Mtn Time Zone -- Best Private & Best Public ...

[Matt_Ward]

I mentioned this previously -- but I'd be curious to find another time zone in the USA that has three distinct modern courses that have been in operation for 20 years or less which can match the unique aspect of the following trio ...

Rock Creek
Ballyneal
Sand Hills

And, the best part of it, is that even though the economy is stalling out -- the last compelling area for available land is in the mountain time zone so it's quite likely the possibility exists that others of this stature can be created.

One other thing -- those three courses are not alone -- there are others on the public side which allow people to sample a comparable element without having to secure a member to play.

[Kirk Gill]

Has anyone played Engh's Harmony Club up near Ft. Collins, CO ?

[Matt_Ward]

Kirk:

Yes, I played it two years ago.

Good effort on a fairly tame site -- given what Engh has worked with previously. Plenty of fun holes -- the 3rd hole is a long par-5 - nearly 650 yards in length - but Engh has created two huge mounds that bracket the entrance way to the target. You need to either lay back with your second or take the risk to get your second shot past them towards the green itself which sits back a good 50 yards from where the mounds are located.

Some will see the mounds as an intrusion -- I like what they add here.

Engh carried forward with his version of the Dell Hole withthe par-3 7th - 179 yards but the green angles diagonally and features hidden pin placements for roughly 2/3's of its entire length. Superb hole because it forces the player to decide how much to dare.

I can certainly add more -- in thinking of Harmony it would be interesting to pit the layout there against Pradera. Engh didn't have a hilly site with Harmony but it plays very well in creating various different playing angles without having to worry so much about abrupt and hard to handle terrain changes.

I would certainly recommend a visit for those who have the opportunity. Nonetheless, I would not place it among the top ten in the private column because the bar is that much higher. Certainly an honorable mention though.

[jkinney]

Matt Ward - Eagle Springs has two ecosystems, riverfront and high desert that blend together naturally. Weiskopf's routing utilizes both extremely well ,IMO. Morrish's green complexes are huge and subtley contoured. The four finishing holes are among the most challenging I've ever played. What I enjoy about it the most is the sheer privacy of the expansive ground, with the only entrance being a covered bridge over the Eagle River. To me it's a pity that Weiskopf and Morrish parted ways soon after Eagle Springs. Weiskopf is a great router, and Morrrish made marvelous green complexes in every respect. I've not yet played their master work in Flagstaff and so can't compare Eagle Springs to it.

IMO, Fazio wasn't given enough land at Marroon Creek to do his stock design work. There are holes that had to be squeezed in and so the overall effect is diminished. I prefer Eagle Springs by far.

[Matt_Ward]

jkinney:

Thanks for your detailed reply -- since you enjoy what both Weiskopf and Moorish provide -- I can recommend the following courses that clearly spell out their differences since they parted.

In the case of Weiskopf - the best examples I would suggest are Snake River in the Jackson, WY area -- I see it as the best Weiskopf courses I have ever played. A stellar piece of property with vintage holes throughout the round -- you have wooded areas where you are isolated and others where you encounter much more wider and different playing characteristics. Let me also mention Silverleaf in Scottsdale -- arguably the best Weiskopf desert course I've played.

For Jay Moorish it's hard to say anything really negative about his work at Stone Canyon in the Tucson area. The greens are well done and he clearly made the most out of that desert site.

You're right -- it's a pity these two did not stay together longer.

I would urge you to play the Norman Course at Red Sky Ranch and see how Eagle Springs stacks up. I salute the club in making sure that no intrusive elements would take away from the time playing there. 

p.s. You are spot on regarding the limitations TF had w Maroon Creek. The holes on one side of the road are one way oriented - the others on the other side of the road can be a bit crammed together. Eagle Springs has neither of those limitations.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

Among Colorado publics, I see Riverdale Dunes as well above Bear Dance and superior to Haymaker as well (take the housing away and I think I prefer Foster's Buffalo Run to his Haymaker).  I enjoy playing Bear Dance but I view it in similar terms as Kirk--good fun, great views and so-so design. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

You say Riverdale Dunes is "well above" but you don't provide any clear specifics. Bear Dance is more than just eye-candy -- the greens, at least when I was last there, were among the 2-3 best I played among public courses in the state for their conditions and requirement to approach from the proper side of the fairway.

Look at the totality of the need for first rate driving -- Riverdale Dunes looks very good but from the dimension of superior driving the ball it's not in the same league with Bear Dance.

Tim, just a quick item for you to consider -- check out the closing stretch of holes on Riverdale Dunes from both the front and back side. Of the last three on each side -- only the 7th is really noteworthy. Riverdale Dunes is still noteworthy but you need to realize that a number of more recent public courses have opened and they have risen the bar in terms of what they provide.

Buffalo Run is a fun Foster layout -- but Haymaker has the greater overall consistency. Happy to pair any holes or a straight match-play if you care to compare / contrast. One other thing -- once we start down the path of "what if" regarding the housing then we are simply throwing forward situations that cannot be considered in terms of actual reality. One needs to accept things as they are -- whether good or bad.

I have to add this -- I have not played Bear Dance in the last three years so it's entirely possible that what is happening there now has changed considerably since my last visit. The Bear Dance I played in 2005 is what I am referring to and the totality of what the course provides has few peers on the public side, in my opinion.

Thanks for sharing ...

p.s. Curious to know, do you see Riverdale Dunes as the best public course you have played in all of Colorado ?

[Peter Zarlengo]

I've been eying this thread for a while now, but haven't really gotten outside of Colorado much to comment  on the whole time zone. Just to NE and NM, and only to see the cream of the crop.

Matt-
Regarding Riverdale, I do feel like it is one of the best publics in the state and a close second best in the time zone for publics that I've played. The conditioning is great, especially compared to the sometimes other overwatered courses in the Front Range area and the wind can howl, making for some fun golf. Firm approaches, greens on the quicker side, and thinned out native that penalizes, but allows for you to find your ball (sometimes, though, easier to find and play than the overgrown turfgrass rough) all contribute. There are some really fun par 5s, especially on the 11th and 16th (which I enjoyed more than the 7th as per your finishing three hole point). But maybe that just due to walking off the 15th so disappointed with the hole there.

I think the quality of Riverdale matches or exceeds what I've seen on the public side in the front range, especially when value is considered. The entire time zone though, I'm not sure. More than 20 years and dozens of public golf courses in the area have emerged since the opening of Riverdale, but I can't think of many that are as challenging or fun to play as Riverdale. Or as many the beg a return trip.

[Andy Troeger]

One final thing -- does anyone believe any of the public courses in the time zone area would crack into an overall top ten with both groups merged together. I think one or two might be able to do it but again I'll wait to see what others say before chiming with my thoughts.

Four from my current top ten are public--Black Mesa, Paa-Ko Ridge, Lakota Canyon Ranch, and We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. The first two would be in my current top five and would be tough to bump, Lakota Canyon would likely be at the end of a top ten if I added Rock Creek, Sand Hills, etc., and Saguaro would probably get bumped.

The other six courses I'd include in an overall top ten are: Castle Pines, Forest Highlands, Ballyneal, Sanctuary, Cherry Hills, and Colorado GC (not in that order). You can probably figure out from that list why I think Colorado also has the better of the private side of things.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

Sorry for my delayed response and, unfortunately, I don't have time now for a detailed response (I commend you for your thorough posts). 

Re: Riverdale, I've never before heard of the "last 3 holes on each side" test, but I consider #7, #8 (especially with a far left pin), #9 (good, 2-shot par 5) and #17 (especially with a back right pin) to be solid holes.  #16 is a good hole too, although I wish the lay-up option were more viable--the landing area on the second shot is a bit squeezed.  Only #18 is what I would consider a weaker hole. 

I think you would be disappointed with the changes made somewhat recently (I can't tell you the exact time period) to Bear Dance.  They flattened a number of the more diabolical and interesting greens.  The changes have really hurt the course, IMO.  Bear Dance has a few holes that are too similar and a few too many forced lay-ups for my taste.  My main complaint, though, is that the course gets quite a bit easier and less interesting with repeat plays.  I wouldn't say the same thing about Riverdale. 

I do believe Riverdale is the best public course I've played in Colorado, with the caveat that I haven't played Broadmoor East (I've played the West course, which is sometimes cool and sometimes awful) or either Red Sky course.  I also will admit that I play most of my golf at Riverdale and have a strong preference for walking courses.  I have a hard time comparing the mountain, cart-ball courses to Riverdale and other front range courses--they're really apples and oranges. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I only mentioned the last three holes on each side to demonstrate the fact that Riverdale Dunes is not bulletproof or close to it. The state of Colorado public golf has risen a great deal since it entered the scene. No doubt there are still holes worthy of one's time and attention but I stand by what I said from the get-go -- Colorado public golf has been well served by a number of fun and challenging courses in the last 10-15 years.

Let us just say we agree to disagree about Riverdale Dunes. I would also mention the likes of Highland Meadows in Windsor. Vista Ridge by Jay Moorish just north of Denver is also worth a look. I do like Murphy's Creek and Buffalo Run but see both of them as a good step or two behind the others already mentioned.

In regards to Bear Dance I would need to play it again to see how well the course has fared since my original time there a few years back. The greens were among the very best I had played in all of the state's public offerings -- if they have softened the overall contours too much then a big part of the course is lost. That would be tragic.

Tim, you fail to really comprehend the sheer driving skill you need at Bear Dance. You can bunt it around Riverdale Dunes and still be in a position to score. That luxury is not present at Bear Dance with a number of the strong par-4 holes there -- holes such as #9 come quickly to mind.

Clearly, you elevate the walking dimension as a central core in your course positioning within the state. I also enjoy walking but I don't hold it as a major element that would downplay such courses.

You need to play a few of the Engh courses in the state -- I didn't see you mentioning any of them. Four Mile Ranch, Lakota Canyon, Redlands Mesa and Fossil Trace are a solid quartet and for anyone who wants a public connection they are all worth playing. Let me add that Rick Phelps has done a solid job with his work at Devil's Thumb in Delta (very walkable I might add) and the likes of Antler Creek in Falcon -- just outside of Colorado Springs (and also quite walkable).

Tim, last item -- keep this in mind, the focus of the thread was the best overall public and the best on the private side for the ENTIRE mountain time zone. I have a healthy respect for Riverdale Dunes but it would be quite fortunate to grab a top ten Colorado public spot from the ones I have played in the state.

Many thanks for the updated info / re: Bear Dance.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

You mentioned the Colorado privates but after you have the opportunity to play all of the DM courses in AZ, plus Los Caballeros and the duo at Whisper Rock I'd be happy to hear what you have to say then.

Don't know if you have played Pine Canyon which is right next door to Forrest Highlands.

[Craig Sweet]

Not to mention Sutton Bay....

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Unless I'm wrong - Agar -- the location for Sutton Bay -- is in the central time zone.

[Kalen Braley]

Craig,

It is indeed in the CST...but just barely.  If it were on the other side of the lake/bay whatever it is, then it'd be MST. 

[Craig Sweet]

Well, there ya go...Sand Hills is in and Sutton Bay is out....I once thought Chile was in the same time zone as the west coast of America...turns out it's in the Atlantic Time zone....one time zone further east than NY.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim, last item -- keep this in mind, the focus of the thread was the best overall public and the best on the private side for the ENTIRE mountain time zone. I have a healthy respect for Riverdale Dunes but it would be quite fortunate to grab a top ten Colorado public spot from the ones I have played in the state.

Matt,

I certainly don't see Riverdale as "bulletproof" (I would rate it as something like a Doak 6.5), but we part ways regarding your above statement.  Riverdale Dunes would easily make my list of top ten publics in Colorado.  If you've compiled such a list, perhaps you could share it. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

How bout you start off with listing your top ten public for the state?

If you can note the key ones you have not played it would be helpful to know.

Keep in mind, my respect for Bear Dance comes from a previous visit since whatever work they have done has now been added.

Thanks ...

p.s. You say you part ways with my last post -- I said Riverdale Dunes would be fortunate to grab a top ten position -- it's possible my depth of public courses played is just deeper than yours.

[Doug Wright]

Here are my lists. Preface: I've not played any courses in Utah, Wyoming or Nevada.  I've not played any Arizona or New Mexico private courses and only a couple publics in Montana. I've never considered Sand Hills or anything else in Nebraska to be a Mountain Time Zone course. I haven't played Redlands Mesa, Red Sky Ranch, Cougar Canyon or Highland Meadows but suspect one or more would at least get honorable mention on the public side. I'm leaving out Denver CC due to BIAS.

Privates:

Ballyneal
Castle Pines GC
Cherry Hills
Colorado GC
US Air Force Academy Eisenhower GC Blue Course

Hon Mention: Castle Pines CC, Pradera, Ravenna, Sanctuary


Publics:

Apache Stronghold
GC at Bear Dance
Black Mesa
Breckenridge GC
Broadmoor East
Four Mile Ranch
Riverdale Dunes
Talking Stick North
Vista Verde
We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)

Hon Mention:  Antler Creek, Dinosaur Mountain (Gold Canyon), Estrella Mountain, Fossil Trace, Grandote Peaks, Green Valley Ranch, Lakota Canyon, Murphy Creek, Paa-Ko Ridge, Pinon Hills, Raven at Verrado, Sunridge Canyon, Talking Stick South, UNM South, Ventana Canyon (Mountain), Walking Stick, We-Ko-Pa (Cholla) 

[Garland Bayley]

Rochelle Ranch?
Hideout?

[Bob Jenkins]

Last time I checked, Alberta, Montana and a few other states not mentioned yet were all in the Mountain Time zone. Banff and Jasper come to mind in Alberta as do Greywolf in the BC Rockies (the very eastern edge of BC is in the Mountain Time zone) and Black Hawk (Rod Whitten with the able assistance if Jeff Mingay).

[Garland Bayley]

Bob,

Alberta is a state? Montana has had at least Old Works and Rock Creek Cattle Company mentioned.

Come to think of it, I don't think the Stock Farm has been mentioned.

[Bob Jenkins]

No but it is in the Mountain Time Zone!

[Garland Bayley]

I know Bob, I was just yanking your chain.

Wasn't there a course by Rod Whitman in Alberta? Perhaps named Black Hawk? That should be mentioned.

[Bob Jenkins]

Garland,

Yes, I mentioned Black Hawk which I have not seen but is very well respected. There is another in Saskatchewan (Mountain Time) called Dakota Dunes which is fairly new  www.dakotadunes.ca  and was designed by Graham Cooke / Wayne Carlton which has had some rave reviews. Never played it, however.

Hopefully you have no snow down in Oregon, unlike the leftovers of two storms around here!