[Mark_Rowlinson]

What are the criteria for routing a course on which strong winds from a prevailing direction are rarely absent? How does the routing then stand up when the wind is in another quarter or there is no wind?

[paul cowley]

Maximize width and minimize exposed green locations. Utilize short forced carries only. Provide a safe route around internal hazards or rely on broken or random hazard strategies in a wide setting.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Paul,
Why would you minimize green exposure?
I'd try to make the greens accessible from multiple directions while in the open.

[Matt_Cohn]

i'd be interested to hear comments on this, but one can balance the types of holes playing in each direction. also, avoid extremely long or short holes. utilize mid length holes playing in opposite directions. if you have two 400 yard holes side by side in opposite directions, one will play 460 and the other will play 340.

[Ian_L]

avoid extremely long or short holes.

I'd disagree with this one.  Think #7 at Pebble Beach, a simple hole with no wind, but a real toughie with a strong breeze in any direction. 

Short par-4's and 5's with strong tailwinds become reachable for players who normally don't get eagle putts (#8 at Bandon Trails is a good example). 

Long par-3's and 4's with strong headwinds suddenly give players thoughts about laying up and trying to get up and down for par.  I think all of these add tremendous interest to a hole.

[George_Bahto]

This is an interesting thread to me because when we made the first trip to the Old Macdonald project Tom had us play Pac Dunes (which is mostly north and south) in about a 3-4 club wind so we would better understand the routing problems and obviously better understand the strategies we would be discussing.

You will see that many holes at Old Macdonald play in various points of the compass - both longer and short holes - so to me there was a lot to factor in.

Example: at present we have the Short hole playing in a side wind and before that the 4th hole is projected at a 520 yd, downwind par-4 (during the season.

Medium length 4's into the wind will be tough.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The links course of which I am a member (Conwy) addresses the wind from every angle. But there are lots of out-and-back courses which must be laid out with or against the prevailing wind. What happens on those few days when the wind is in a contrary direction. Or what do we make of persistent side winds?

[Matt_Cohn]

avoid extremely long or short holes.

I'd disagree with this one.  Think #7 at Pebble Beach, a simple hole with no wind, but a real toughie with a strong breeze in any direction. 

Short par-4's and 5's with strong tailwinds become reachable for players who normally don't get eagle putts (#8 at Bandon Trails is a good example). 

Long par-3's and 4's with strong headwinds suddenly give players thoughts about laying up and trying to get up and down for par.  I think all of these add tremendous interest to a hole.

i guess my comments were pointed towards courses with winds from different directions. i should have clarified. #7 at PB might be kind of silly downwind, no?

[Sean_A]

The links course of which I am a member (Conwy) addresses the wind from every angle. But there are lots of out-and-back courses which must be laid out with or against the prevailing wind. What happens on those few days when the wind is in a contrary direction. Or what do we make of persistent side winds?

Mark

This is an excellent question.  Being a member at Burnham this past year (and playing most of my golf there) has given me an appreciation of wind accommodation like never before.  For some reason the wind patterns this past year have been very odd and Burnham has been getting a lot of northern wind.  I think the course was designed with a more southerly wind in mind.  In any case, the front nine has often played a brute, yet the back nine isn't quite downwind either.  Chuck in a routing that winds its way through dunes and has several plateau greens and one can easily see how things can get out of control with balance toward difficulty over fun being too severe.  However, a saving grace for the course comes in many ways and they must be taken advantage of to score well in harsh wind. 

1. The par 5s are all reachable in the right conditions - so it is rare when brute force is necessary.

2. Half the greens are not so much raised, this is a decent balance.

3. The course isn't overly long.  Even on holes that may not be reachable because of the wind, none of the greens are so severe that one cannot expect a decent chance to get up and down (a very important point imo).

4. There are several more open holes away from the constricting dunes - a very welcome contrast imo.  dunes are lovely and all, but many forget how constricting they can be even if playing down natural corridors.  I personally don't thinks big dunes are deal for golf.  Its nice to have some, but its better to have much of the course routed over more gentle, yet characterful land. 

