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Peter Pallotta

Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2008, 02:10:11 PM »
Mike - all the changes that you and others mention will no doubt make golf more efficient -- by reducing the number of people who play the game and the number of rounds they play.  The game will be more efficient because existing courses will close and fewer new ones will open. There will be less golfers, but they'll enjoy the game and their time at the golf course more. So yes, in that sense golf will be more efficient.  And there's nothing wrong with any of that, I guess. But while I can be as much of a purist as the next guy, and promote simplicity and a return to the game's roots with the best of them, it seems to me that the flower beds and swimming pools and cart boys and clubouses must've served some need/want and must've served some segment of the golfing populous or otherwise they'd never have appeared/existed in the first place. (Even the high fees for signature designs served a useful function, and probably helped create many a great golf course in an indirect and maybe even unintended way.) And if they served some need/want once, they probably will again, one day. All of which is to say that, while I agree with you and the others about what can/will be lost in this economic downturn, I'm less inclined these days to idealize this situation or to demonize the excesses of country clubs or high-end dailies or to promote anything that smacks of a mono-culture.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 02:14:45 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2008, 02:22:45 PM »
I have never understood why more clubs in the Palm Springs area haven't copied the Plantation or The Palms clubs business model.  Build a nice course, don't break the bank on a clubhouse, large enough to serve breakfast and lunch, small bar, play fast and a large practice area.
Pro shops are small the members are expected to play fast.  These clubs benefit from having members who are also members of other clubs in the area.
The Palms awards free memberships to anyone while playing on one of the tours.
As for other clubs in the desert, Madison Club and Mountain View are struggling, and one 36 hole club has a waiting list of 100 members to sell their membership.

One last add.  I love a club that has a self serve snack bar.  Valley Club and Gulph Mills come to mind.  I realize that on-the-course snack bars can be profit centers, but I love walking into a refrigerator and helping myself to candy bars and drinks....and then signing, of course.


It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2008, 02:30:04 PM »
Mike - all the changes that you and others mention will no doubt make golf more efficient -- by reducing the number of people who play the game and the number of rounds they play.  The game will be more efficient because existing courses will close and fewer new ones will open. There will be less golfers, but they'll enjoy the game and their time at the golf course more. So yes, in that sense golf will be more efficient.  And there's nothing wrong with any of that, I guess. But while I can be as much of a purist as the next guy, and promote simplicity and a return to the game's roots with the best of them, it seems to me that the flower beds and swimming pools and cart boys and clubouses must've served some need/want and must've served some segment of the golfing populous or otherwise they'd never have appeared/existed in the first place. (Even the high fees for signature designs served some useful function, and probably helped create many a great golf course in some indirect and maybe even unintended way.) And if they served some need/want once, they probably will again, some day. All of which is to say that, while I agree with you and the others about what can/will be lost in this economic downturn, I'm less inclined these days to idealize this situation or to demonize the excesses of country clubs or high-end dailies or to promote anything that smacks of a mono-culture.

Peter

Peter,
I think my suggestions will increase play and not reduce play....I definitely don't consider them to be idealized suggestions...I think they are pretty realistic....I am not one calling swimming pools, or carts or tennis courts unrealistic or extreme.  I am saying they should be there to provide for the current membership and not be seen as a promotional tool by some consulting firm as a way to gain all of these future members we hear so much about and who will be expecting waterslides and water parks with outdoor cafes at the pool for the kids etc.  The excesses are not in the specific activities as much as in how all of these activities are presented in a much more costly form....same goes for the golf.....
I have 4 kids ages 25-31 and each has been offered a legacy membership at our club and can do so affordably but not one of them has any interest and the same goes for most of their peers.....
You have'nt heard me say take all the flower beds or  remove the treadmills from the healthclub......all I am saying is keep it presentable and basic.....the hype is over and most reasons the managers have for doing it is to promote new membership sales....I am of the belief that the present membership has more to do with selling the club than hyped amenities.....
And as for golf......is it responsible for a green committee to rework a golf course with green contours that cannot be maintained by the latest riding mowers?  Note: I said latest...they do a great job on some pretty good green complexes.....NO....
If one lets consultants run their business...IMHO they can have huge problems(not to say you cant listen and evalauate) but most clubs don't have the ability to evalate because the boards have limited knowledge of the subject except for the consultant.....therefore associations have become the mentors for our clubs....for example...Toyota manufacturing  is not seeking advise from the UAW as to how to tool their plants and set up their wages  etc....why because they are more efficient....yet so many will go to some association like the USGA and have them advise how to manage a course.....just one example.....
and could go on.....
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 02:37:01 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2008, 02:50:33 PM »
Mike - thanks for that response. Again, I basically agree with you, and I'm no lover of marketing hype or the corporatization of our daily lives. But these kind of threads seem to me to get too simplisitic sometimes (and I've contributed to that many a time myself). Take the example you gave, of the fact that none of your children or any of their peers is interested in an affordable membership at the club. Now, you'll know better than me, but is that because the golf isn't 'pure' and 'simple' enough for them or because the architecture isn't of the highest quality? (I'd guess it has more to do with them not loving the game itself all that much). If you say your suggestions will actually increase and not reduce play, I'll defer to you on that, and I want to believe you. What I'm suggesting is that it just might be possible that all these excesses are part of a cycle that helps keep golf afloat and growing in between economic downturns -- help that golf very much needs given that the next generation of potential golfers seem to be turning away from the game in droves.

