,  My assumption is that you have never been to a Cubs Game. Warm beer , cold beer , it really doesn't matter in the end!

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
In my lifetime I have met many an Anglophile and enjoyed their company. They adopted the English lifestyle by wearing Huntsman jackets, Lobb shoes, Turnbull and Asser shirts, they even drank their gin and tonic without ice but I never, ever, heard of an American stooping to drink warm beer. 
Bob"


Bob:

That particular example is a good and interesting point. On reflection of my life it is pretty staggering just how many Americans I've been surrounded by over the years who couldn't be described any other way than complete Anglophiles! Even their accents weren't exactly American. 

They were all pretty much willing to embrace anything and everything that smacked of England and the English but one glaring exception was certainly drinks of any kind that were WARM!

The fact is almost all Americans like most things they eat and drink to be either very hot or very cold and as a nation we have always snickered at the miniscule size of refigerators and such (we called them Ice-boxes) not just in England but in most of the rest of the world and the thing that always got us tittering were those ridiculous little ice containers in bars and such in England that we felt were not much bigger than some of the mugs we use over here.

If I took more than one ice-cube out of those ridiculous little things in England it frankly made me feel like I was exhibiting the maximum amount of what might have been called "Ugly-Americanitis."

WARM BEER!??

Jeeesus Robert, England and its artistorcracy may define the last word in style and sophistication but you blokes sure missed the boat on that one. ICE COLD BEER and cocktails, that is the only way to live properly, My Good Man!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Nice thread.

Bob do you have complete list of players on the Oxford & Cambridge side?  On here we normally think about the traffic of visitors who came from the west it would be interesting to see who went from here.

[TEPaul]

"They adopted the English lifestyle by wearing Huntsman jackets, Lobb shoes, Turnbull and Asser shirts,"


Hold on Robert, I don't want to shock this website with some of the more outrageous aspects of true Anglophilia of the highest order, but in some circles even though Lobb was the go to place for loafers and such a real sophisticated Anglophe wouldn't think of such a thing for REAL shoes. For that we went to see Mr Cleaverly just off Saville Row.

We were taken down into a remarkably cobwebby cellar chock-full of hundreds if not thousands of wooden lasts and sat on a stool where Mr Cleaverly would proceed to rub our feet and sketch the outline of them, make various notes and then I suppose eventually produce a wooden last somehow.

My first time there I asked Mr Cleaverly if he would make me a nice pair of loafers (non-tie slipons) and his eyebrows shot up and he proclaimed: "Young man if you want something like that go over to Lobb and buy a ready made pair, wear them a few times and then throw them away because they will stretch out of shape and be useless for proper walking!"

Not to mention that in that cobwebby cellar was one other man sitting on a stool who couldn't have been nicer. He got up from his stool and introduced himself---he was Angier Biddle Duke who at that time was apparently the American Ambassador to England.

Actually I'm not sure that was Angier Biddle Duke at that particular time but it was someone just like him who was the American Ambassador to England. Did we have an American Ambassador to England by the name of (something) Bruce?

[BCrosby]

Bob -

Far be it from me to disagree, but don't you think Peel's shoes would be a better fit while having your room temperature drink?

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Bob -
Far be it from me to disagree, but don't you think Peel's shoes would be a better fit while having your room temperature drink?"


Aaah, PIFFLE. Peel (or was it Peal? ) was just fine but definitely for the second stringers compared to Lobb and certainly to Mr Cleaverly. Peel even distributed their ready made shoes through Brooks Brothers and I doubt that would fly with a real English aristocrat or a truly accomplished American Anglophile!   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

I was just reading an article in the Time dated the 22nd July 1903 an hour ago and just seen your post so I attach apart of that article for your info.

Melvyn

[BCrosby]

Thanks Melvyn. I was just going to post the list.

The reference to A.C.M. Croome is interesting. His role in the world of golf at the time is under-appreciated. He was a respected commentator in Britain before and during the Golden Age. He was at one time a design partner of Fowler, Simpson and Abercromby. My sense is that he and Simpson were good friends, but I would love to know more about both men. And Abercromby as well, who is a bit of a mystery.

Per Bob Huntley, may we assume that the O-C team took their scotch with soda, no ice?

Bob

P.S. TEP - I am embarrassed to admit that I once trod your floors whilst wearing shoes from Peel's. I now know better and will not do so again.

P.S.S - Melvyn - Does the end of the article you posted go on to say that the O-C team played additional matches in western Canada?

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob -

I've always assumed that CBM should be described as the earliest and best "promoter" in America of the great and abiding principles of golf course architecture - and have never understood why he needed to be credited with more than that.

I've recently started imagining "The Group of 400" when I think about the early days of American golf,  and it's a way to describe the very small circle of players, club-members, committee-members, architects, and writers who all seemed to know eachother and do business with eachother.

But still, it really is a cool surprise to discover that it was as early as 1903 that the friendships and exchanges started forming and happening, and that even that early on the people involved were (or would be) such heavyweights.

Low over Behr in 19 holes. Good stuff.

Peter 

[BCrosby]

Peter -

Your notion of the Group of 400 is a good one, though Group of 200 might be closer to the actual mark. Everyone knew everyone involved in the game in any serious way. It was a very, very small world.

Perhaps I'm too bookish, but more interesting than the O-C matches was the fact that in the same year John Low published his book "Concerning Golf". It was a landmark book. No one before or since has expressed so clearly and forcefully the basic principles of strategic golf design.

It is not a wild leap of faith the think that, perhaps, Low talked about those ideas with some of his chilled-beverage drinking American friends in their thick soled Johnson & Murphy shoes.

Bob

[Mike_Cirba]

I note the above for two reasons. First, because I think it's pretty cool. Second, the above suggests that as of 1903 the world of golf and golf design was very small and very tight. They all knew each other. They talked.

Which suggests, further, that arguments along the lines of "In the US circa 1910 no one would have known what a Redan hole was unless explained to them by CBM" are largely hogwash.

Bob,

Hallefrickenlullah!   

[BCrosby]

Mike -

It's not just that they all knew each other well; it's not just that they talked and corresponded; it's not just that they visited with each other frequently both in the US and the UK; it is also and mostly that they wrote books and articles, many of them fully illustrated, which gave a pretty comprehensive idea of what was considered at the time to be the best holes in the world. It was a topic on everyone's mind, it had been for a while and people had spent a lot of time thinking about the issue.

By 1910 all that was old hat.

Bob

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Bob,

Completely agreed.

It wasn't that all US knowledge of golf and golf holes existed in CB Macdonald.  Many, many, many of the prominent men at that time who were into golf had travelled overseas and played the great courses.

It's simply that Macdonald was the one who had the brainstorm, the drive, the money, and the chutzpah to try and create a singular great golf course modelled on 18 of the best of them....the "ideal golf course".

I can't believe how that simple fact continues to elude so many, and how in many ways this site has propagated that myth.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

It may be of interest to note that CBM was in contact with Old Tom certainly in the 1890’s as he (OTM) was asked to recommend names for vacancies in America. I believe among some of those that left for the US was the Foulis brothers due to direct contact between CBM & OTM. This was some 10 years before the dates you are discussing. So certainly there was correspondence between Scotland and the USA, via a very well respected, experienced senior professional of the day. Also many famous holes would have been know by most golfers who had played or worked in Scotland by that early date (1890’s).

This should not be surprising as CBM had a locker in Old Tom’s shop.

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

"P.S. TEP - I am embarrassed to admit that I once trod your floors whilst wearing shoes from Peel's. I now know better and will not do so again."

Bob:

Please do so again. My floors are honored to be trod on by your Peels and I'm honored too. That other stuff I spoke about above was long ago when I was unfrugal. Now I'm a real "Discount Guy" and my floors don't usually see good stuff like Peels anymore. I still have Mr Cleaverly's shoes and to tell you the truth I never really wore them figuring they were too good for me. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thanks Melvyn and Bob.

Another name from the list was Norman Hunter who was a Blue for Cambridge 1898, 1900 and 1901.  A prominent member of Sunningdale their history reports that on the tour he went round Chicago in 71, "four strokes better than the course record set 3 years earlier by Harry Vardon in the US Open Championship."

He was Captain of the club in 1914, 15 & 16.

He died in WW1 reported missing in June 1915 and the club appointed him Captain, in absentia, "in the hope that he would be seen again on the Sunningdale Golf links."

[BCrosby]

Tony -

Why do the names H.W. Beveridge and E.F. Ransome sound familiar?

All - A couple more finds:

The O-C team dominated. As far as I can tell they won all but a couple of the matches.

Their first match was at Myopia, the next at Essex. A. Quincy Shaw played for the Myopia team.

The O-C Society then went to Chicago. Both Chandler Egan and his brother Walter played for the Chicago team. The Chicago team lost both matches, one at Glenview, one at Chicago GC.

At Shinnecock the Shinnecock team included CB MacDonald, Walter Travis, Deveraux Emmet and J. W. Baker. The US team lost again.

Remarkable stuff. Some of the the most important US architects (then and later) were rubbing shoulders with Low and Alison. Which no doubt opened the door to other relationships on both sides of the Atlantic.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Bob:

It is interesting to me that the O-C team did not come to Philadelphia at that time, playing only in Boston, Chicago and New York. This pretty much squares with the commentary and feeling around here at that time that there were no good courses in this area and something had to be done about it. This kind of thing must have inspired Tillinghast to start writing about it to do something about it and of course Crump to build a superior course as a basic training ground for Philly's competitive contingent. Not to mention the fact that the Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP) had gotten hammered by New York's Metropolitan Golf Association (MET) in the first few years of the so-called "Intercity Matches" beginning around 1900 that morphed into the Lesley Cup in 1905. GAP continued to get hammered for a few years which somewhat inspired the formation of the Pennsylvania Golf Association in 1909 so we could get W.C. Fownes from Pittsburgh (who would win the US Amateur in 1910) that would represent Pennsylvania in future Lesley Cup for the next century.

It seems pretty surprising that O-C beat up so badly on some of the best players over here in 1903 even though at that time the other side was reputed to have better players. It seems like even if friendly, the competitive fervor over who had the best players was getting pretty heated and debated at that time. Throw in the fact that Walter Travis won the British Amateur the next year, the first American to do so and I guess we can understand better the Kerfuffle that became the Schnectedy Putter issue and actually lasted for a number of years leading finally to some I&B Rules and Regs for the first time.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

I think they did play a Philadelphia club, but I can't find a newspaper account of the match. It was planned and I'm pretty sure it happened. Maybe Joe Bausch can find something in the Phillie papers. It would have been around August of 1903.

I was looking for Hugh Wilson, who would have been the right age.

Many younger US players didn't play in the matches because the Western Am was going on at about the same time in Cleveland.

Bob 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

The Oxford & Cambridge tour of the USA in 1903

The basic results I have found are as follows

Aug. 11th 1903  American Universities at Myopia CC  - victory to O&C  3 – 2
Aug. 12th 1903 Massachusetts State at Essex CC      - victory to O&C 6 – 5
Aug. 18th 1903 at Chicago G C  Foursome                   - victory to O&C 3 -  2
                                                    Team                           - victory to O&C 8 – 3
Aug. 25th 1903 Metropolitan G A - NY - Garden City   
                                                    Foursome                 - victory to O&C  5 - 0
                                                    Singles                     - victory to O&C  7 – 3
Aug. 27th 1903 Southampton                                      - victory to O&C  8 – 3
Sep. 12th 1903 All Philadelphia Team                          - victory to O&C 11 – 0

So you were right they did play Philadelphia on the 12th Sept. 1903, but I have no information on the teams. Hope this will be of assistance.

Melvyn

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

The article just finishes stating that the USGA limited it to 32 players including visitors. Match play 18 holes, final 36 holes. This was from The Times of 22nd July 1903.

Only mention of Canada relates to Lacrosse game not golf.

Melvyn

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob, Melvyn - don't know if this will only confuse matters, but it seems that the Oxford and Cambridge team also played Baltustrol on September 9th, 1903 - against a team from the New Jersey State Golf Association (including Max Behr). So reports the New York Sun on September 10th, 1903 - listing all the participants and the scores. Don't know how to provide a link and the documents don't allow for cuts and pastes, but I thought I'd mention it
Also, the September 8, 1903 edition of the New York Sun reports that the O&C team lost to an "All American Team" from the US Golf Association - with Travis revenging his loss to Low the week before at Garden City
Peter 

Melvyn (and Bob, TE, Tony, Mike, Joe B et al) - no, no mention of Wilson on the New Jersey or USGA teams. But I'm just looking now at the September 12th Washington Times that notes that the Philadelphia team would be playing O&C that day at Huntington Valley. No mention of any of the names of the Philly players.

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