The difference between Pennard and Burnham in the wind is more or less the difference I see in the quality of the courses for golf without being constricting.  Despite Burnham being what I think is a more varied course in terms of green sites, I think Pennard is a better course because it better accommodates rough and unusual weather and the land it is on is excellent.  Giving leeway for the wind has to be a very high priority for the archie designing on a potentially windy even at the risk of the course being left open to being taken on calm days.

Ciao

[mike_beene]

Almost all the holes on my home course make the prevailing and secondary winds crosswinds.In the spring a good score is tough to shoot.To me the new balls are still tough in crosswinds.Not so much into or with the wind.If I were a great ballstriker I would want to play tournaments in crosswinds.I bet the tour players who only move it one way dont do well when the winds cross most holes.

[Bill_McBride]

i'd be interested to hear comments on this, but one can balance the types of holes playing in each direction. also, avoid extremely long or short holes. utilize mid length holes playing in opposite directions. if you have two 400 yard holes side by side in opposite directions, one will play 460 and the other will play 340.

Pacific Dunes has a great example of that good routing idea, although back to back instead of side by side - #4 and #13.  Last time I was there #4 was driver 8 iron down wind, #13 was driver 3 wood.  That was in the summer wind.

[paul cowley]

Paul,
Why would you minimize green exposure?
I'd try to make the greens accessible from multiple directions while in the open.

Mike....I mean extreme potentially windswept areas that may become unfair in high winds......ridge edges, exposed high elevations and the like.

This doesn't necessarily apply to tee siting.

[paul cowley]

.....and I would not design a holes length by relying too much on prevailing winds....maybe a 10% +/-  factor at most.

[Ian_L]

i guess my comments were pointed towards courses with winds from different directions. i should have clarified. #7 at PB might be kind of silly downwind, no?

Hmm I don't think so, The green's pretty small and I can imagine it would be quite difficult to judge in a 25mph wind.  But I could be wrong.

I would still say half-par holes are ideal for strong winds from variable directions, because I love it when a hole plays very differently from day to day.  I don't think a hole is unfair just because you can't reach it in regulation on a given day, nor is a par-5 too easy because you're hitting a mid-iron to it with a strong tailwind.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Is the answer:
Elasticity
Olympic Triangle routing
Width

I would think these three enable a course to be enjoyable and challenging in, as well as solicitous of, the wind, no matter the direction.

Excellent question, Mark - very helpful for the courses to study project!

Mark

[Forrest Richardson]

Width is a good ingredient, but you have to tighten a few holes here and there. One of the biggest mistakes (my opinon) is not to use the wind as an intensifier. For example, at Olivas Links we routed No. 14 directly into the wind — and kept the par-5 long at 570+. A common notion is to compnesate — shorten holes into the wind. I say use the wind — intensify the long and short frequently.

[Ian Andrew]

Mark,

I'm with you on the triangles or loops. The best routings continue to turn to avoid too long a stretch in one direction.

I don't care if long or short holes are with or against the wind - as long as the holes turn at regular intervals to provide some relief on the nastiest of days.

And I agree with the other posts - width is key on a wind blown site. Portrush may be an exceptional piece of architecture but the lack of width - combined with a nasty day - becomes too much to manage.

[Sean_A]

Mark,

I'm with you on the triangles or loops. The best routings continue to turn to avoid too long a stretch in one direction.

I don't care if long or short holes are with or against the wind - as long as the holes turn at regular intervals to provide some relief on the nastiest of days.

And I agree with the other posts - width is key on a wind blown site. Portrush may be an exceptional piece of architecture but the lack of width - combined with a nasty day - becomes too much to manage.

Ian

What if a constant turning of the holes isn't possible?  Does this mean the traditional out and back routing can't be considered among the best or do some other aspects of the course have to be exceptional to make up for the limited routing?

Ciao

[paul cowley]

I don't know Sean....triangles work great in a conceptual routing vacuum, but most windy links courses don't have the terrain to support this ideal situation.

I guess Ballybunion could be improved by blowing out a few triangles into the flat lands to the east..... and Pebble could have blown a few triangle loops up the hill.

St Andrews missed a big opportunity to do this as well.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I believe that a routing that is more dominant with/against the wind is easier to play than one that is totally crosswind. Of course, triangles are great when they fit.  That doesn't really happen on many sites, especially when trying to fit housing in.

I can recall one of my designs where the topo suggested an east west course (for the most part) but the wind was north south, resulting in some interesting design decisions, some of which my client made for me......

Feature design is affected - things like greens and fw getting wider on crosswind holes, deeper on downwind holes, etc., frontal openings on downwind holes.  Also, I have learned that turf type affects design on really windy sites.  For example, bent greens in Texas facing south need to be flatter, or the humps dry out.  If facing north, they can stand the winter winds.  However, when some of my courses converted to Bermuda greens later, the north facing greens burned out every winter where there was a high spot.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I don't know Sean....triangles work great in a conceptual routing vacuum, but most windy links courses don't have the terrain to support this ideal situation.

I guess Ballybunion could be improved by blowing out a few triangles into the flat lands to the east..... and Pebble could have blown a few triangle loops up the hill.

St Andrews missed a big opportunity to do this as well.

Okay, Mr Smarty Pants -- or would that be Señor Pantalones del Sabelotodo?

I digress.

By "Olympic Triangle" I don't mean it literally, just that the routing expose the golfer to certain winds, and not each in one block but ideally in some sort of rotation (heh) or alternating sequence:
Upwind
Downwind
Port quarter
Starboard quarter
Port beam
Starboard beam

The ratio of these in a sailing regatta are designed to correspond to the challenge of each wind.  I have no idea if that's the ideal combo for golf.  As a recipe the Triangle bits go something like this:
Upwind -- 3 parts
Downwind -- 1 part
Port quarter -- 1 part
Starboard quarter -- 1 part
Port beam -- pinch
Starboard beam -- pinch

So...

TOC via the Loop does offer more than out and back, although it doesn't get the "rotation" of wind directions implied by the Triangle.  But I think Ballybunion Old does, although I haven't played it:


From Doak's writeup: "one of the most brilliant routing plans ever conceived," Ballybunion "cuts back and forth between the coastline and the dunes so that not all the most spectacular holes on the course are all encountered in a line."  (A modern architect would save the coast for a big finish.)

BTW the big knock against Royal Dublin is its out and back routing, and the long run of holes on the back nine playing into the wind.


Happy holidays!
Mark

[Anthony Gray]

  I would suggest to route the course the way you would deem best period. But place extra tee boxes on holes where the wind can have dramatic effects. Wind is always a plus because it adds variability so I would not view it as a negative for routing. I think the addition of tee boxes that can shorten or lengthen the hole when needed because of the wind would ease playability concerns.

  Anthony

[Mark Bourgeois]

Upon reflection, would a "reverse" Olympic Triangle be better; i.e., one that provided 3 parts downwind to 1 part upwind etc.?

Are downwind holes greater tests of skill, at least for approach shots?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mark, I think the great glory of Ballybunion Old is that you play between, along, over, through, up and onto the dunes in every conceivable manner. Its brilliance is likely that when it was first laid out its architect knew what the limits were. From what is said, RTJ, went that little bit furthjer when he designed the Cashen Course and that it is too difficult for the likes of me.

Of course, you don't have to play the course from the same set of tees every time. After all, they moved a number of tees forward significantly at Royal Birkdale at this year's Open. It gives me heart when I see that the greenkeeper has set out the tees differently from normal if the wind is in an uncustomary direction. At Comwy a (rare) wine from the east or north-east completely muddles club selection for most of us.

[paul cowley]

Mark....I was wrong about Ballybunion, despite having played it over 30 times. You are right and I am sorry.

Apologetically....paul.

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