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J_Olsen

Westchester is overrated
« on: June 07, 2002, 08:53:43 AM »
Why do the pros love Westchester so much? Is the average course they play on tour so bad that anything remotely traditional in design "could host a US Open"? I will refer to holes under the tournament routing: 11 is a great hole. The only par four that can truly stand with the best of the area. 12 is a converted par 5 that is a real stretch of a par 4. It is difficult but does that make it a good hole? 15 is a tricked up blind hole, though I guess they can now drive it over the tree at the corner. 18 is utterly bland as a finisher. 3 is again blind and a bit tricky. 7 is a good fun hole with an old time 3 tiered green. 8 is also tricked up with a very narrow landing area between the turn of the dogleg and the water. Finally 9 is another remarkably bland par 5. What's to love here?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2002, 09:50:23 AM »
Does anybody know anything about the Nicklaus muni in the Bronx that they were supposed to be moving the Classic to? Anbody been on site??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will W

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2002, 09:55:03 AM »
From NYC Tourism web site

MAYOR GIULIANI, PGA TOUR COMMISSIONER FINCHEM & TOURISM CHIEF NICHOLAS ANNOUNCE EFFORT TO BRING PGA TOURNAMENT TO NEW YORK CITY
 
- PGA Tournament at New Jack Nicklaus Golf Course to Benefit WTC Victim Families -
 
 
New York City (December 28, 2001) - The City of New York, the PGA Tour and NYC & Company - the convention and visitors bureau -announced jointly today that discussions are underway to bring a PGA tournament to New York City. The tournament would be played at the new Jack Nicklaus-designed municipal course slated to open in 2003 at Ferry Point Park in The Bronx.
In a recent meeting at City Hall, PGA Tour Commissioner Tim Finchem and New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani discussed bringing a premier competition to the Ferry Point course to honor the memory of victims of the September 11 tragedy. In addition, the charitable proceeds of the event would provide support to the families of NYC police, fire and rescue personnel who lost their lives in the line of duty.

"We share Mayor Giuliani's desire to establish a high-level tournament in New York City for this worthy cause," Commissioner Finchem said. "We look forward to working with the City of New York and the New York corporate community in this effort. Although we face challenges in terms of available dates and events on our schedule, with the support of the city and New York's corporate leaders we are hopeful those challenges can be overcome."

"I have no doubt that once completed, the new golf course at Ferry Point Park will offer breathtaking views and provide one of the most spectacular venues for golfing in the United States," the Mayor said. "Such a world class facility deserves a world class golf tournament. I'm thrilled that the PGA is exploring how to bring a pro tournament to the Sports Capital of the World and to do so in a way that honors victims of the World Trade Center attack."

"We are proud to be associated with the City of New York, and to have the opportunity to bring what we hope will be a quality golf experience to the residents in and around New York. The potential of a PGA Tour event coming to Ferry Point Park adds just another exciting dimension to this project. Hopefully, my design team and I will meet the challenge of creating a golf course that will not only test the talented players who make up the PGA Tour, but will also be an enjoyable and memorable experience for the players who will visit the course on a daily and year-round basis," said Jack Nicklaus.

"Hosting a PGA tournament in New York City is a terrific boost to our efforts to market New York City as one of the top sporting destinations in the world," said Cristyne L. Nicholas, President & CEO of NYC & Company - the city's official tourism marketing organization. "As frequent home to the World Series, potential host of the 2007 Super Bowl and a finalist in the bid for the 2012 Olympics, New York City is the ideal location for a PGA Tour event."