Peter     
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 02:52:10 PM by Peter Pallotta »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2008, 03:41:40 PM »
The club that I have belonged to for 13 years was bought two years ago, then bought another course nearby and renamed the entire two course operation.  In the process, they increased our dues by over 25% and added THE least efficient item that I have ever seen at any club anywhere:

Drum roll, please....

13" flat screen high def TV's imbedded in the wall at eye level above each urinal in the men's restroom.

I await your comments.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2008, 03:51:29 PM »
Gives new meaning to the phrase "don't touch that remote".

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2008, 03:52:26 PM »
A.G.
The first thing they should do is make that water warmer in those urinals before adding TV's.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2008, 04:39:43 PM »
 8) Slag B.. re your concern voiced in reply #24.. I was not referring to jr golf, but to the easter egg hunt, halloween costume party , etc.., kiddy social events
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2008, 04:46:43 PM »
Mike,

I think this is going to be the most interesting part of the future of golf.  So here are my thoughts:

1.  Flowers around the tees
2.  Walk mowing greens
3.  Four guys behind the counter
4.  Four people in the administrative office
5.  Teaching pros on staff
6.  Small mowers  - Bring back the gang!
7.  Tight fairways
8.  Primo


Ok, from a mainly maintenance standpoint, I've got to challange some of these....

1) Agreed.....annual flowers are a waste of time and money. However, perennial beds or native plantings can have a rightful place on a golf course, when done well with foresight and good intentions.

2) Walk mowing greens is sometimes not just a function of desire, but of necessity. In general, provided you have a perfectly maintained triplex or walk mower to choose from, the walk mower can usually provide a tighter cut with less wear than a triplex. Also, there are greens so contoured or snuggled into tight spots that it really isn't realistic to put a triplex on them. Often it can be unsafe. Walk mowers however do require either more time, or more operators to get the same job done......more labor hours essentially.

3) Agreed here as well.....however 2 may still be necessary. I just watched my front counter this morning get SLAMMED because the tee sheet is SOLID and it can be near impossible for 1 guy to check in everyone in a timely manner, especially when they want to buy a glove and can't find their size and want some balls, but want to know which play better this time of year, and want to charge part to one credit card and part to another.....if you don't mind being the guy at the back of a 20 person lineup waiting to check in, go ahead and suggest the reduced model to your pro shop.

4) Somewhat agreed, though depends on the model. I actually wish we had a club secratary or accountant because myself (as the super), the GM and the pro can't find near the time we want to get out on the course or with the customers to give the service you all seem to expect with all the laborious paperwork and number crunching and budgeting and accounts payable and personel management and all that other fun stuff managers are expected to do.

5) We have teaching pros on staff for the exact reason just listed above.....our head pro has a hard time making it out of his office between managing all his guys (pro shop desk, outside service, marshalls), scheduliing, inventory, purchasing, tournament planning, etc etc.

6) Gangs are great.....if well maintained and if your trees are few and far between. Truth is many courses would need a serious tree removal program to make use of the gang worthwhile. And others without trees would need to rework much of their mounding in order to be able to get a decent cut and not scalp the heck out of the grass.

7) Not sure what you're getting at with tight fairways.....we need to make them bigger? More grass that needs to be cut on a more regular basis? More fertilizer needed to keep them in good health due to being more stressed at a lower mowing height? Please clarify.

8.) And Primo? Are you a super? I'm pretty certain I could make a good case that the cost of buying and applying Primo as a plant growth regulator is more than worth it in improved playing conditions and the labor saved that would be needed to keep up with the mowing that would give you such playing conditions.

Almost every post on here has gotten me a little fired up and leads me to believe that not many who have posted so far are actually directly involved in running a golf course, be at as a super or pro or GM. It can sometimes be easy to think you can see and solve all that's wrong with the golf industry, but I think you'll only get a good grasp of it once you're on the inside.......there's usually reasons behind everything you dislike, if you just would take the time to talk to someone who's actually involved in the decision making about why it's done that way. Most people just use the "I know best" mentality and don't want to know the whys or why nots. Though I hate to make blanket statements, for most people who think they know better it really is sometimes "best to leave it to the professionals."

(<<--me dons flame-retardant suit :))

JS, my bad, I wasn't clear.  We're mostly on the same page here.
1.  Agreed.
2.  Agreed, although in my experience people use the "necessity" excuse more often than needed, especially since 99% of golfers can't tell the difference between walk mowing and triplexing.  But there are certainly courses that have to be walked.  
3.  Agreed.  One can't handle it alone.  In certain times, three is even necessary, but not on a tuesday afternoon.
4.  Agreed.  There's certain back office staff that are necessary.  I'm talking about assistant membership directors, activity directors, three bookkeepers, and so on.  
5.  Not sure we agree here. But there's no doubt it depends on each course's particular needs.
6.  Agreed, and there are a lot of other architectural features on newer courses that prevent gangs as well (i.e access between holes).
7.  My mistake.  What I meant to say was that fairway heights will come up on those courses that have been looking for tournament quality conditions every day.  Fairways will be cut less often.
8.  Agreed, for the exact reason you state.

Like, Mike, I'm not saying it's black and white and that we'll look like UK clubs.  But the fact is that the majority of golf courses have been focused on driving revenue for the past 10 years, and I think that focus will now shift to managing expenses - however that works for each course.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2008, 05:11:46 PM »
SB, glad we got that cleared up. All too often in reputing things that seem off to me, I just get ripped a new one in response. Nice to converse with someone who knows the discussion board medium is not the most accurate form of communication for ideas to always  be correctly interpreted.

And I whole-heartedly agree with taking a new look at saving expenses as opposed to driving revenues. Golf courses in America are just like the rest of America, they've often gotten greedy and money-hungry and just want to grow, build, rip up and remodel, never looking ahead to see where the money may end. And then.....just like so many of these bailed out cooperations.....they whine and moan and say they just don't understand where they can cut anymore when they still have 30 person maintenance crews and a 10 person wait staff that sits on their hands when no one shows up for dinner anymore.

However, the real problem comes in when you're constantly being asked to increase revenues WHILE cutting expenses. THAT'S the real fun. If anyone knows how to increase outside event bookings while cutting tournament and banquet staff and receiving zero capital funds to replace nasty stained carpet, please give me a call. I know a F&B manager that would love to talk to you.  ;D
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2008, 09:20:01 PM »
We should revisit this thread in about three years because no matter what we discuss here....and now...is of little issue.

 What's still standing then will tell us all we will need to know about successful models.

A painful, but needed, exercise.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2008, 09:29:20 PM »
SB, glad we got that cleared up. All too often in reputing things that seem off to me, I just get ripped a new one in response. Nice to converse with someone who knows the discussion board medium is not the most accurate form of communication for ideas to always  be correctly interpreted.

And I whole-heartedly agree with taking a new look at saving expenses as opposed to driving revenues. Golf courses in America are just like the rest of America, they've often gotten greedy and money-hungry and just want to grow, build, rip up and remodel, never looking ahead to see where the money may end. And then.....just like so many of these bailed out cooperations.....they whine and moan and say they just don't understand where they can cut anymore when they still have 30 person maintenance crews and a 10 person wait staff that sits on their hands when no one shows up for dinner anymore.

However, the real problem comes in when you're constantly being asked to increase revenues WHILE cutting expenses. THAT'S the real fun. If anyone knows how to increase outside event bookings while cutting tournament and banquet staff and receiving zero capital funds to replace nasty stained carpet, please give me a call. I know a F&B manager that would love to talk to you.  ;D

I think my problem is that my brain and my fingers don't work together.  I'd like to think it's that my brain works faster than my fingers, but more and more I'm convinced it's the other way around.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2008, 09:29:34 PM »
The club that I have belonged to for 13 years was bought two years ago, then bought another course nearby and renamed the entire two course operation.  In the process, they increased our dues by over 25% and added THE least efficient item that I have ever seen at any club anywhere:

Drum roll, please....

13" flat screen high def TV's imbedded in the wall at eye level above each urinal in the men's restroom.

I await your comments.

AG

I was just giving Whitney complete grief over that the other day--a sign of the apocalypse ;D

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2008, 12:17:24 AM »
Quote
13" flat screen high def TV's imbedded in the wall at eye level above each urinal in the men's restroom.

Oh Bob, did they mention they are going to put a retractable door on the midget shower, and a quarter slot there to open the urinal and pay for the cable TV bill...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2008, 08:40:48 AM »
The club that I have belonged to for 13 years was bought two years ago, then bought another course nearby and renamed the entire two course operation.  In the process, they increased our dues by over 25% and added THE least efficient item that I have ever seen at any club anywhere:

Drum roll, please....

13" flat screen high def TV's imbedded in the wall at eye level above each urinal in the men's restroom.

I await your comments.

AG

I was just giving Whitney complete grief over that the other day--a sign of the apocalypse ;D

Chris,
I've never been quite sure what the message is.  Watch more TV?  Take a whiz more often?  Do your whizzing at your home club?  Don't take a whiz on the course? 

I'm still confused.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2008, 08:45:31 AM »
 8) We've had the sports pages there.. flat screen tv is quite.. err...  interesting, ..  i hope there's no video camera in there!!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2008, 09:01:42 AM »
THE least efficient item that I have ever seen at any club anywhere:

Drum roll, please....

13" flat screen high def TV's imbedded in the wall at eye level above each urinal in the men's restroom.

I await your comments.

If the cart girls and wait staff is hot enough, those might be in the line of fire, because that would be as low as many guys could pee........
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2009, 09:37:26 PM »
In my opinion and from my experience, you need very few things to make a club work AND to get people to join:

1.  Great golf course in great shape.
2.  Swimming pool where men can meet their families after golf.
3.  Informal grill for families.
4.  Mens grill for card playing, drinking, male bonding.
5.  Patio where you can smoke cigars and enjoy the views.
6.  Warm, friendly staff.

That't it.  My current club is short a mens grill and a patio.  This would finish making all of our constituents happy and elminate potential conflict (group of 8 men loudly discussing their golf versus family of 6 having lunch).

PS.  The pool gives the men an excuse for their wives to let them join!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2009, 10:49:07 PM »
In my opinion and from my experience, you need very few things to make a club work AND to get people to join:

1.  Great golf course in great shape.
2.  Swimming pool where men can meet their families after golf.
3.  Informal grill for families.
4.  Mens grill for card playing, drinking, male bonding.
5.  Patio where you can smoke cigars and enjoy the views.
6.  Warm, friendly staff.

That't it.  My current club is short a mens grill and a patio.  This would finish making all of our constituents happy and elminate potential conflict (group of 8 men loudly discussing their golf versus family of 6 having lunch).

PS.  The pool gives the men an excuse for their wives to let them join!

ick-

you think the new men's grille (and patio) would make all your constituents happy.....?
I'd say that's where your troubles would begin. ::) ::)


how about?
1.good golf course with good company
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt Day

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2009, 03:22:34 AM »
Come and look at how the Australians do it  :)

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2009, 06:57:57 AM »

ick-

you think the new men's grille (and patio) would make all your constituents happy.....?
I'd say that's where your troubles would begin. ::) ::)


Having a men's grill WITHOUT a family grill is causing a lot of my troubles right now.  It sure would be nice to separate the two populations and cater to those two groups (50/50 at my club).  The patio is personal with me.  We have an area outside of our ballroom that looks out over the entire golf course (12 holes are in view).  A stone patio with a firepit would really be special for BOTH groups.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2009, 07:35:20 AM »
My experience has been this...how do you make any money in the grill room/restaurant/clubhouse? 
Project 2025....All bow down to our new authoritarian government.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2009, 09:07:37 AM »
My experience has been this...how do you make any money in the grill room/restaurant/clubhouse? 

Craig,
answer?
build another and make up the losses on volume ;).

which is followed of course by another because........ ::) :P
Ding! Ding! Ding!
the ladies need their own grill too.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2009, 09:19:23 AM »
My experience has been this...how do you make any money in the grill room/restaurant/clubhouse? 

You have to have a strong banquet operation.  The money you make off banquets covers the shortfall in a la carte member dining.  Breaking even is a wonderful and rare thing.  Most clubs have replaced tipping and service charges with a monthly "F&B Contribution"... along with a minimum spending requirement. The F&B Contribution is simply moving additional dues from the "Membership Dues" line item on the income statement into F&B to make it look better.  Just like capital contributions make the member think they aren't paying additional dues.  In my opinion, any fixed amount that comes out of a members' pocket on a monthly basis should be called "dues."   

Comparing apples to apples... if I could move a portion of my dues into the F&B department... we would pull in 600k and spend 590k.  Another big club here pulls in 4.400 million and spends 4.390 million.   We both net 10k in the end... but only with an "F&B Contribution" propping things up... not to mention the unspent minimum.  F&B should be viewed as a member amenity... not a profit center.  You can make money... but it's going to come from banquets.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:22:44 AM by Roger Wolfe »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Efficiency in the U.S.
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2009, 09:34:48 AM »
Roger,
Why does a golf course need "amenities"?
attracting a population that doesn't want/need amenities allows dues and green fee revenue to go to efficiently running the golf operation.

The bigger you get as you please more people,the more you need "banquets" ::) ::)  /minimums/capital contributions to fund their ideas.

Mike Young's got this right, regardless of who's running the operation.

When the word "Chef" enters the equation, the game changes.
"Executive chef" and it's over.

Golf course, good people, and a cooler (I'm OK with the patio though ;D)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey