Mtn Time Zone -- Best Private & Best Public ...

[Matt_Ward]

I was asked to provide an overview of the mountain time zone regarding the best of the best within the area.

I've separated the groupings into two headings -- private and public.

I've also only listed a top ten but my mind is open to those who make suggestions that bolster the case of other recommendations.

I also have to add there are some very recent new courses I have not played and therefore are not rated by me. That doesn't mean to say they are not worthy of such consideration -- it's my hope to play a few of them in the year ahead.

So without further delay ...

BEST PRIVATE

*The following courses have opened fairly recently and were not rated by me.

Gozzer Ranch
Colorado GC
Cornerstone
Painted Valley Course at Promontory

(Listed Alphabetically)

BALLYNEAL
BLACK ROCK
DESERT FOREST
DESERT MOUNTAIN *2 courses listed for unique differentiation ... Chiricahua & Outlaw
FORREST HIGHLANDS / CANYON
GLENWILD
ROCK CREEK
SAND HILLS
SNAKE RIVER
WHISPER ROCK / LOWER

*There are few honorable mentions - likely will add others -- Castle Pines, Geronimo at Desert Mountain, I enjoyed Dismal River although future changes are planned, Southern Highlands, Silverleaf, Whisper Rock / Upper, Arrow Creek / Challenger, Pradera, Chapparal Pines, The Rim.

BEST PUBLIC

*Have not played some of the more recent openings -- notably Sand Hollow in Hurricane, UT.
Also Butterfield Trail and Coyote Springs the first of the Nicklaus layouts 50 miles north of Las Vegas. Also a few of the newest layouts in the southern portion of NM - ditto Canyon River in Missoula, MT.

BLACK MESA
BULLY PULPIT
FOUR MILE RANCH
GC AT RED ROCK
PINON HILLS
RED SKY RANCH / NORMAN *Course is available every other day and is counted as public
THANKSGIVING POINT
VISTA VERDE
WE-KO-PA / SAGUARO
WOLF CREEK

*Just missing out / Bear Dance in Larkspur, CO and UNM / Championship in Albuquerque as well as Apache Stronghold (included if turf quality improves)

Honorable mention: Bayside, Devils Tower, Old Works, Lakota Canyon Ranch, Paa-Ko Ridge, Haymaker, Antler Creek, Highland Meadows, Raven at Verrado, Genoa Ranch, Sierra Nevada, Raven at Three Peaks.

There may be others worth including as well.

Let the discussions begin ...

p.s. One last note -- if people do have candidates worth including please be sure to tell me what course(s) I've listed are deficient and be prepared to wage a healthy debate.

My mind is open but ONLY serious case needs to be presented ...

[Bart Bradley]

Matt:

I would put Paa-Ko Ridge in, and take Pinion Hills out....

I enjoy Pinion Hills but have long thought it was overrated because of the cheap price...The 4 tiered greens are just too over the top for me.  The property is better at Paa-Ko as well.

Bart

[Kirk Gill]

I don't get around as much as you do, Matt, so I'm not going to opine on which courses need to be removed from the list. But to make a healthier, more robust list you might consider adding Denver Country Club and Cherry Hills in the private area.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

Interesting thread with a few corrections.  Gozzer Ranch and Wolf Creek are in the Pacific Time Zone...so techincally they can't be included, even though they aren't far away from MST.

As for other honorable mentions or courses otherwise to consider.

Private:
Sanctuary - A solid golf course at least worth a mention in Honorable mentions.

Public:
Relands Mesa - This needs to be on the list somewhere.
South Mountain in Draper -Also needs to be included.  I think its every bit as good as Thanksgiving Point if not better.
Circling Raven - A really good course to possibly consider.
Murphy Creek - Its got some housing on the back 9 but some damn good golf holes.  Would benefit by switching 9's IMO.

[Jed Peters]

Cherry Hills and Castle Pines?

[Mike Benham]

Standard or Daylight Savings?