The Jack Nicklaus Signature golf course currently under construction at Ferry Point Park is the result of a partnership between Flag Luxury Properties, LLC, New York-based golf course developer Gagne Development Corporation and Jack Nicklaus' Golden Bear International. The 220-acre project will include a driving range, 35,000 square feet of banquet/conference space and freestanding restaurants. Located on nearly one mile of waterfront in what has been called the best new golf course location in the United States, Ferry Point Park is within twenty minutes from midtown Manhattan and is convenient to western Long Island, Westchester County, southern Connecticut and northern New Jersey. The golf facilities will be open to the public and operate on a daily fee basis. The driving range, banquet/conference center and restaurants are expected to open by the end of 2003 and the golf course in the last spring or early summer of 2004.
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2002, 09:56:53 AM »
Thanks for the info!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JamieS

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2002, 10:43:57 AM »
I must disagree...I've had the chance to play Westchester, it is anything but overrated.  There are a great mix of holes with some wonderful greensites.  What is wrong with a few blind shots?  Blind shots make even PGA players think a little.
The 12th hole is not a stretch a a par 4, the tee shot plays downhill and under normal conditions the players usually are hitting a mid iron to the green.  The 13th is a great mid/short par 4, and 18 offers a chance at a great finish, with either an eagle or birdie. 15 is tricked up? How so?  If you can't bomb it over/around the tree you have to play to the corner and hit a good mid/long iron, I don't see what is tricky about that. Just because some par 4's aren't Driver-Wedge doesn't make them tricky This course has a classic feel to it that the pro's don't see often enough on tour, it also has a great deal of character and elevation change.  There are many more good design features on Westchester than you'll find at the majority of tour venures.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2002, 10:49:31 AM »
J Olson,

How many times have you played the golf course ?

How is # 8 and # 15 tricked up ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

J_Olsen

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2002, 11:03:02 AM »
I have played the course about a dozen times. What relevance does that have, Pat? 8, to me, is tricked up because I don't like a dogleg with water long off the tee. Having to fit the ball past the turn, but short of water is a little mickey mouse. 15 is blind from the landing area it was designed for. A dogleg with a blind second? Not good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2002, 11:13:18 AM »
J Olsen,

The relevance would be whether you had just seen the course on TV or had actually played it.  And the relevance of how many times you played it addresses the question of blindness.  Once you've played it, the effect of the blindness diminishes, and since you've played it about a dozen times, you should know it like the back of your hand.

I don't see how you regard # 8 as a tricked up hole.  
There is plenty of room in the landing area.

Would # 3 at NGLA be regarded as a bad hole by you due to it's blindness ?  How about # 2 at NGLA ?
# 15 is a driver/3wood - short iron/wedge.
Some players tried to drive the green.

Would I thin out the trees, yes, but I don't think the course is overrated, and if the Pros comment favorably upon the course, why should that be a knock on it ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2002, 11:19:02 AM »
2 and 3 at NGLA are such good holes strategically, that their blindness only accentuates their quality. I must agree with Olsen on 8 and 15. Westchester does have some great green complexes, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2002, 11:34:31 AM »
Jeff Lewis,

Using J Olsen's words, tricked up just begins to describe
# 2 and # 3 at NGLA

# 3 is infinitely more difficult and trickier than either # 8 or # 15 at Westchester.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2002, 11:46:36 AM »
J Olsen
P Mucci

It has been a long time since I played Westchester and have only played it twice both times back in the late 70's but I do not have any recall of it being overrated.  Thought it was a pretty good track.
Cheers
Dave Miller
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2002, 01:49:28 PM »
I think the question is compared to what. First let's look at the last 4 PGA tournament sites:

Tournament Players Club at Four Seasons-Las Colinas
Colonial Country Club, Fort Worth, TX
Muirfield Village Golf Club, Dublin, OH
Tournament Players Club at Avenel, Potomac, MD

I have not played Colonial or Muirfield, but I think WCCC stands up to them, and IMHO stands out from the TPC courses.

Now compare to the last four US Open courses:

Southern Hills
Pebble
Pinehurst
Olympic

Tough competition for any course. Finally let's compare it to some of its neighbors:

Winged Foot
Fenway
Quaker Ridge
Sleepy Hollow

Once again, tough competition. Now move Westchester over to Fairfield County, CT and the course and club stands out. Personally, I would love to be a member. You get to drop the kids at the beach club and play from your choice of 2 great courses. The only thing better for a family guy in the East Coast is Maidstone.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2002, 02:55:47 PM »
What I enjoy about Westchester is the change of pace holes the course presents. Yes, you have the short and easy ones -- the 6th and 7th come to mind. However, I enjoy watching the pros decide what to do on the tee at the 7th. It's a marvelous short par-4 and arguably a very good one in line with the best of its type when compared to others in Westchester County.

The 8th is a solid hole -- nothing unique but I don't see what's wrong with it.

The 9th is uphill and requires two well played shots to reach the green. The 10th is a dynamite decision hole because long hitter can reach the green with a laser like tee shot. I can remember the sterling playoff in 1988 when Ballesteros, Norman, Green and Frost had at it on that hole before Seve claimed the title.

#11 is probably the finest hole in the layout.

#12 is a tough hole period because the landing area may have players playing from a severe downslope with their second shot to an elevated target. One time I saw Nick Faldo miss his second shot well right and it took him three more shots to finally get to the putting surface.

The 15th is a bit awkward, but it dares you to make the bold play. I've seen Tiger and Dennis Paulson take drives right of the tree and hit the downslope to where they had about 80-90 yards into the hole. Is ther risk? Sure. Miss too far right and it becomes a chip out for your second. Also, the green is protected by a ridge that runs in the back and any approach shot that lacks juice will not get all the way back.

Westchester is a different course than the pro forma stuff you usually see on tour. Let's also not forget the wonderful rolling terrain that TV has a tendency to minimize.

Go through the roster of champions at Westchester and it matches up as well as most any top tour event outside the majors. Palmer, Nicklaus, Ballesteros(2), Miller, Irwin, Els(2), Singh(2), etc, etc.

If good courses provide quality champions then Westchester has done itself proud. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2002, 05:07:31 AM »
Westechester is NOT overrated, IMHO.

I went there expecting to be disappointed.  Instead a found
a wonderful course that I actually think is BETTER than it
has been given credit for!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

mark c

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2002, 07:05:39 PM »
IMHO,Round  Hill  is the finest  Walter Travis (solo) design
in the met area.It has artful green contouring and a splendid
hilly finishing strech enlivened by two roller coaster par fives
(15+16).I personally feel Whippoorwill (Banks) and Century
(Alison/Hanse)  belong ahead of WCC on Golfweeks top 100
list. Nevertheless,WCC is solid Travis routing over some
attractive hilly property.So in the context  of the typical tour
course  WCC is not overrated.In fact the strech of holes at WCC
from 3-8 probably has more character in it than the entire
layouts at 30-40%  of other PGA tour sites.
Thanks, Mark Chalfant

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2002, 08:25:03 PM »
Played it two weeks ago!  Solid 7 on the Doak scale.  Is that overrated?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2002, 09:32:33 AM »
The stats were impressive...

Second shotest course on tour, with the 8th highest scoring average.

Somewhere inbetween the lines there is a course worthy of not being tagged "overated".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WilliamWang

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2002, 10:04:25 AM »
question regarding how the "pros" play westchester.

do all the long hitters cut the corner on the 7th hole and bomb away to the small fairway area in front of the green.  i watched several players do that on sunday and their results weren't any better than those who hit iron off the tee and laid up.  definitely an interesting hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

J_Olsen

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2002, 10:08:01 AM »
First of all, it is wonderful to see that so many have played this course and enjoyed it so much. Perhaps I should reconsider my view of Westchester. But I certainly would be remiss if I didn't point out that there is a heck of a big difference between difficult, which it unquestionably is, and Good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2002, 10:40:36 AM »
J_Olson- I believe you may have a future working for some of the top designers of our day.

But, Why does minimal room for error translate as hard?

 With those smallish greens, missing them should be commonplace, and therefore just taxes another aspect of the game, chipping.

Is that so hard?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2002, 10:51:41 AM »
Not to get in the middle of this ACM, but didn't YOU just post that you were impressed with WCC's being the 8th most difficult course on tour?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Westchester is overrated
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2002, 07:43:29 PM »
Westchester has some great holes and some average ones too, but its a really fun place to play golf. 10 and 11 are as good a pair as you'll find back to back. Overated? Why, because the pros like it? Because you don't? Blind shots, side slopes and narrow sections on the fairway are just part of an unusual and delightful round. Its still very fair and a lot of fun.
If you don't like it, why do you go back?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »