[Adrian_Stiff]

What are the medium and high(ish) annual membership dues in the US?

Obviously here in the UK the same range would be $1,000 - $4,000 per year.

Generally you can play almost any course in the UK for a one off payment, there may just be 5 or 6 where you cant, the similar range would be £30- £250.

By norm a UK membership is based on 20 -35 times its normal green fee.

[Sean_A]

All of the above also applies to clubs in England. 

I know of one 100 year old club in the London suburbs close to meltdown, the Secretary and Catering Manager are gone and they still need to cut costs AND get new members. The writing was on the wall 5 years ago when they dropped their initiation fee. Those few they have attracted in the last few years will be looking elsewhere. Thirty years ago membership was closed and before Drink and Drive became an issue it was the most social place around.

When I left a similar club close to the above one, this past summer, no one called to ask why.  I am 15 years younger than the average member and personally I think they should be asking people like me why I don't want to be in their club.

These clubs are ill suited to survive these times.  The boom times that followed the financial crises of the 1970's created huge numbers of Pay and Play courses, who know have paid back much of their capital costs.  They will be far more flexible in the current market and it's a crazy time to be considering putting down initiation fees. 


Golf will look very different in 10 years time.

Tony

Up here in the hinterlands, I think for many members the £1000 mark for subs will be seen as critical.  I know of several chaps who are hardened golfers which are now questioning their £800-£900 a year subs.  Plus, the older folks who have been long time members and actually play less than previously will be dropping out like flies as I type.  My old club had subs of just under £400 when I joined some 9 years ago.  The fees are now £850 a year and that is the same story everywhere.  Golf dues are climbing far quicker than inflation. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean- You make some good points, mainly summed up by the fact that golf has gotten expensive.

This is kinda how things have changed; A typical member used to play 50 times per year, say 45 times t his home course, twice with Uncle Charlie at Easter when the family went to Bournemouth and 3 times on holiday in Cornwall. Lets say the fees were £400...
Today a typical club member plays much less, the average is around 32 times per year, a good bulk norm  (main 70%)its 30-37 times.... you start dividing £900 by 32 its £28 every time you play your home course, a lot of members are leaving clubs because of simple economics, a lot of clubs accept 2 4 1 schemes, county cards, guest fees, open day competitions at a lot less than £28. You only have to pick up the magazines and there are offers of "Bacon roll, coffee, 18 holes, lunch and a couple of dancing girls £14.99" why be a member?
It simply does not make any real sense, golfers today are much more nomadic and many are part of groups that have away days, golfers today like to play and experience different courses, so a membership to many is the same price but they only play 75% of the volume on there own course. The part membership fee say £400 per year or even less with a smaller green fee is the route forward, that way golfers can belong at the right price.
2 4 1 schemes and county card discounts are the 'end'. We have one golf course near us that is £700+ per year but u can play for £11 on a county card.... and they wonder why they are in trouble!!!!

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

Good points.  I'm going to be paying £2,300 for myself, my wife and three kids (as junior members) to belong to our club.  I might play there 30-35 times a year but my wife (who is a very keen golfer and competent too) maybe only plays 15-20 times.  The lads play less often but their memberships are dirt cheap (£50 + VAT) to encourage juniors into the club.

We gave serious thought to dropping our memberships or just Lorna's in favour of a much cheaper membership elsewhere (we could have joined Goswick for a combined fee under £700) but have stuck with where we are.  Why?  Because we both play golf to compete.  I want to play regular medals and maintain a handicap and that's part of what a club offers.  There's also the fact that a good club offers a feeling of belonging which paying green fees can never replicate.  I understand, though, that for most golfers these considerations are far less important.

One thing is for sure.  I simply couldn't contemplate the sorts of money many US golfers seem to have to contemplate to belong to a club.

[Sean_A]

Sean- You make some good points, mainly summed up by the fact that golf has gotten expensive.

