Grain on greens

[Michael Rossi]

2 questions for the GCA regarding grain on greens.

Do you prefer greens to have grain or not?

How does an architect design for grain?

[cary lichtenstein]

Another question for your thread is what percentage of golfers take grain into account for full shots into a green, partial shots and shots around the green, shots from the sand and putting.

I'd bet that most don't even think about it until they get on the putting surface.

[Tommy Williamsen]

With the new strains of grass and double cutting, how much grain is there really?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

1) Prefer little or none

2) Don't know

I remember greens being a little grainy when I was a kid, that's in CT..  I think it was a combination of higher cut and Poa that made it so, but that's just a guess on my part. Now it seems like the trend around here is lean and mean, and a by-product of that approach is zero (or as near as you can get) grain......and it seems that every financially healthy club in the south has gone to some hybrid or other to get rid of grain.

The first time I played golf in FL I almost snapped my old Bull's Eye around a Palm tree.  

[Michael Rossi]

IMO grain should not be present. It changes through out the day and from day to day and unlike wind you can not feel it or test it when playing within the rules of the game.

I do not see how an architect could design a putting surface and account for grain.

I prefer that the maintenance manage the turf to reduce or eliminate it as much as possible.

IMO grain takes the ball on a path that is contrary to what our eyes tell us, and what the design of the surface had intended.

[John Moore II]

Of the bermuda and bent greens I have played recently, I can't tell much of a difference in greens with or without grain. As long as the greens are smooth and fast, I am fine.

As far as an architect designing for grain, I don't see how, considering the grain (from what I know) does not grow in a defined direction at all times.

[Kyle Harris]

IMO grain should not be present. It changes through out the day and from day to day and unlike wind you can not feel it or test it when playing within the rules of the game.

I do not see how an architect could design a putting surface and account for grain.

I prefer that the maintenance manage the turf to reduce or eliminate it as much as possible.

IMO grain takes the ball on a path that is contrary to what our eyes tell us, and what the design of the surface had intended.

Having lived in Florida for two years and being around several northern courses that encourage grain - I have NEVER had a problem reading or accounting for the grain.

Green contours were much more severe - and grain in greens was among the factors that allowed those slopes to be playable.

[Ken Moum]

With the new strains of grass and double cutting, how much grain is there really?

There's some validity in that question, but I'd guess that 99 percent of golfers almost never play on a course with those new strains of grass, or on double-cut greens.

On of the great tragedies that has been produced by the "improvements" in golf course maintenance is the attempted elimination of grain.

Once a year I play a tournament on a course that has small greens and a very limited budget. Nevertheless, the super there produces conditions that are wonderful to play on.

He does NOT, however, do anything to eliminate grain. I talked to him this fall, while I was there, and he said that on 16 of his greens, any attempt to do a Stimp reading results in the ball rolling off the green. And he's not cutting them at .100".

I would guess that if you could somehow temporarily make them dead level, there'd still be a several-foot difference between into the grain and with the grain.

It adds a strategic and skill element to the course that no other cost-saving technique could impart.

By simply not worrying about the grain, this course has saved significant maintenance costs, and and forced golfer to think about every approach shot, chip and putt.

I love the place, because it gives me an edge over "better" golfers who don't pay attention and just hit shots.

If we'd simply tell golfers that reading grain was a required skill like hitting 3/4 wedges, reading slope, and hitting a driver in play, the game would be better for it.

Ken

[Anthony Gray]

  I prefer no grain. No grain just seems like the roots of the game.

 Does poa have grain? If not why do poa greens break toward the water?

  Anthony

[Joe Hancock]

Grain used to be one of those factors that would require an ability to read/ understand the effects on the upcoming chip or putt. It would give a competitive edge to the player that took the time to understand it and practice the techniques to succeed on grainy surfaces.

But, like distance judgment, it went to the wayside in the name of fairness or whatever, rendering the ballstriking capability the main differentiating factor between a golfer and his opponent(assuming the golfers even have any kind of match going, which may become obsolete at some time as well).

So long, grain, I hardly knew you......

Joe

[Deucie Bies]

I prefer no grain.  Unfortunately, I play in Florida and have to deal with it all of the time.  I still struggle to read the greens at my course.  I prefer the greens in the north where I grew up.  Much faster and I tend to read them better.

[Tom_Doak]

If any architect "designs for grain," it would be the first time I've heard of it.

Most of the newer bentgrass strains (and poa annua for that matter) don't have any grain to speak of.  At least, if they do, I don't know how I can be ignorant of it and yet make so many putts.

[Mike McGuire]

In the bent/poa world of the upper midwest (USA) grain is a non event. It exists, and can be exploited, but too much about nothing.

[Sam Maryland]

1.  I kind of like a little grain.  lived in Fla for 6 years, licked grain after a couple.  recently played Crandon and almost laughed out loud a few times as guys knocked 8-footers 15-feet by due to no understanding about grain.  caddies are a PITA most places, but they can flat out pay for themselves reading grain for guys from up north who aren't familiar with  the concept.

2.  defer to TD.

[Brad Huff]

Living in Texas (Dallas), some of you more in the know than me give me a ranking of grasses from most to least grain (all things being equal other than type)

[Steve Lang]

  VIVA LA GRAIN ..

how can something so natural be so anathema to gca purists??

[Michael Rossi]

Steve

Thank ou for teaching me a new word however; nothing natural about growing grass at todays greens height.

Wiki: Anathema (in Greek Ανάθεμα) originally meant something lifted up as an offering to the gods; later, with evolving meanings, it came to mean:

to be formally set apart,
banished, exiled, excommunicated or
offensive, denounced, sometimes accursed
a literary term

Putting greens are the result of the manipulation of nature, why do half the job?

Brad

To keep it easy - most to least grain
Bermuda's (warn season turfs)
Poa's
creeping bentgrass
fescues 
bunch type bentgrass (no grain upright growth)

MR

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mike,
  If you consider "bunch" type grasses as those with the least grain, why is POA in the middle of your list...its a bunch type grass...

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Brad Huff]

Thanks!  I would have put them in roughly that order, but I don't get paid to know that stuff!

Tony, I just shot you a pm...

[Michael Rossi]

Tony

I just put bunch type bents to show the difference between them and the creepers. Poa's and fescues depending on which one of each could flip. Poa's grow faster in the full sun and shade than the bents and some fescues but to keep it easy for the layman I did it that way.

What are your thought?

MR

[TEPaul]

Michael:

The only club and course I'm aware of that dedicatedly tried to cultivate lots of grain back into their greens is Huntingdon Valley and it's pretty interesting, pretty cool to play really. To play it I never got that concerned about break really, but you need to concentrate on differences in speed for sure.

[Joe Hancock]

VIVA LA GRAIN ..

how can something so natural be so anathema to gca purists??

Refer to reply #9......

Purists have egos too...

[Bradley Anderson]

I can say from experience that if you want consistent speeds of at least 10, you just can't allow grain to develop because the ball is rolling more on the sides of the leaf blades rather than the tips of the leaf blades, and that creates too much drag on the ball.

There is nothing wrong however with having many different kinds of grasses on a green.

And there is nothing wrong with a Swedish smorgasbord dinner either - bye.

[TEPaul]

"I can say from experience that if you want consistent speeds of at least 10, you just can't allow grain to develop because the ball is rolling more on the sides of the leaf blades rather than the tips of the leaf blades, and that creates too much drag on the ball."


Bradley:

You may've noticed the name Linc Roden from HVGC mentioned on here over the years. Scott Anderson mentioned him in his speech on video over here the other day. He was the man responsible for turning around the maintenance practices of that course over 25 years ago now to one of real firm and fast.

Linc also truly believed in not just NOT ridding greens of grain but actually doing everything possible to promote grain. If there is any disappointment for Linc these days with HVGC it's probably that the promotion of real grain did not go far enough and was not sustained.

I believe Linc likes fairly high green speeds but he firstly believes golfers should learn how to read and play some real grain.

So if you can imagine a flat "stimpable" green surface (where the rollout would be within the 18 inch protocol either way (with little to no grain)) Linc would not mind at all if that flat stimpable surface read well outside that protocol due to being down-grain one way and into the grain in the opposite direction.

Very obviously Linc Roden does not at all believe in verticutting (degraining greens) or brushing and cutting. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mike,
  I agree with you. I just wanted to see where you were coming from.

  If a green has an over abundance of grain in it, or is actually 'promoted', how can the green put 'true' from front to back, side to side? I cannot for the life of me think of one good, long term reason of promoting grain, especially on warm season turfgrass. With all our advances in technology, today's expectations of golfers and pace of play issues, do we really want golfers spending MORE time on greens trying to read grain? The less grain the better.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX