Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks for the pictures Andrew. I can't see how this course should be a 2, either. There is only one reason I think it would fall short or that unique gem we have here in Oregon, Astoria, and that is the lack of a full 18 holes. As a matter of fact, it would seem that Astoria has a far higher percentage of fairly plain holes.

For anyone not familiar with Astoria, it can be seen here:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26002.0.html

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

You are welcome to write your own book and rate the course much more highly.

Don't misunderstand me ... I totally understand that the course can be a lot of fun to play.  Maybe it should have been a 4, on that basis.  Any more than that, and I'd be getting hate mail for sending people there.  Hell, Pennard is way better than Shiskine ... I gave Pennard a 6, and nobody agrees.  It's an 8 for some people and a 0 for others.

[Garland Bayley]

Well Tom, I have a streak of Joshua Crane in me, so when that book comes out it will be based on satellite imagery and algorithmic or expert system analysis and rating of the courses.

 

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

If you can come up with an algorithm that makes Shiskine a great course, I'd love to see that.

[Garland Bayley]

That might be quite easy. It would be the "memorable_holes_percentage" algorithm.

 

EDIT: Let's see, memorable holes at Astoria - 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, 10, 14, 15, 16 - 50%
That beats Tetherow by a significant bit.

[Sean_A]

Garland

One thing we have to remember, and Tom has been very consistent with this, The Doak Scale rates courses on how much Tom would recommend them to the general public in terms of how much travel the courses deserve - for the higher rated courses - 5 and above.  We can always quibble about that score and this score, but Tom is quite right not to include Shiskine as a travel destination (5 or higher) because many of the general public would be terribly disappointed upon playing the course.  Someone mentioned earlier that The Doak Scale can't handle quirk and that is probably true.  There is no way his scale can adequately sum up the merits of Shiskine, because "a mediocre golf course... Play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer" falls well short of the mark.  But in fairness, there isn't a rating system out there which can handle the quirky GB&I courses.  Perhaps Tom could have had a category for Funky Favourites which are exempt from The Scale.

Ciao

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Doak,

Ah, the vagaries of trying to appeal to a mass audience!   

I don't sense that the original Confidential Guide was meant to appeal to the average golfer.   Instead, I think it was meant to appeal to those 2% of nutcases, most of whom can be found here, and who strangely and intuitively fall in love with courses like Shiskine and Painswick, and never saw a giant hillock that they wouldn't love to hit the ball over and find a blind green somewhere falling away on a cascading hill over the other side.     

[Garland Bayley]

So Sean,

Do you have an explanation of the Tralee ratiing, 0-5?

I really have no problem with Tom's rating of 2. It serves a certain audience. However, I think this is a course that deserves to be brought to the attention of this audience.

[Sean_A]

So Sean,

Do you have an explanation of the Tralee ratiing, 0-5?

I really have no problem with Tom's rating of 2. It serves a certain audience. However, I think this is a course that deserves to be brought to the attention of this audience.

Garland

I don't know what 0-5 means so I can't explain it.  I do know there is no way I would give Tralee anything more than 6 if I were to reco it for others.  For my personal taste I would be more inclined to say I wouldn't reco the course at all.  Tralee misses the mark on the Rihcelin Guida, but then, so does Shiskine.  In truth, there isn't that much there that is worth much extra effort to see unless one is heading to Arran or Machrihanish.  Then I would say be sure to stop by as its on the way during a pleasant journey and it won't cost the earth.  I will say this though, the club deserves kudos for how they run the place and understanding that 18 holes isn't the be all and end all.  When one considers these aspects as well as the course itself, yes, Shiskine does deserve the attention of a wider audience, but I was of the impression that folks on this site already know about Shiskine. 


Ciao 

 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Considering the size of the print run, I would be amazed if the book was to cater to a mass audience.

Ulrich

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Sean,

I guess I should have searched it here besides looking it up in The Confidential Guide. I had never noticed it here. There is enough going on here that I get to visit briefly maybe 1/10 of the threads. With that wonderful new search engine I was even able to see that Slagbert has been there.

I didn't go through all the search threads yet. Have you posted a thread about it? I find your threads pretty much required reading.

Interestingly, the second match the search engine returned was from John Morrisette in 1999.

[Eric Smith]

Found these on their Facebook...grrrrrrrrrrr

[Tom_Doak]

Those are some terrific photos of the course.

Hard to imagine they get many days as pretty as the day those were taken, based on my experiences in the west of Scotland!

[Eric Smith]

Those are some terrific photos of the course.

Hard to imagine they get many days as pretty as the day those were taken, based on my experiences in the west of Scotland!

Expect more than you can stand to look at very soon as a couple of point and click maniacs are headed there this September!

[Tom_Doak]

The much-described third green is the green that sits up on the bluff at the top-left center of the last photo.

The hole after it plays down to the beach at the far top left of the golf course ... I think that's a picture of #4 green just above the aerial.

I've been playing the villain on this thread, but it really is a cool place.  It's just hard to think that it's a course many overseas visitors would go out of their way to play -- and it is pretty out of the way, when you include the ferry trip over from Irvine.

[Garland Bayley]

I was looking at the Isle on Google Earth, and discovered there are 6 golf courses on the Isle. Wondering if any of the others are worth playing.

[Phil McDade]

The very good club website, with a bunch of pictures:

http://www.shiskinegolf.com/index.htm

The wonderful Renton Laidlaw narrates this brief video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg2W0Zl7TME



Tom -- you're correct: the 3rd green is the one left-center of the aerial. The 1st hole starts from way over by the far right-top corner of the aerial, and proceeds directly alongside the beach. The 2nd hole tee is away from the beach, and follows on a fairly straight line along next to the path (this is common property; dog walkers and hikers are pretty common), crossing two burns with a green sited just beyond the second burn. The 3rd is the Crow's Nest -- up and hope -- and then the 4th down to the green that sits in the looming shadow of the enormous rock outcropping. The 5th -- the third par 3 in a row -- runs along broken ground along the bottom left corner of the aerial. The 6th runs alongside the beach to a green nestled among some small dunes, and the 7th is the Dell, up and over, totally blind, to a green that sits nearly exactly in the middle of the photo. The routing then tacks back, with the 8th largely parallel to, but running opposite of, the 6th on an upper portion of the course, with death running along the entire left side of the hole as the golfer plays it. The long par 5 9th then turns for home, crossing the burn once before a green sited in front of the next burn. The course ends with three consecutive par 3s of varying length that traverse the remaining land, roughly parallel to the outgoing 1st (the best among them the long 11th with its hidden, punchbowl green).

[Phil McDade]

I was looking at the Isle on Google Earth, and discovered there are 6 golf courses on the Isle. Wondering if any of the others are worth playing.

Garland:

Corrie is a blast -- a wee course, as they'd say, but one of the more memorable images I had was turning the corner after the 1st hole and seeing Goat Fell -- the highest mountain on the island -- staring you in the face. Corrie is just squeezed into a tiny parcel of land in a narrow valley, and is really old-fashioned and quirky. It's not in the league of Shiskine, in part because the turf doesn't run like the wonderful linksy land of Shiskine. But pretty fun -- I played late one night, had hoped to pay, and found even the courtesy payment box locked away. But it was open and a few other youngsters were on the course as well.

Of the remaining courses, Whiting Bay might be the best of the bunch, with Lamlash also OK -- both are short, quirky, with Whiting Bay  quite hilly in spots. Brodick and Machrie are pretty pedestrian, and Lochranza I didn't play but is sort of odd -- its sits on the northern edge of the island, and is one of those 9-hole courses that uses two separate sets of tees in an attempt to create 18 "different" holes. The course looked pretty traditional, parkland-like where not much stood out save for the scenery, which is pretty impressive.

Arran's a neat place to spend a few days, as it's easy to get around, there are lots of places to stay, and there are a few courses worth playing.

http://www.golfonarran.com/

[Carl Nichols]

Those are some terrific photos of the course.

Hard to imagine they get many days as pretty as the day those were taken, based on my experiences in the west of Scotland!

Almost looks like you would want to go scuba diving or snorkeling . . . .

[Jon Wiggett]

Those are some terrific photos of the course.

Hard to imagine they get many days as pretty as the day those were taken, based on my experiences in the west of Scotland!

Almost looks like you would want to go scuba diving or snorkeling . . . .

Brrrrr......

[jeffwarne]

Garland

One thing we have to remember, and Tom has been very consistent with this, The Doak Scale rates courses on how much Tom would recommend them to the general public in terms of how much travel the courses deserve - for the higher rated courses - 5 and above.  We can always quibble about that score and this score, but Tom is quite right not to include Shiskine as a travel destination (5 or higher) because many of the general public would be terribly disappointed upon playing the course.  Someone mentioned earlier that The Doak Scale can't handle quirk and that is probably true.  There is no way his scale can adequately sum up the merits of Shiskine, because "a mediocre golf course... Play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer" falls well short of the mark.  But in fairness, there isn't a rating system out there which can handle the quirky GB&I courses.  Perhaps Tom could have had a category for Funky Favourites which are exempt from The Scale.

Ciao

I have taken 2 groups of golfers to Shiskine.
12 holes is a perfect pace paired with a ferry + 9 at Carradale or if aggressive 18 on the mainland or at Machrihanish/Dunaverty.
I think Tom and many others underestimate the general public, but the general public is really irrelevant when it comes to evaluating Shiskine.
What general public is is going to catch a ferry and play a 12 hole course on the way to a rural peninsula to play another remote course/courses?
So the question is, would a group of golfers be dedicated enough to play a remote course ,less than 18 holes, on the way to a remote, rural golf destination with more eclectic golf?

I'd say most, if not all, would love the course.
I'm not sure how anyone could look at Eric Smith's pictures and not want to book a flight right now.

But that may explain why I have one of the lowest "Doak  points per course" average of anyone on the Doak points thread   (that and I played most of my Doak scale courses long before I'd ever heard of Tom Doak)

If Shiskine's a 2, well I just don't get it..........
Of course there are many, many course in Scotland you should play first, but a magical, incredibly scenic, fun 12 hole course on the way to a magical peninsula, well that just can't be a 2, and if the wrong about the general public, that just makes it more attractive.

[Sean_A]

Jeff

"on the way" are the poignant words.  For mine, Shiskine is no where near good enough as a destination course in terms of travel costs and time.  I enjoyed my round there.  We had stunning weather and played two rounds.  Like Nefyn, Shiskine is much more about beauty than good golf.  If thats enough to float your boat fair enough.  I will stick with if on the way to Mull don't drive, ferry it and stop of at Arran.  Of course, if somebody else organizes I could be persuaded to go regardless!

Shiskine reminds me a lot of Stonehaven, but Stonehaven is better.  I am not sure Stonehaven is good enough to skip a game at a big gun, but the folks were friendly, the price was right and there are some outstanding shots and views to be had.  

All that said, I could see folks doing an Arran golf holiday.  There are plenty of courses, its relatively cheap, not hard to get to, a pleasant ferry ride and the island is lovely.  The only thing Arran lacks is compelling golf, but for some on tight budgets that is often unavoidable.      

Ciao  

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

The comparison to Stonehaven is a good one, as I've played both, and each has a sense of oddness about them (moreso Stonehaven, I'd argue, because that course to me is so disjointed -- but in a good way ). And Stonehaven is much easier to get to, obviously, as it's a short drive from Aberdeen and right off a main road. Given 10 rounds between them, I might go 6-4 in favor of Shiskine, in part because I like the quality and "bumpiness" of the turf there, as opposed to Stonehaven, which has the wide-open feel of a links, and is subject to very strong breezes, but the turf doesn't quite have the randomness of the terrain at Shiskine and isn't really links-like (esp. the back meadow portion beyond the RR tracks).

How would you compare Shiskine to Painswick? Of all the UK courses I've seen highlighted here on GCA, Painswick comes closest for my tastes to what one encounters at Shiskine.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Shiskine has always intrested me to want to go there and play it. The Arran of Golf pass looks fun too. I can see Shiskine could be a 2, though I agree it should be higher. I was asked to Doak rate Painswick recently and I gave it a 3. Most thought I had under rated it and TD said he thought it worthy of a 5. On that basis I dont see Painswick having a higher rating that Shiskine. It would be interesting if TD went there again and updated his rate, even though he gave it a 2 there is enough praise in his script to make you want to check it out. The rating is pretty strict and a 5 as we know is quite some course, but some of these very quirky affairs do cause any rating programme to go haywire! I think the * is the correct one.

On a seperate note the old 18 holes that stopped around 1915 were to the right of the 3rd.

[Sean_A]

Phil

Well, all in all, I would have to say Painswick eats Shiskine for breakfast in terms of funk.  Shiskine really isn't all that funky - take away the Eagle's Nest hole (if it isn't called that it should be) and the other blind par 3 "on the back 6" and thats about it.  Painswick is relentless with funk and oddities - I feel to its detriment.  Where Shiskine has Painswick's number is in beauty (Shiskine really is one of the most beautiful courses on the planet) and the realization the 18 holes isn't some sort of magic number.  Still, Painswick has more good holes than Shiskine and its not even close.  Doak is a bit hard with a 2 - I would probably go 4 for Shiskine in giving it the benefit of the doubt because of beauty and the creativity of 12 holes.  Painswick though is a comfortable 5 (and I think of 4 to 5 as a big leap) just as 6 to 7 is) when in good nick - probably 3 when not.

No question Stonehaven is disjointed and disorienting, but damn it if there aren't quite a few good shots out there. 

For the wee courses which are cheap as chips (say less than £20) I still side with Cleeve Cloud as the most interesting - in part because of its massive width.  There can't be many courses around which really gives us an idea of what width was like in the old days, but CC is certainly one.  Church Stretton comes second because of the way the course deals with the crazily hilly terrain so well.  Painswick and Adrian's Stranahan are about equal third, but totally different.   Adrian should really be given a ton of kudos for having the balls to build that course.  He certainly took a risk and I am not sure if its clear yet if the risk will pay off, but for all the bitching people do about too hard, too expensive and too much time - The Stranahan should be winning awards as a modern example bucking the trends.  None of the rest of the wee courses I have seen are in the class of these four keepers.   

Ciao