This is kinda how things have changed; A typical member used to play 50 times per year, say 45 times t his home course, twice with Uncle Charlie at Easter when the family went to Bournemouth and 3 times on holiday in Cornwall. Lets say the fees were £400...
Today a typical club member plays much less, the average is around 32 times per year, a good bulk norm  (main 70%)its 30-37 times.... you start dividing £900 by 32 its £28 every time you play your home course, a lot of members are leaving clubs because of simple economics, a lot of clubs accept 2 4 1 schemes, county cards, guest fees, open day competitions at a lot less than £28. You only have to pick up the magazines and there are offers of "Bacon roll, coffee, 18 holes, lunch and a couple of dancing girls £14.99" why be a member?
It simply does not make any real sense, golfers today are much more nomadic and many are part of groups that have away days, golfers today like to play and experience different courses, so a membership to many is the same price but they only play 75% of the volume on there own course. The part membership fee say £400 per year or even less with a smaller green fee is the route forward, that way golfers can belong at the right price.
2 4 1 schemes and county card discounts are the 'end'. We have one golf course near us that is £700+ per year but u can play for £11 on a county card.... and they wonder why they are in trouble!!!!

Adrian

I know exactly what you mean.  I have settled on a few country memberships knowing full well that likely half my golf will be played as a nomad.

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

To me what this amounts to, is the death of Club Culture. 

The reasons why I left the club is best illustrated on the first tee on a Saturday AM between 8 and 9.15, being ‘unofficially’ roped off by a senior group of players when the official policy was play in order of queuing. The strength of a club is in its membership but when the core group shrinks and becomes inward looking, why would anyone want to join?

The irony is my best friend there, who lives next to the course, is now invited as a singleton to join them. He has been a member for 4 years and has won one of the big club competitions. He is given strict instructions as to who he plays with and he dare not miss a Saturday for fear someone else will be ‘given’ his place.  Atrophy from within.


Does anyone know what your legal standing as a Member in the UK is?   I can see more than a few clubs going bankrupt, as a Member would I have any liability for the clubs debts?   It’s a question I’ve never even thought to ask until now.

[Mark Pearce]

To me what this amounts to, is the death of Club Culture. 

The reasons why I left the club is best illustrated on the first tee on a Saturday AM between 8 and 9.15, being ‘unofficially’ roped off by a senior group of players when the official policy was play in order of queuing. The strength of a club is in its membership but when the core group shrinks and becomes inward looking, why would anyone want to join?

The irony is my best friend there, who lives next to the course, is now invited as a singleton to join them. He has been a member for 4 years and has won one of the big club competitions. He is given strict instructions as to who he plays with and he dare not miss a Saturday for fear someone else will be ‘given’ his place.  Atrophy from within.


Does anyone know what your legal standing as a Member in the UK is?   I can see more than a few clubs going bankrupt, as a Member would I have any liability for the clubs debts?   It’s a question I’ve never even thought to ask until now.

Tony,

One of the reasons that we've stuck with our club is that they are addressing these issues.  Big efforts are being made to encourage new and less frequently seen members to play and feel welcome.  A club with a handful of junior members has become one with 60 in just 24 months and juniors with CONGU handicaps are positively encouraged to participate in adult competitions (I was virtually told that I should make sure Cameron was competing in adult comps). 

The next captain is 15 years younger than any of the last 20 and we have three times as many adult members under the age of 35 as five years ago.  The seperate ladies club are now allowed to use the main bar (unthinkable ten years ago) and this year share the same club diary (doesn't sound much but it's surprisingly significant). 

Clubs which are atrophying can be turned round but it takes a few senior members to grasp the nettle and live with some controversy.  We are fortunate in having a chairman and a couple of others who have been powerful enough to force through some unpopular changes with the very vocal elderly membership to make our club the sort of place that the kids want to go and play and where I feel comfortable taking friends.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - I totally agree with your reasons and the 'belonging' is a big factor. Consider this though, you can be a member of our golf course for £800 per year and play whenever and as much as you like, you can be a Gold member for £588, it has restrictive times, but you can play before 10 am midweek, after 3.30 any day, the winter period nov 1st- mar 31st plus all weekend competitions (3 or 4 per month) are included. You could also be a Silver member at £348 per year (£29 $44 per month) and pay £10 $15 per round or even a Bronze member at £100 per year and then pay £20..... you can still play competitions and you are a member, the range balls are free and so is the par 3 course.

