Castle Stuart goes live

[Gary Gruber]

Appologies, these figures were purely for illustration, I am not aware of thier target figures.

[Mark Pearce]

Gary,

For this purpose, the exact figures don't matter.  What matters is whether Castle Suart will get enough rounds at £150 to break even.  I doubt it and part of me hopes they don't.  £150 for a round is too much for almost anywhere, let alone a new course without any history or tradition, no matter how good it is.  What makes the team there think they can get away with a higher green fee than TOC, The Castle Course or Kingsbarns?  Particularly since St Andrews gets far more golfing traffic than Inverness.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

although I also wonder how they will do at £150 in the Inverness area, I am sure that Mark Parnisan has done his home work. He has a lot of experience having done this already at KB and although I am not sure that it will be possible to top KB I can imagine that CS will be its equal.
Also, with Chris Haspell at the helm of the greenkeeping team you can be sure the course will play as well as any in the land.

I will be up in the area end of January and will make a point of looking Chris up and seeing how it looks.

[Dan Herrmann]

£150 = about $220 US today.

That's less than Bandon.  Shoot, it's not THAT much more than Dye's Bulle Rock in Maryland USA.

[Brian Phillips]

Gary,

For this purpose, the exact figures don't matter.  What matters is whether Castle Suart will get enough rounds at £150 to break even.  I doubt it and part of me hopes they don't.  £150 for a round is too much for almost anywhere, let alone a new course without any history or tradition, no matter how good it is.  What makes the team there think they can get away with a higher green fee than TOC, The Castle Course or Kingsbarns?  Particularly since St Andrews gets far more golfing traffic than Inverness.

Maybe the cost of the project was more than cost of constructing The Castle Course or Kingsbarns?

If it is as good as it looks, $220 will be no problem.

[Anthony Gray]

  Brain,

  Good point. I would shell out the same fee for this course that I would Kingsbarns. The question is will people travel for it. I can see a wonderful loop that includes Cruden Bay and Royal Dornach.

  By looking at those photos it does not seem overpriced.


    Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

From Hanse's website:

[Brian Phillips]

Anthony,

I would play it just because it is designed by Gil who deserves one of these big ones on his cv now.

That loop would also include Royal Aberdeen...

[Rob Rigg]

I wonder if CS has a $100 replay rate like they do at BD?

It would make things a bit more palatable.

Did DMKs Course get a ton of play this year? That would be a good benchmark in terms of greens fee. There are just so many great courses in Scotland that a lot of people who are not flush with cash will skip 18 at CS so they can play 36 elsewhere, especially in this economic environment.

That being said, if you are on a "once in a lifetime trip" and make you way to Inverness, you might just suck it up if the course is as good as it looks.

O to be rich . . .

[Kalen Braley]

Just to add my two cents...

It was my impression that BDs greens fees started out much much cheaper than thier current rates....certainly far less than $220. And not to forget that the resort can still be had for relativly cheap rates in the off-season.

In the end though, if they can make it work on $220 rounds then more power to them...I just don't know if they should count on many rounds from overseas guests with things being as they presently are. It'd be interesting to take a look at their revenue forecasts and thier break even points.

[Michael Dugger]

That's a great image Garland!

[David_Tepper]

Don't forget that Castle Stuart is about a 6-minute drive west from Inverness Airport, which makes it as accessible as any golf course in Scotland. Nairn is about a 15-minute drive east from Inverness Airport and Dornoch is 55 minutes going north. That trio of courses will make an attractive rota for a 3- to 5-day golf-break or leg of a longer golf journey.     

[Neil_Crafter]

I have read the R.D.G.C thread and as someone who lives in Dornoch, been a member for a dozen years and played it many hundreds of times, i agree with much of that threads content, however it really depends on your idea of the golfing experience.

I know if I owned a golf course I would rather have 6000 rounds at £150 than 12k @£75

Gary
On the face of it that may be true, but an operator would prefer 12,000 rounds over 6,000 as more sales in the pro shop, food and beverage etc with 12,000 bodies going through, total income would be greater. Also, 12,000 rounds a year is not much from a maintenance perspective.

Looks like a wonderful course but I also have to wonder how many people have that sort of dough for a round of golf in the current economic climate?
cheers Neil

[David_Tepper]

Neil C. -

The future plans for Castle Stuart include a boutique hotel, spa and time-share lodges.  There will be no problem keeping visitors (and their money ) around and on the premises for a while!

DT

[Scott Macpherson]

To offer a brief history lesson....

when Mark Parsinen (and Art Dunkley) opened Kingsbarns (in about 2000), they set the green fee above that of the Old Course. It was an unheard of concept. Many laughed, scoffed and scorned at the decision. They stuck to their guns, offered a great product, and people came, paid and played. Soon other courses followed – heck, even The Links Trust took the opportunity to boost the green fees on TOC.

I can see the same happening here. Mr Parsinen is offering another great product, and in a few years (at most), Narin, Brora, R.Dornock etc will all put up their green fees to near what CS has proposed.

I guess, if due to the totally different economic climate, few do go to play CS, then they may review their position. That's business.

Another angle some may not have considered is the golf tour market. I can guarantee that Mr Parsinen and Co, will have aggressively approached the tour industry to entice them to bring groups to CS. Deals will be done to get the word of mouth out. And that's called marketing. I have never met anyone better at it than Mr Parsinen.

I wish them the best of luck. There will never be enough good golf courses in the world. And, as someone clever once said, 'a rising tide floats all boats'.

Happy New Year.


Scott

[Garland Bayley]

Rob,

Here's your replay rate.

This looks stunning. Have a read of the reviews on the top 100 website - these combined with what I have just seen on the website make this look a sure contender to be high up in the next rankings - £150/ round or £225 a day is a bit steep this far north but it looks like they are going to attract visitors if the hype carries on

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/productdetails.asp?id=1842

[Rob Rigg]

Thanks Garland.

So essentially - CS and BD are both the same for 36 a day, of course at BD you will have 4 courses to choose from versus one. 

[Lyne Morrison]

For those of you interested in the construction approach -- enjoy

Cheers -- L


Castle Stuart 1- new links course
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6oO7gzd9iM

Castle Stuart 2 – bunkers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck8q8MsF1e8

Castle Stuart 3 – 3rd shot on par 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_N4YsqTpQU

Castle Stuart 4 – bunker ‘chunking’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt7-YnG0Mhw

Castle Stuart 5 - heather
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH4Tk3IPiDE

Castle Stuart - Hole 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQXhBTh7_EA

Castle Stuart – hydroseeding fescue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgworTGd72E

[Tim Liddy]

I agree with Scott. I have toured the golf course and give it my highest marks. Stunning golf course and a stunning site. It will be a great success. Most people do not understand how beautiful this part of Scotland is and very much worth the travel. With Nairn, Brora and Royal Dornoch – wow! Mr. Parsinen is currently one of the most innovative people in golf. He should be commended for his vision and great attention to detail.

[Jim Nugent]

What matters is whether Castle Suart will get enough rounds at £150 to break even. 

What is break even, i.e. how many rounds at that price? 

[Mark Chaplin]

KB is a success due to overseas visitors, no doubt the tour operators there get a discount. I wonder what percentage of play is UK based? All we need is some world unrest and many of our visitors from the West disappear.

Personally I like the real deal when I play golf, if it's links then a course that's a 100+ years old, members who add character, trophies and honours boards that add history to the place. The modern courses I've played maybe good to play but the experience is lacking in something. I maybe out of tune with many GCA'ers but hyper priced modern resort links courses do nothing for me.

Also Scotland is becoming awash with hotel and golf complexes. Some very good such as Turnberry and Gleneagles, a couple in and around St Andrews to name just a few. CS will be competing again Trump, Machrihanish and other in a few years time.

I start to feel like a Cuban or Jamacian hearing about another all inclusive resort opening down the road, it maybe nice but these places will never get my custom.

[Mark Pearce]

I start to feel like a Cuban or Jamacian hearing about another all inclusive resort opening down the road, it maybe nice but these places will never get my custom.

I think you may have put your finger on why I feel so uncomfortable with this.  In the UK and in Scotland in particular, golf has been a game where almost anyone can play.  These developments, with their associated posh hotels and other facilities represent a quantum change from that and a move towards the American model.  In my book that's a bad thing.

Scott talks approvingly of how this development will allow other local courses to charge more. I can see how, as a developer, that may be seen as a good thing.  For me, as a golfer, and my children as developing golfers, and for the people living in that area wanting to play golf it is potentially a bad thing.  This cannot be seen as a golden age for design if wonderful designs are being created which are not accessible to the majority of golfers.

[Sean_A]

To offer a brief history lesson....

when Mark Parsinen (and Art Dunkley) opened Kingsbarns (in about 2000), they set the green fee above that of the Old Course. It was an unheard of concept. Many laughed, scoffed and scorned at the decision. They stuck to their guns, offered a great product, and people came, paid and played. Soon other courses followed – heck, even The Links Trust took the opportunity to boost the green fees on TOC.

I can see the same happening here. Mr Parsinen is offering another great product, and in a few years (at most), Narin, Brora, R.Dornock etc will all put up their green fees to near what CS has proposed.

I guess, if due to the totally different economic climate, few do go to play CS, then they may review their position. That's business.

Another angle some may not have considered is the golf tour market. I can guarantee that Mr Parsinen and Co, will have aggressively approached the tour industry to entice them to bring groups to CS. Deals will be done to get the word of mouth out. And that's called marketing. I have never met anyone better at it than Mr Parsinen.

I wish them the best of luck. There will never be enough good golf courses in the world. And, as someone clever once said, 'a rising tide floats all boats'.

Happy New Year.


Scott

Scott

I don't think anybody is questioning the quality of the product.  I know for my part, I really question if this sort of development is good for golf.  I too believe that these resort courses push prices up round the board.  In the short term this may be great for the clubs, but in the long term, if some of these clubs continue to try and run with resorts, I think they will be cutting their own throats.  Like Mark, I too would much rather play a storied club because I figure I am there as much for the experience as the golf.  Otherwise, why the hell would I travel to Scotland or Ireland?  I can get plenty of great golf without ever having to spend a night in a hotel.  However, places like Muirfield and Portmarnock have priced themselves out of my range of willingness to pay and I can only hope not too many follow this route, but I fear Co Down, Ballybunion, Lahinch and a score of other great clubs are doing so as I type. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sean, assuming you hadn’t already played them, would you pay the currentprice for a first visit to Portmarnock and Muirfield?  I would and will when I get the chance to play Troon, Birkdale, yes even Pebble Beach. It would be very interesting to know what percentage of these ‘top tier’ bookings are driven by single play visits?  If less people travel in the next few years they could catch a cold too.  I expect to see these courses improve their marketing e.g. give each visitor a little pack telling them about the historical significance and explaining why they have come to play this name (I’m sure many on tour come because the course is now effectively a Brand – a name they trust to deliver without really knowing why).   In the ones I’ve been too I’ve mostly been treated politely but, e.g. for my £140 in November at Birkdale, in no way did I feel like a special visitor.  (I’m unlikely to go back there).

Am I imagining it, but it seems to me that the number of people on this board from the US who used to chip in with “that course looks interesting I’ll include it on my next visit” has fallen, and the attitude of “I don’t know when I’ll get back so I want to see as much as possible” is rising?

My gut feeling is this recession will increase the divide in prices between the top and second tier courses.  Parsinen is using price to sending out a clear statement that he wants his new course to be up there with the ‘best’, a must play.  He knows that market and figures that enough people will look at the green fee and decide it’s a must play, whatever.  With the slide in the pound he must be sleeping a little better.

Mark and Mark, I share your preference for the historical.  I haven’t been to Kingsbarns but I’m guessing that a lot of people a long way from home like getting some service that they can more closely relate too?  It has its place and yes it will affect the way the home clubs present themselves to ALL visitors – and this will be reflected in price - where they can.  Some call it progress.

The big Question is will I give him my money?  Probably not unless I am holidaying in the area and have already added Nairn to my list. Oh yes and after that Braid one on the peninsular –can’t imagine it as a destination course but I’d still love to play it. So for me it’s not that likely no matter what the reviews.

[Sean_A]

Sean, assuming you hadn’t already played them, would you pay the currentprice for a first visit to Portmarnock and Muirfield?  I would and will when I get the chance to play Troon, Birkdale, yes even Pebble Beach. It would be very interesting to know what percentage of these ‘top tier’ bookings are driven by single play visits?  If less people travel in the next few years they could catch a cold too.  I expect to see these courses improve their marketing e.g. give each visitor a little pack telling them about the historical significance and explaining why they have come to play this name (I’m sure many on tour come because the course is now effectively a Brand – a name they trust to deliver without really knowing why).   In the ones I’ve been too I’ve mostly been treated politely but, e.g. for my £140 in November at Birkdale, in no way did I feel like a special visitor.  (I’m unlikely to go back there).

Am I imagining it, but it seems to me that the number of people on this board from the US who used to chip in with “that course looks interesting I’ll include it on my next visit” has fallen, and the attitude of “I don’t know when I’ll get back so I want to see as much as possible” is rising?

My gut feeling is this recession will increase the divide in prices between the top and second tier courses.  Parsinen is using price to sending out a clear statement that he wants his new course to be up there with the ‘best’, a must play.  He knows that market and figures that enough people will look at the green fee and decide it’s a must play, whatever.  With the slide in the pound he must be sleeping a little better.

Mark and Mark, I share your preference for the historical.  I haven’t been to Kingsbarns but I’m guessing that a lot of people a long way from home like getting some service that they can more closely relate too?  It has its place and yes it will affect the way the home clubs present themselves to ALL visitors – and this will be reflected in price - where they can.  Some call it progress.

The big Question is will I give him my money?  Probably not unless I am holidaying in the area and have already added Nairn to my list. Oh yes and after that Braid one on the peninsular –can’t imagine it as a destination course but I’d still love to play it. So for me it’s not that likely no matter what the reviews.

Tony

That would depend on my time in life.  If the green fees were comparably ridiculous some 20 years ago I probably would have paid the freight charge.  If it were now in my life, knowing what I do, no, I wouldn't pay to play a great many courses I have seen.  So you guessed it, I ain't never gonna play Pebble, but I'm ok with that.  At this point in my life I get at least as much a kick out of playing the lesser courses as I do the big guns.  And as you know, I honestly don't think there is nearly the discrepency in quality between many of the lesser praised courses as many of the big guns - reputations are big part of impressions.

The one thing Stuart Links has going for it is the proximity to the airport.  It makes for a very easy venue to play coming and/or going.  To be honest, this was the only reason I played Nairn.  It fit the flight times best and I knew we couldn't get too stuffed in traffic after the game.  So, from this perspective, I could see possibly playing that course one day, but it isn't likely.

Ciao