If it is the later, do you have to eliminate the Arizona courses?

[John Moore II]

Kalen--I might have to disagree with South Mountain. I thought Thanksgiving Point was a few steps above SM. But this is just one play each. With additional plays, I might come to a different conclusion. South Mountain had the great views of the valley, but as a golf course, I thought TP was better.

[Jed Peters]

Oh yeah, and nevada is in the pacific times zone.

And, I can see 2 courses in your post out my living room as I type this.......that is, until this storm rolls in.

Where am I?

[Jon Nolan]

Kalen--I might have to disagree with South Mountain. I thought Thanksgiving Point was a few steps above SM. But this is just one play each. With additional plays, I might come to a different conclusion. South Mountain had the great views of the valley, but as a golf course, I thought TP was better.

I'd take Valley View over South Mountain.  There are definitely a few weak holes which hurts and this year there was an awful lot of water on the course but I still prefer it to South Mountain.  It's a perennial Thrifty Fifty course to boot (if you're into rankings  )

I'm not sure if The Ledges gets love around here but I like it a lot.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Forgive me on the Pac Time Zone -- errors can happen. I'm such a fan of Wolf Creek I figured it might fit there. That error will be corrected. If I had to subsitute another course I might go with either Bear Dance or UNM / Championship.

Unless people feel strongly -- I'd leave AZ in the mix. If that should change there's more than a few other courses I can add / delete as needed.

Bart B:

Good point / re: Pinon Hills and the sweeping nature of the greens. Here's the flip side / re: Paa-Ko Ridge. The par-3's are fairly one dimensional -- save for the compelling nature of the 16th. You also have super-imposed man's hands with the three-deck green at the 4th. Let's not forget the overly played hands with regards to a few of the bunkers. In sum -- Paa-Ko's original 18 which does have its moment -- is more about a super-imposed forced nature upon the actual site itself. I see Pinon Hills as being more in tune with that. What's interesting to point out is that the same architect -- Ken Dye -- was involved with both.

Kirk G:

Have not played Denver CC - so I plead ignorance on that front. I have not played Cherry Hills since all the work was done there but I wasn't really impressed with the layout I played several years ago -- still Tom Doak's comments in CG just ring true for me about Cherry Hills.

Jon N:

I have played The Ledges in the St. George area and agree it has its moments -- but Jon, just realize this -- how many MORE moments does Thanksgiving Point have when compared together. South Mountain in Draper is also fun to play but the excessive nature of the hills makes a few of the holes a bit less so in my mind. That's not to say either course you mentioned is not worth a play when in the vicinity -- but I would not opt for either sniffing an honorable mention.

Jon, be sure to read John Moore's comments -- the totality is what separates TP from SM. No doubt the views, as John correctly surmised, are present but from the standpoint of consistently providing for quality holes the layout in Lehi wins the score on that front.

Kalen:

I never rated Gozzer Ranch so it's not a point for discussion and I'm happy you referenced its location.

Let me address your candidates ... Engh did a far better design job with Pradera. Sanctuary is more severe and really served as a springboard for Engh to get noticed nationally. I don't see the overall greatness because of the severe nature of the terrain and the utter distortion there is with shot values. You also have plenty of holes thrown into the picture which serve as nothing more than filler to other holes. Look at Pradera and Sanctuary and it's clear to me the course in Parker holds the more consistent cards from a design for day-to-day play.

When you mention Redlands Mesa consider the portfolio of Jim Engh. His work at Fossil Trace is likely a better choice than the layout in Grand Junction. Clearly, Lakota Canyon Ranch is a good bit better.

Circling Raven I considered but if anything it might get a footnote of attention.

I like Murphy Creek and clearly it's a good challenge. But where is the unique design elements. Do you see it being better than a Bear Dance in Larkspur? Or even Highland Meadows in Windsor?

Jed P:

Glad to see the standard referenced courses such as Cherry Hills and Castle Pines being mentioned. Can you tell me what courses you would drop from the ones I mentioned ? Thanks ...

[Kalen Braley]

JKM,

Thats all fine and good..I chalk it up to personal preferences.  I have played at least twice as many rounds at South Mountain than TP, so I guess I've voted in that sense.

Jon,

We need to get you out to Thanksgiving Point once all this snow melts.  Valley View is an interesting comparison to SM because its also on a somewhat severe piece of property, even though not nearly as much as South Mountain.

No doubt VV has some wicked cool greens that are diablolical and tough to figure out but I guess all the man-made ponds, waterfalls, and water features otherwise really turned me off.  Plus I do recall a couple of ho-hum holes. But I do think I need to get back for a 2nd opinion.

It may rain next week and melt this crap..who knows.   

[Andy Troeger]

I'll throw my lists out there as well...I'm missing a fair amount of eligible courses but have played enough to make a reasonable list. All lists are alpha order...

I don't really care about time zone--I'm including the "Mountain States" that I've seen--AZ, NM, UT, CO, NV. Ballyneal really shouldn't be in a mountain listing but since its in Colorado I'll include it.

PRIVATE
Top 4
Ballyneal
Castle Pines
Forest Highlands Canyon
Sanctuary

Next 6
Cherry Hills
Colorado GC
Estancia Club
Promontory Dye Canyon
The Rim
Roaring Fork

PUBLIC
Top 5
Black Mesa
Cougar Canyon
Lakota Canyon
Paa-Ko Ridge
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro

Next 5
Four Mile Ranch
Pinon Hills
Red Sky Norman
Redlands Mesa
Vista Verde

In terms of Matt's list the one course on the public side that absolutely should be included is Paa-Ko Ridge. Matt and I have agreed to disagree on that one in the past, so I'd rather someone else provide their thoughts as to WHY they'd include it, or not. I probably overrate Lakota because of the scenery, etc. The greens are repetitive and the back nine has some weak holes, but I'd still rather play there than the courses lower on my list, so it stays in the top group.

I did the private group in 4/6 because I see the first four as top 100 courses and the others as the next tier with somewhat of a gap in between. Most of the AZ private group that I've seen falls just below the courses mentioned.

EDIT: Removed Wolf Creek due to it being outside the Mountain Time Zone since that's the way others are treating the thread. Added Pinon Hills to replace it.

[Kirk Gill]

Matt, we've talked over Bear Dance before. I'll admit that I owe it a return visit before I dish, but that course just didn't do it for me. Maybe it was overblown expectations. The bear paw bunkers bugged me. I think it might get more credit than it deserves because it has that mountain feel, and the surrounding environs are more spectacular than a Murphy Creek. But I'd play MC 7-3 over BD based on past experience. I'll have to give BD another chance, though, come springtime.

Andy, you've talked some about both Cougar Canyon and Four Mile Ranch, and here you're ranking them pretty high. I'd really like more info on both! I had an opportunity to play down at FMR earlier this year around the same time you were there, but I couldn't make it. I'd love to hear more.

[Matt_Ward]

Kirk:

Fair enough / re: Bear Dance v Murphy's Creek. Try it again for a second visit but don't get hung up on the bear paw bunkers. I agree it's an overkill item although the hole itself would have been even better with less clutter.

Kirk, in regards to FMR -- head to their Website and check out the photos. FMR distinguishes itself because Engh made it a point to eschew not only bunkers that would clutter up the place but he was quite skilled in avoiding the usual mounding concepts that have come to be a bit much on a few of his previous courses to the one here in Canon City.

The course is mega fun -- relies less on muscel type holes as CC -- and the greens and chipping areas will never leave you with a bored expressions when playing there.

Andy:

I have a few advantages in terms of depth of courses played -- but I'd say this much for sure -- The Estancia is a solid choice on your part and I certainly was remiss in leaving off an honorable mention. But TF did a far better job with the sister course at Whisper Rock / Upper. Ditto the qualities of what Mickelson / Stephenson did at the Lower Course.

When you get an opportunity to play them I'm sure you can comment.

You'll have to explain to me how you see Sanctuary as a better overall course than Pradera for the reasons I previously mentioned. I assume you have played the layout in Parker.

I played the Dye Course at Promontory but Glenwild -- also in Park City -- is just a more detailed and better depth of holes than the former. I like what Dye did there but Glenwild has the overall consistency for such a position. Don't know if you played it?

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Haven't played Glenwild.

Pradera, along with Southern Highlands, could easily be added to my private listing as being even with the second group. I'm headed out the door so I'll try to do more of a comparison later.

[Jed Peters]

Jed P:

Glad to see the standard referenced courses such as Cherry Hills and Castle Pines being mentioned.

Thanks. I try.

Can you tell me what courses you would drop from the ones I mentioned ? Thanks ...

No.

As an aside, can you answer my question?

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

Without Cherry Hills, you might as well just call it "Best Modern Courses in the Mountain Time Zone".

I would rather play there today than Desert Mountain ... even if there's snow at Cherry Hills today.  But, you can list them however you want.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

I'm not sure how much I can add because I haven't seen Pradera, Fossil Trace, or Bear Dance.... but I'd certainly love to get back to Colorado to take a look. 

As for Sanctuary, I think it belongs if for a number of reasons. It has many damn good holes and was the genisis/prototype for alot of Enghs work to follow.  Throw in a spectacular setting, a ton of variety, and a unique golf setting, and it worked really well IMO.

I would also 2nd Andys thoughts on the Dye Course at Promontory.  I put it slightly ahead of the Nicklaus course and it was a blast to play, especially the back 9.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I think much of your admiration of Cherry Hills is noteworthy because of the bones the course possesses -- try not to forget your less than glowing accounts of the course / re: CG. I don't know when you were last at Desert Mountain - specifically with Chiricahua and Outlaw -- if at all. The idea that all things "old" have to be held in the highest regard is what I see as a weakness in looking at courses from the perspective of 2008 -- not 1948.

The mountain time zone has added a good deal of course quality in the last 20-25 years. The idea that Cherry Hills is the centerpoint of quality design rests on the flawed assumption that the rest of the competition has stayed in place. That has not happened. 

Unfortunately, people presume "dead guys" architecture always beats out those from the modern side of things - especially if the name is tied to the likes of Nicklaus and certain others.

I have not played Cherry Hills since the revisions were made but I will say this again on behalf of Desert Mountain -- Nicklaus and his team did a superlative job with Chiricahua -- it is playable for the masses but yields only to the top player when execution is done in a flawless manner. Outlaw is far different than what you see with the other layouts at DM (it's one of the reasons why I rated it because it flies in the face of the standard desert protocol) it encourages all the elements that a great many people here favor -- walkability, fast and firm surfaces, solid array of different holes, knockout scenery and a reliance on both accuracy, power and overall shotmaking plus sufficient width.

Kalen:

You really need to play the courses I mentioned -- they have added a good deal more to the overall qualities of Colorado golf.

Sanctuary was and remains an extremely severe site that Engh used as a launching pad for his career here in the States. It does have a few holes of note but what Engh did there was further refined and taken to the next level with the likes of Pradera. Everything you mentioned about Sanctuary -- "spectacular setting, tons of variety and a unique golf setting, were included with the likes of Pradera. Engh created Pradera as a further refinement of his design capabilities.

Sanctuary has weak holes which attack the slopes in either a dead downhill or dead uphill fashion -- check out the likes of the severe uphill par-4 8th and even the closing hole, to name just two examples.

Let me mention the Dye Course at Promontory is well done but you need to play Glenwild in order to better understand why I rate it that much better -- I see Glenwild as being one of the five best TF courses I have ever played. It's much more than a scenic place to play golf. Anyone who comes to Utah needs to add it to their golf portfolio of must play courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Jed P:

Keep in mind in doing a ratings of a top ten it helps to have people who have played more than just an isolated one or two and then say why in some detail how certain courses selected by me should be tossed aside.

I like Castle Pines but I see the layout as leftover from the first part of the Nicklaus design efforts. There are a few courses I like pre-1990 from Nicklaus but more often than not -- they are far more in the minority of things. That's why I like what Jack and his talented team did with Chiricahua and Outlaw at Desert Mountain, to name just two. I also like Jack's work at Dismal River -- although it's not perfect as some critics here have said but it still offers a wonderful array of different and exciting holes.

Castle Pines raised the bar for what has come down the pike since then. It still has plenty of solid holes -- frankly, I think the front nine often gets lost in the shuffle. It also doesn't hurt that a PGA Tournament was played there which helped build even greater visibility.

With Cherry Hills -- I have to add again -- I have not played the revised course that is now present. The previous one was a tired layout that really didn't excite me given the range of other William Flynn courses I have played previously. No less than Doak himself said as much in his written account of the course in CG -- to wit ,"very tame parkland" ... par-5 17th, "one of the worst holes I've ever seen," ... "the 14th and 18th holes, while very good golf holes, somehow aren't as striking as I thought they'be ... "If the course were in Philadelphia, it wouldn't be famous." Possibly Tom has changed his mind since that written account.

Cherry Hills benefited immensely from being the big dog on the block for quite some time. No doubt it has tradition on its side and clearly many people still favor it - possibly more so on the nostaglia front.  I tend to see the top tier quality courses of the modern era as being more special in both terms of land sites and the shotmaking requirements found with those special few new ones. What people don't often tout high enough -- is the considerable efforts made by many of the modern layouts to include all the elements that years and years ago would not have been possible.

Too many people make the predictable assumption that if something is old it's got be great -- I don't doubt the qualities of Cherry Hills and would still leave it as an honorable mention -- I might even elevate it higher with a future play but the present course would have to really demonstrate that the 2008 version is equal or greater than the rest of the competition that has come on board since then.

The bar has indeed risen ...

[Adam Clayman]

Wild Horse is missing and is way better golf than most of the public list


Bart, When did Pinon Hills get four tier greens? There was not a single one when I was last there.

Dye poured his soul into the '89 Farmington design. The Sandia course is mostly about the setting. Paa-Ko is repetitive in look and shot demands on too many holes. When played in the proper config and firmness, there are very few Dark Age courses with as much soul, variety and challenge as Pinon Hills.

[Sean Leary]

Wild Horse is missing and is way better golf than most of the public list.

Bart, When did Pinon Hills get four tier greens? There was not a single one when I was last there.

Dye poured his soul into the '89 Farmington design. The Sandia course is mostly about the setting. Paa-Ko is repetitive in look and shot demands on too many holes. When played in the proper config and firmness, there are very few Dark Age courses with as much soul, variety and challenge as Pinon Hills.

Adam,

Wild Horse is in the Central Time Zone, no?

[Adam Clayman]

Shit Sean, You just busted me as I changed my post when I realized it was in cst.  Well, If Wolf creek can qualify since it's close, so can wild horse.

[Kalen Braley]

Shit Sean, You just busted me as I changed my post when I realized it was in cst.  Well, If Wolf creek can qualify since it's close, so can wild horse.

Lol....Uh oh, next thing we know Shadow Creek and Prarie Dunes will be allowed.   

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

I see Pinon Hills as the better choice when held against Paa-Ko -- many of the reasons you gave are ones I would agree with. Now if only the real 1st hole were played as such and if the water usage were cut back even more.

However ...

I dropped Wolf Creek after being made aware of the location outside the time zone. So guess what -- Wild Horse needs to go too.

I did mention Bayside as an honorable mention. Curious to your thoughts on that and if you have a top ten public listing for the time zone overall.