[Jeff_Brauer]

Jay,

Its only a little further if you go the main roads.  I just like the gravel roads.

MSP is full of great golf courses, but most are private so you need connections.  Out on that side of town, Nicklaus has a course but the best might be John Foughts new one, whose name escapes me at the moment.....There is also a plethora of Golden Age courses.  The U of M course is Raynor without too many changes.

[Jay Flemma]

Julie's connected with U of M, so that's solved.  What can you tell me about U of M course?

[Matthew Rose]

I redid the greens at Pioneers in 1988 or 1989.  My instructions were to do a bunkerless course to make it unique to the City of Lincoln golf system.  They liked it, and while they interviewed five firms, it led to me getting the Highland job a few years later.

Thanks for sharing that.

That was one of those things where we played it maybe three or four times before we realized that there were no bunkers, and wonder why we hadn't really noticed it. Only at the end of the round does it occur to you. You certainly never felt like it was missing anything.

Do you recall it being bunkerless prior to the renovation? I don't really remember anything about it before that point, other than that they've flipped the nines back and forth three or four times. One of my first jobs was there, so that, along with Highlands, both were fairly significant places to me at one time.

[Reef Wilson]

I started taking golf more seriously while frequently playing Jeff's Wildhorse in Davis CA. While I have not played it since I took an interest in GCA, I know it very well and am very fond of it. Thinking about it over the last few days, I realized I think it has a great set of short par 4s, especially 16 which is the first par 4 I ever drove.

It's a rather flat piece of land but the "mounds" make it plenty interesting. Jeff, how moundy would you say this course is compared to your others? Anything else of interest about this course? Seems like you didn't do too much work out west.

Also, the hole ordering changed at least once, for the better in my opinion. The current 1st hole is a great opener IMO.

Reef

[Lester George]

I have always been aware of Jeff Brauer's talents as an architect.  After looking at the pictures of Giants Ridge in the other thread, and discussing with Jeff what was going on throughout that project, I am even more convinced that he is one of the best.  What a tough site and really good looking results.

Lester

[Tony_Chapman]

One last thing.  I also always play Thurs a.m. of the tournament.  Where is there to play near Hazeltine that I shouldn't miss, but close anough so I'll be at my desk working at 1-1:30?

Jay -- Maybe you answered this with your game at UofM, but Chaska Town Course is a Art Hills course that shared qualifying duties when Hazeltine hosted the Amateur a few years back. Very close to Hazeltine.

[Jeff Shelman]

Jay,

You don't want to play the U of M course.

Worst case scenario, we play at my club on Thursday morning. But I'm guessing you will find better options than that.

[Jay Flemma]

Hi Lester, nice to see you and Merry Christmas.

From the pictures on the thread, Giants Ridge looks phenomenal.

So the question still stands:  if we had to explain Jeff's design principles to someone completely new to the study of GCA, what would we tell him?  He's eminently natural?  He averages moving ______ amount of earth?  He tries to use the natural features he finds on the property.  His bunkering sometimes tries to replicate Mack.  What else?

Jeff, what's wrong with U of M?  Did the Raynor features get renovated away?  Jeff and Tony, would you possibly join us at either Big Fish or GR?

[Jeff Shelman]

Jay,

I could certainly join you for golf somewhere in your journey of my part of the world.

Why not the U of M? Because there are too many good courses in the Twin Cities for you to spend your one round at a course that is average. Off the top of my head I can rattle off at least a dozen courses in town that are better options than the U of M. There might even be a dozen better public options.

[Jay Flemma]

OK Jeff, but I'm still curious as to how come?  Did Raynor get renovated away?  Why is this raynor not as good as other raynor?

What are the great MSP publics.

I've been brushing up on my garrison keillor...

[Jeff Shelman]

First of all, it's not a Raynor. The school claims it was designed by Tom Vardon. There is a Raynor across the street called Midland Hills Country Club. There are two other Raynor courses in town: Somerset Country Club and Minnesota Valley, all three Raynors in town are private.

About the U of M course: It is also a course that at 6,100 yards is a wedge fest. And there are too many trees. I just, frankly, don't think it is all that exciting. And pace of play can be brutal at times.

In terms of MSP publics, I would list all of these ahead of it.
Troy Burne, Stone Ridge, Legends, Rush Creek, Wilds, Keller, Bunker Hills, Braemar, Chaska Town Course, Edinburgh USA and Refuge.

As someone who thinks golf in the Twin Cities is pretty darn strong, I can't let you play essentially a muni as your only round here. The U of M course (I'm an alum), isn't like Michigan or others where you have to have some sort of tie to the school. Nor has the school spent significant money to keep it top notch. While the folks out there work hard and do the best they can with the resources, it simply is underfunded and the course has been impacted by that. I would venture to guess that the greens have all had significant shrinkage and there are certainly angles that are no longer available.

If you want to play an old-school public course, I would recommend Keller, a former PGA Championship site.

That said, I know there are people who post on here regularily that have access to better spots. And like I said, worst case, you can come out to my club and we can knock it around. It's not a top line club in town, but it has been a frequent USGA qualifying site and we're hosting the Minnesota State Amateur in July.

[Jay Carstens]

Matt Rose-
Re: Pioneer Park's bunker history

They might have had sand for a short time, maybe 10-15 years.  Jeff Brauer might know more.  Tucker's old plan for 27-holes included many bunkers but I've heard they were removed around WWII.  The third [east] nine was also abandoned around that time and the paper called it the "sportiest" of the three.  #1 played northeast, up through the current driving range.  It also had a nice, long par-5 playing into the wind, and a cool, uphill par-3, that I've seen pictures of.  It could be a fun project to restore someday.  Much of it's still there. 

[Lou_Duran]

I am hardly an expert on Brauer golf, but I have played a few of his DFW original courses (Squaw Valley-Links, Tangleridge, Cowboys, Ridgeview Ranch, Cross Timbers) and one in CO (Cantleberry?), as well as some that he has renovated (Great Southwest, Brookhaven-Masters, Indian Creek-Creek).  I know Jeff and have played with him a couple of times, so I am probably a bit bias in his favor.

What I like most about his courses is their considerable scale, their beauty even when the site is not inherently so, their playability and variety, and the fact that I always look forward to playing them again.  His courses fit my eye, though I think that they might look harder than they really are.  Invariably, they are walkable (though the folks at Cowboys thought I was nuts- it was not bad at all) and can be played fairly quickly.  Even playing in strong winds, I can't remember ever feeling beat-up by a Brauer course, a clear indication that he understands the local elements and designs to make proper use of them.

His earlier courses are mounded to a greater degree than I like (e.g. Squaw Valley), but some of the sites were relatively flat (needing some definition, but compounding the effect).  His courses have a few bunkers that are more for aesthetics and perhaps functional as aiming points as opposed to strategic or influencing shot selection.

For my taste, his green contouring on the aforementioned renovations is over the top, but I was not his client.  With a couple of exceptions at Cowboys, I do not believe that this is the case in the original work that I sampled.

With the exception of Cowboys, all the courses I noted are very affordable and full of fun.  I often recommend them to acquaintances visiting the area who may not have access to the high-end privates.

Undoubtedly, Jeff is a very talented architect.  If you have seen him drive the ball you'd understand why he likes breadth.  I haven't yet figured out his rather complicated green design relative to his prowess with the short stick. 

[Jay Flemma]

Nice analysis, Lou

Judging only from the pix of GR, would you say that over time Jeff reduced use of mounds and increased use of undulations in the fwy?

Any more people want to chime in about Cowboys?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jay,

I can tell you I mound less and roll fw more.  As Lou mentions, Squaw Valley was really moundy. At the time, I figured if it wasn't sand the average player could play it. Then, paired there one day with some average golfers, I saw them shanking and otherwise screwing up the shots from the rough mounds, which started to change my thinking.  Similarly, I had some courses where irrigation water quality was terrible, and knew that I needed more than the 2% minimum slopes, because other flattish courses had poor turf.  I liked the look of bumping fw contours to 4-7%.

On a good day, I am a straight driver.  I can never putt.  No one can say I design for my own game.....

[Wyatt Halliday]

Cowboys GC pics From the website

[Jay Flemma]

Good goin' with the pix Wyatt.  Jeff, might we see some greens that slope front to back or side to side?

[Andy Troeger]

Only one of Jeff's courses I've seen is Links at Sierra Blanca in Ruidoso, NM. I hope to do the MN tour one of these days, and I've also had the pleasure of meeting Jeff in Dallas.

The front and back nines at Sierra Blanca are very different. The front is wedged into a pretty small area, a long and narrow strip. I would think that trying to get nine holes into this area was quite a challenge, and separating them significantly was also difficult. Oh, and it the front nine appears to have been absolutely flat to begin with--I'm not sure if I made this up or if its true but it might have previously been an airport runway. Yes--that flat.

Well its not flat now--although the fairways don't have much contour. Jeff put in some really large mounds to separate the holes. I found it difficult to not end up on a fairway, the mounds were steep enough that the ball tended to roll down to one fairway or another. Its a decent enough nine holes, about as good as one could expect from the property.

The back on the other hand had some elevation change and room to work with. Had it not been a "returning nines" course, it might have been possible to put more holes on that side of the property, but that's another point entirely. The back is quite a bit better than the front, and much lighter on the mounding. Its definitely the more memorable nine to play at Sierra Blanca.

[Matthew Rose]

Matt Rose-
Re: Pioneer Park's bunker history

They might have had sand for a short time, maybe 10-15 years.  Jeff Brauer might know more.  Tucker's old plan for 27-holes included many bunkers but I've heard they were removed around WWII.  The third [east] nine was also abandoned around that time and the paper called it the "sportiest" of the three.  #1 played northeast, up through the current driving range.  It also had a nice, long par-5 playing into the wind, and a cool, uphill par-3, that I've seen pictures of.  It could be a fun project to restore someday.  Much of it's still there. 

Wow, thanks for that. A third nine.... I had no idea. It's bizarre because whenever I was on that range I used to think that they could build some more holes over on that sidel; there's obviously loads of room for it.

[Bill Kubly]

As long as your talking about Jeff's golf prowess as well as his design work I will share a story about golfing with Jeff in 1983 (wow, that's 25 years ago).  We were building a 9 hole course for Jeff when he worked for Ken Killian called Lake Arrowhead in Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin ($325,000 for 9 holes).  They had built the other 9 holes prior to this and that is the course we played.  We decided to play 9 holes when Jeff was visiting and he used my wife's golf clubs.  He was on hole #1 in regulation and proceeded to 5 putt for a 7 (double level green where his second putt came back to him).  He was even par for the rest of the nine for a smooth 39.  Not bad for starting with a triple bogey and using my wife's whippy clubs......

Those of you that really know Jeff know that as well as being a very talented architect, he is probably the funniest of all the architects with his subtle sense of humor and witt.......He can tell stories forever.  Congratulations to Jeff for being awarded a new casino project in Kansas with Notah Begay.....I

[Tom Naccarato]

Yes, congrats to Jeff on the awarding of that project. I was fortunate to see a plan of the routing and what he has in store for the place, and it looks like it will be really walkable and enjoyable. Golf only.

A good thing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I recall that there were 27 holes, and some bunkers, but only know they were removed well before I got there.

Bill,

Oh, that brings back the memories! I also recall using those whippy shafts to overshoot the par 5 second - my shot with her 5 wood hit the tree tops behind the green and I chipped back for par.  And I was playing in construction boots!  BTW, you are the first one to call my humor "subtle.' Most call me a "groan man."

[Jay Flemma]

Matt,

I recall that there were 27 holes, and some bunkers, but only know they were removed well before I got there.

Bill,

Oh, that brings back the memories! I also recall using those whippy shafts to overshoot the par 5 second - my shot with her 5 wood hit the tree tops behind the green and I chipped back for par.  And I was playing in construction boots!  BTW, you are the first one to call my humor "subtle.' Most call me a "groan man."

Groan is right:)  Merry Christmas guys.

[Matthew Rose]

Lake Arrowhead was where I went to see my brother play in the Wisconsin State golf tournament. The hole that I always remember there is the par-five around the lake (#9?) where he was so pumped up he hit a 1-iron 30 yards over the green and made 6.... basically ruined his round, unfortunately. Then they moved it to Fox Hills the next year... what a horrible mistake.

So between Pioneers, Highlands, Woodland Hills and Lake Arrowhead, I've crossed paths with Jeff's handiwork more times than I ever thought I knew.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Good morning and Merry Christmas!  Yes, the 9th has a small pond and beach bunker.  The last time I saw it, was in a picture for a paint ad, where they had a photo of the clubhouse, which apparently used that brand paint in a rehab.....I have fond memories of that lake that are entirely non golf related!  I also have fond memories of going to the northwoods and building a course with one shaper and a bunch of high school kids (front nine) 

As is typical, the Owner realized that whatever small savings could be achieved by doing it yourself weren't worth it the second time, and we brought in LUI to build the back nine, as described by Bill Kubly.  Back in those days, he still traveled to each job and found an apartment for his family!  The whole course was built for about $750K in 1980 and 1983.  I recall some other KN courses being built for $1-1.8M at that time, so it was a true value course for the owner, and probably better for it. 

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