Is this the way forward?
We have 1400 members although only 100 are the £800 cat.
The course has be open 6 years and we have lost 2200 members  (the £100 ones)
Some of the £100 ones only ever play once, they liked the idea of being a member but just never played enough

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

I think that it will be a good thing for golf to see clubs offering a variety of options like you describe.  Different clubs will have different solutions, none "right" or "wrong" but rather aimed at different categories of golfer.  My club is probably the premier club in its locality and, after a recent dip in membership we are approaching a full membership, so I suspect we'll stay pretty traditional in the way we structure membership.  I can see other local clubs looking at alternatives in the way you describe, though and I think that has to be a good thing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tony

When queuing breaks down at an English club that's not the death of club culture but rather the death of English culture!

Mark

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark that sounds great.  Any club that can tie families in can surely look forward with confidence.  I’ve read that the average age of a golf club member in the UK is over 55, and I’d bet the older the club the older the average age.  I can’t recall a single article in the golf press about how clubs can reinvent themselves to secure their future.  I just believe that most clubs have no idea what’s really happening and the private clubs that want to survive will have to follow your lead.


Interesting how I’ve personally opted for a future that involves a little from each option above.

My new base course is owned by a family who allow pay and play or join the Club for £250 a year (and play comps for your handicap) and half price green fees when you play.  The club has attracted lots of families and they give juniors free lessons from 10-12 on a Saturday morning and you will see 30 kids there as you come down the 18th even in the depth of Winter. Although none of my family plays, I feel at home because the overall vibe is friendly and welcoming.   Facilities are basic and the course is either quirky or crappy depending on your POV.  Four of five par 3’s, all playing as drop shot’s anyone?

I’ve got my name down for country membership at two courses that would be recognised by all on here and will happily travel to play other courses. Even when they come in I will be paying out the same overall as before, and I’m much happier about it.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony

When queuing breaks down at an English club that's not the death of club culture but rather the death of English culture!

Mark

Touché Mark.  I left because they wouldn't let me join the queue. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Wayne - Sounds very Euro to me

I wonder if the guys that do rating can chime in here...   How many times to you visit a club as a rater to find it pretty much wide open?  I really doubt an hour or two of tee times a day will negatively affect much member play.  Especially if those times are non-prime time.  And don't interfere with my post-work loop

Dan

The interesting vibe I am picking up from some on this board is not the potential inconvenience of unaccompanied visitors or the fact that many clubs don't really need visitor cash(though I have to believe it is very clubs which wouldn't be happy to have an extra revenue stream), but the idea that members have plonked down a pile of cash to play so it isn't fair if somebody can walk in a few times a year and play without a member, or even presumably with a member, at least at certain times.  Though I don't agree with this sentiment I understand it. 

Ciao

Sean,
It's not even that  - it's something more basic.
Let me use a metaphor.  I went to Catholic school as a kid.  Every Wednesday afternoon, we could leave a couple of hours early and the public school kids came into the school for their religion classes.  I still remember the feeling when you came in Thursday morning only to find the stuff in your desk all rearranged.

As a much more mature adult (Not!), I think it's the similar sort of thing. 

I can tell you that Tuesday mornings after a Monday outing are not exactly great conditions.  Divots and ballmarks abound, there's too much trash, and you can see cart tire tracks where they shouldn't be.

Unfortunately, it's not just the outings.  I once played behind a foursome of gents visiting from a local club that was undergoing renovations.  The rounds were comp'd (which I thought was the right thing to do).  But, boy - you'd think that these bozos had never attended to a golf course.  They only raked bunkers when it was convenient and took their carts right to the edge of the greens.

Now - if we could get visitors to play in about 4 hours, replace divots, repair ballmarks, and smooth bunkers...  Bliss!  More money, we get to share the course, and everybody's happy.

--------------------------
Adrian,
The club fee mostly depends on where the club is located.  Here in metro-Philly, rates probably can get up to $6000 per year for a family membership.  Most are probably less than that, but most all add on dining minimums, cart fees, tournament fees, locker fees, range fees, not to mention tips.  It's an expensive vice! 

[Bruce Katona]

Great discussion gents......from a business POV, I really can appreciate the UK club model, but I'm not so sure we can make that model work here currently.

I've seen two really good deals come across my desk in the last 30 days (no I can't tell as I've signed non-disclosure agreements)....solid clubs that can be acquired very inexpensively, so the writing is on the wall.

Having worked through this before in the golf business, the Golf Maint. budget will take a haircut to reduce costs, but the best place to save money is in the clubhouse.....the Restaurant is just a loser at a private club.  Why do you think private clubs offer out ther CH to outside events - to offset the operating expense to try to get that portion of the business to break even.

Close the restaurant, keep the grill and locker rooms open to cut down on operating overhead.....much more cost efficient than slashing the maitennce budget or hiking dues to cover the lost revenue due to declining membership.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

For those interested in an in depth synopsis of various  economic issues facing golf,click on the Special Section "Golf and the Economy" in Met Golfer:

www.mgagolf.org

See the links for John Paul Newport's recent WSJ articles on "Country Clubs Fight an Exodus"  and  "Playing Through Hard Times" among many others.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Great discussion gents......from a business POV, I really can appreciate the UK club model, but I'm not so sure we can make that model work here currently.

I've seen two really good deals come across my desk in the last 30 days (no I can't tell as I've signed non-disclosure agreements)....solid clubs that can be acquired very inexpensively, so the writing is on the wall.

Having worked through this before in the golf business, the Golf Maint. budget will take a haircut to reduce costs, but the best place to save money is in the clubhouse.....the Restaurant is just a loser at a private club.  Why do you think private clubs offer out ther CH to outside events - to offset the operating expense to try to get that portion of the business to break even.

Close the restaurant, keep the grill and locker rooms open to cut down on operating overhead.....much more cost efficient than slashing the maitennce budget or hiking dues to cover the lost revenue due to declining membership.

Bruce- The USA way seems the same way we will trim in the UK too. The problem that may happen in the UK (and I think your way is 100% right) a lot of UK golf clubs are run by committees made up of people that are not experienced in making golf courses work for a profit, also the members of those committees are generally the more active users of the clubhouse, consequently they then vote the clubs interests with their minority opinions. That's often a bad result.

[ChipRoyce]

It is interesting that resturants manage to make it work, even though usually on the slimest of margins.

Is it possible that the food and beverage don't work because due to lack of "competition" per se?

I think it just requires common sense and the ability to think about what the members are willing to support, not what traditions were in the past.

Our club, Prestonwood in Cary NC, has a georgeous clubhouse with many different dining areas. The club with over 900 golfing members and many social members has pretty limited food serivce compared to 'old line" clubs.

Mon - Friday: Lunch Buffet (frequented by the biz community)
Thursday: Family Dinner Buffet
Sunday: Pasta Buffet
Daily: Red Fox (60 seat pub) open for lunch, dinner & drinks (also serves the men's lounge)

[Jason Hines]

Question for the UK group, what are you current membership numbers for your particular club?  Of the three private clubs that I have belonged to in the States, most of them have either capped or were not able to grow their membership numbers above 475.  Dues of my past and present clubs have ranged from £1000 to £2760 per annum.

[Jason Connor]

There is a large housing development in Florida which built a private golf course and hoped to sell houses because of the course, however, they have not sold one house and the course is now open for public play. 

Rick,  which development is this?

Are you referring to Sugarloaf? 

If not, I'm wondering if anyone knows how many homes have been built there?  It seems like a great course but it's a long way from Orlando, and a terrible commute on the Florida turnpike to come into the city each day.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

If not Sugarloaf, it could be Jupiter Country Club(Norman Design) by Toll Brothers. The number of houses actually built there is a very small number from what I understand.

[Doug Siebert]

Speaking as someone who is not and has never been a member or a club, nor seriously contemplated it, I'll throw in my two cents worth for what a club would need to do to induce someone like me to consider it.

The biggest issue in my mind would be thinking of the cost in terms of how much it costs me per round.  I'd always feel like I had to play my own club as much as possible rather than other courses.  But I don't want to play just one course all the time.  If a few clubs joined up (maybe weaker ones in this environment) with some reciprocal deals so I could play the other courses just like were my own (but probably with some restrictions on how often or what times of the day/week) I'd be much more likely to do it.

Most seasons I'll get one of the frequent play pass on the course that I consider my home course, its basically like $75 free for the amount I play (if I played more I could get a bigger one and save more, but I am only playing 12-15 rounds a year there)

One summer I injured myself mountain biking during the summer, ending my golf season halfway through.  Without me even asking, the manager of the course allowed me to carry over the unspent portion of my frequent play pass into next season, even though it is specifically stated that it only covers the single season in which you buy it.  I just found out about it the following season when I was going to buy a new pass, and he told me my dad and told him what happened and he moved my unspent portion into the following year.

How many private clubs would be willing to suspend my dues for the remainder of the reason if that happened?  Probably very few, I would guess.

[Sean_A]

Speaking as someone who is not and has never been a member or a club, nor seriously contemplated it, I'll throw in my two cents worth for what a club would need to do to induce someone like me to consider it.

The biggest issue in my mind would be thinking of the cost in terms of how much it costs me per round.  I'd always feel like I had to play my own club as much as possible rather than other courses.  But I don't want to play just one course all the time.  If a few clubs joined up (maybe weaker ones in this environment) with some reciprocal deals so I could play the other courses just like were my own (but probably with some restrictions on how often or what times of the day/week) I'd be much more likely to do it.

Most seasons I'll get one of the frequent play pass on the course that I consider my home course, its basically like $75 free for the amount I play (if I played more I could get a bigger one and save more, but I am only playing 12-15 rounds a year there)

One summer I injured myself mountain biking during the summer, ending my golf season halfway through.  Without me even asking, the manager of the course allowed me to carry over the unspent portion of my frequent play pass into next season, even though it is specifically stated that it only covers the single season in which you buy it.  I just found out about it the following season when I was going to buy a new pass, and he told me my dad and told him what happened and he moved my unspent portion into the following year.

How many private clubs would be willing to suspend my dues for the remainder of the reason if that happened?  Probably very few, I would guess.

Doug

If you are breaking down cost per round as one of the main criteria for joining a club, then it is highly unlikely you will find somewhere suitable in a midwestern/northern US market.  While the golf is important, a club membership can offer much more than golf if one is suitably inclined toward the social side of a club or even its very competitive side.  That is why it is so important to find a club which really suits your tastes off the course and in a competitive sense.  I know where you are coming from though, I am by nature more of a nomad and I am not really interested in competitive golf other than the minimum to hold a handicap - so I got bored with my home club last year and dropped to a social membership.  I had already forged the friendships (I am not by nature a mingler kind of guy and I hate superficial small talk) with a handful of guys which extended beyond the club and it was apparent I wasn't using the club economically. 

Ciao

[Jason Hines]

Doug,
Your scenario does happen at private clubs, but I would imagine it would depend on the management of both private and public courses as to what they would do.  My former club in Omaha reduced a playing partner's dues after a back injury, no problem.
My choice to go the private route was not going to be on a cost per round basis but I could get a “better” golf experience for the few times I  play per month.   Not as many people hitting into you, screaming at one another, complete drunkenness, 5 hour rounds etc.  I get enough of this at work during the week.
Plus as Sean mentioned above, I have enjoyed the cohesiveness of building weekend 4 somes which I found was a lot harder to do on the public side, because of the nomad nature of public golf.  Just my personal experience, but I could never go back.  Golf is my thing and a private club to me adds to the experience.  However, if I could get all of the above in a public course, no problem.  You usually can in smaller towns in the Midwest.
Sean, can you answer my question in the post above?  How many members do you have at your clubs in the UK?

[cary lichtenstein]

Disney and a handful of other places and companies have an amazing business plan.  Disney is one of those places that is recession proof because families will always want to go there, even if it means saving change in a bucket for years.

Nothing, absolutely nothing is recission "proof", maybe recession "resistant", but everything suffers

[Sean_A]

Sean, can you answer my question in the post above?  How many members do you have at your clubs in the UK?

Jason

I honestly don't know exactly how many members my clubs have or what the "ideal" number is.  That said, I think most 18 hole UK clubs, including all categories, probably run somewhere around 600-700 members.

Ciao 

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