Best set of Par 5's

[Gene Greco]

Ben:

Sand Hills wasn't built when Tom reviewed it in his Cofidential Guide.

He placed the course among his 31 favorites without the course having been completed!

Maybe Tom would like to reevalute his judgement concerning the par fives now that the course is complete.

Furthermore, he was at Sand Hills last week so his thoughts should be mighty fresh.  

Played Muirfield in Oct. Their par fives, as those at every other course I've played, are dwarfed by those at Sand Hills from every possible perspective.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

There are many wonderful things about NGLA--the uniqueness about so much of the architecture, many many of the holes but as much as I love the place I certainly would never put NGLA's par 5s in a competition with the best! I know you love #18, so do I but it's not really in the same company of others and #9, in my opinion is about the only questionable hole on the course--or at least the second half of it is. The others #5 and #7 are really half pars today for very good golfers--if you want to call half pars great par 5s! They aren't even "go/no go" par 5s, just half pars!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Gene/Tom,
That makes sense, given the great praise I have heard, it seems like a major ommission.

Are the fives stronger than the threes?  I have heard it has a great set of short holes as well.  Maybe it is just a great course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I answered the question in the context of the cross section of golfers on this site, not PGA tour players, and as such,
my view of NGLA par 5's remains, unmoved by radical seperatist, disbelievers.  

["Tom Doak"]

Muirfield:

"Each of the three par 5 holes is an essay on bunker placement, and as a set they are probably the best three-shotters on any course in the world."

[Paul Richards]

I have two to propose as having the best set of par 5's:

Classic course - Beverly CC in Chicago

Modern course - Spring Hill in Minneapolis

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

What about the Par 5's at The Golf Club?  Dye did some of his best three-shotters there.

[Gene Greco]

Though I prefer the style of architecture at NGLA over Shinnecock's, I believe the par 5s at Shinny (though only two of them) are superb.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene,

Do you feel the prevailing wind gives a much greater edge to
#16 over # 5 ?

Do you feel the prevailing wind, diminishes the appreciation for # 5 ?

[Gene Greco]

Patrick:

    Not anymore.

The helping prevailing wind on #5 adds to the challenges which the hole presents. A split fairway with a cape type left fairway combined with a pinching of the fairway in the landing area of the second shot and angles galore and options aplenty surely captures my attention.

The new super has cleared the back of the green and shaved the hill bald. The fairways are now hard and extremely fast. Any thoughts of going for it must factor in the real possibility of going over and the inevitable bogey since the green slopes severely from back to front.

Thus the new ideal maintenance meld has returned a strategic par 5 back to just that. Though #16 is the premier hole I feel both together should give Shinny consideration as a course with great par 5s.

[A_Clay_Man]

Shivas- I have wanted to say Blackwolf Run but it always seems so futile. If it isnt NGLA or shinnethingy the doyens don't even bite, they won't even lite.

The first on the River (and the orig 1st) is a wonderful opener. I believe it's called snake cause it mimics the river.
Then my personal favorite of all time, Hell's Gate #8. The drive thru the shoot to the V that throws your ball right if you can catch the left side. Split fairway to the green with massive bunkers betwix. Then it's #16 Unter der linden the great risk reward bunkerline on the left side let's you bit off what you can chew then to that awesome greensite with a linden tree(?) gaurding the green like a Gargoyel waiting to pounce.The green sits 25' above the river  Any miss step and your breaking your neck on the rocks below. I love the life threating aspect.

But one can't forget about the Valley nine's par 5's. The second(orig 11th) which use to introduce you to the long bunker scheme up the left side. Then there is the orig 16th with the blind tee shot over the wooden shed  to the gunsighted fairway which culminates with a smallish green guarded on the right by the Gobi.

Lets face it boys if there are ten better modern courses than the orig BWR I have yet to see five. But then again I dont have the PC of a Tom Huckaby or the bankroll of Doyen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

AClayman,

You wouldn't want me to comment on a golf course I've never played, would you.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Sand Hills par-5s are out of this world but Cape Breton and The Golf Club's are not far behind. Crystal Down's ain't bad either.

[Mike_Cirba]

Not being a doyen, but simply a doyen wannabe , I would agree with Adam and Dave about Blackwolf Run's par fives in particular, and many of Pete Dye's par fives in general (forgetting that zig-zagging stinker on the front nine at Whistling Straits).  

Almost without fail, each shot requires meaningful thought and careful execution.  Whether they are reachable in two or not, rarely are they less than creatively original.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Patrick I would not want you to comment on a course you have not seen. The question is why haven't you seen it/ them?

I go out of my way to see some of the newest and few of us have the op to see most of the oldest. The courses you and Tepaul debate are as foriegn to me as I'm sure some of these are to you.
With all do respect, Sometimes it comes off as snooty or better put, exclusive.
 However, if I am wrong and you do seek out the newer venues, I apoligize.

 Lord knows there are too many of them, to see them all.

[Bill_Ryzewski]

Pebble Beach's par 5's are greatly overated. In fact, I'd call them, strategically, weak.

[Evan_Green]

I agree with an earlier post that Pebble is a strong contender- but only if #2 is a par 4. How about Augusta? They may not be as "strong" as others in terms of difficulty, but it is 13 and 15 that make the last 9 at the masters really exciting because such a large range of scores can be made on these holes (ask Ernie and Vijay!)

[A_Clay_Man]

Shivas- I couldn't help myself and realize that even my small question came off as confrontational. It was only meant to spur discussion. I have heard from some who have met the Doyens that while they can be as feisty as all get out when discussing here on gca.com, given the op to meet them they are as gracious a host as one could hope for. Perhaps I should change my style, but then it wouldn't be mine, now would it?

Well golly gosh guys I just really appreciate the repartee' and hope we all can do our best not to take ourselves so seriously.

(How's that?)

By the By, love the 140-160 reference.

Now Bill Ryzewski- I can't help but disagree about Pebble. Even the second as a par 5 is a great hole. Perhaps it's the placement in the round, but the carry off the tee is no slouch, then the decision to go or not to go for the green is as exciting as most great moments, anywhere, Then there is the green, I've heard someone describe it as pretty straight forward. I don't think so. The narrowness, with bunkers on both sides and absolute death, long, makes for a challenge that one must be up for. The slopes and contrary slopes within the green are mind-f***ing at best.

 I will relate a story about a caddy who was fired because he told 2 time u.s. open winner Andy North not to read his amateurs putts, after totally mis-reading the hacks potential eagle and subsequent birdie putts on #2. (He actually told the guy his putts towards the back was downhill. NOT)

#6 used to be the start of what I called heaven. Now with the new 5th it begins there. The sixth is another hole that with two perfect shots you have a chance to score. The subtle nuances from the downhill lie in the fairway to the uncertainty of exactly where the green is, makes the hole awesome and the esthetics are hard to rival. The green is another tricky one with a subtle hogsback running right center which narrows the green even more than it actually is. And if you think its uphill to the back... you may be right but only the very rear, Otherwise you'd be wise to play the point lobos pull.

15 is brutal and the green a work of art. I lament the removal of the trees that were great visual guides off the tee, but I guess Shwab knows they're weeds.

And 18 is just another one of those starightforward finnishers ha ha

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

My family and business obligations do take up a good portion of my time, as does playing golf for business, social, competitive and personal pursuits.

When an opportunity to visit a new site arises, if my schedule permits, I'll make the trip.

I won two trips to play two sets of courses at a charity affair
They include the following courses which I have never played

Crystal Downs,
The Golf club
Oakland hills
Inverness
Double Eagle
Scioto

You couldn't ask for a better set could you, yet,
Unfortunately, I just haven't been able to schedule the trips.

While I have played a good number of courses, there are those that I haven't gotten to yet, hopefully, I'll get there.
In the meantime I'll continue to refrain from assessing the ones I haven't played.

NGLA.....   I guess my love of the architecture, actually the genius of the architecture overwhelms me.  I've had so many people, knowledgeable people,  tell me that they learn more each time they visit the place, as do I.  It is very special, and I hope you get to see and play it on a day with perfect conditions.

I've been called a lot of things, but you're the first to call me  snooty, it just doesn't fit, and I'm sorry if you think TEPaul and I come off that way.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I really wasn't calling you snooty. I hope you see that.

I still don't know why after 13 years of existance you haven't made the trek to Sheboygan co.
After all, even Pete Dye called it the most natural setting for golf he'd ever seen.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Bill,
I cannot understand what about Pebble's par fives your dislike (2 excluded.)

Please explain, I stongly disagree.  6, 14 and 18 are three great par fives.

[A_Clay_Man]

Correction due to dislexsia:

The subtle hogsback on #6 at PB is left center.

[Bill_Ryzewski]

First let me explain my sensationalistic post at 1:30 Saturday morning. I made the post after 4 pints of fine Belgian Ale. I regret using the words greatly and weak .

I do believe PBGL’s par fives have an inherent weakness, though.  My perception is there is a lack of options on shots one and two.  The tee shots ARE straight forward, anywhere in the fairway (except behind the tree on 18, which blocks any ideas of a conservative route) and long. The second shots on the last 3  are lay-ups for all but the strongest players in the world.

I like PBGL. My first time around was a thrill. I don’t think 2, 6, 14 and 18 are bad holes (very good infact), they are just not the best set in the world or, more aptly, what I would consider great par 5’s. I like ANGC's set better.

[Bill_Ryzewski]

Mean't 14 not 15.

[Solario]

Has anyone said Kapalua's Plantation Course yet? All four par fives are very strong.  All four of them (#'s 5,9,15 and 18 ) give you different options and thats what a good par five should do.  Any thoughts on these holes?