Goethe on gca?

[BCrosby]

I thought of Peter Pallota when I ran across the following:

"Architecture is frozen music." - Goethe

Just a wild guess, but I doubt Goethe was thinking of golf courses. Still, an interesting thought when appled to same.

Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob - you'd know about this better than I, but that seems a terrific analogy - with one proviso.

Music is movement both horizontal (ie melody) and vertical (ie harmony).

The best of it is wonderfully paced and engaging horizontally, and deepened and enriched and made more complex vertically.

And the very best music manifests an almost perfect balance between the two - the harmony not weighing down the melody, the melody giving purpose and verve to the harmony.

Golf architecture freezes those two movements - but only, and here's the beauty, until the first golfer of the day strikes the first golf ball.

I'm reminded of Augusta in its original form

Peter

[Mark_Rowlinson]

But Goethe was a musical Philistine. Compare Schubert's Erlkoenig (which he rejected) with that of Carolina Schroeter (which he cited as a model) and Schubert's knocks you off your perch, while Schroeter's might be as appropriate to a vicarage sherry party or the viilage marrow competition.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bob,

I am in complete disagreement with that application. A golf course is not to golf architecture the same as a building is to architecture.

The form and function of the building remains almost always static and unchanged in it's appearance and structure whereas most golf courses experience major changes to them to the extent that they are quite different in playability, shot angles and even look because of the changes to them.

Again, the illustration of ANGC is a good one here and for a differemt reason than used earlier. For example, according to Goethe's philosophy the 16th hole would never have been completely redesigned and changed from what it was to what it now is.

I am a big believer that golf courses are 'alive' in that as all living creatures do as age comes upon them, changes occur. These are brought about by various causes. The first is nature and it's occurances and the responses to them. An example of this is Brook Hollow. Finished in 1922 this 6,300 yard long Tilly original design that very year experienced a rainy season that produced massive flooding which was followed a long and brutal heat-wave induced crought. The result was a near complete destruction of turf with broken soil everywhere. Tilly came back and instead of reatoring the course gave it a redesign. He added 300 yards to it. Where almost all holes had a single tee box, now multiple tees were used so that the course would be able to play far less than the original 6,300 design. One might also consider the incredible effect that the growth of trees play on all courses.

The next way in which a course 'ages' is just as parents do, by the actions of their children upon their lives. How those that come after the original designing membership choose to manage and care for the course can change it dynamicly. Look at Merion. On the new thread started by Rick Wolffe it has been mentioned how a number of entirely new holes were created as a result of the coming U.S. Amateur championship.

In both cases these are major changes to the course that are far more akin to the ravages of life rather than the normal architectural changes experienced by the vast majority of buildings. They go through series of minimal cosmetic changes to satisfy the needs of tenants whereas golf courses are experimented on as a constancy to their existence.

That is why I am of the opinion and am in agreement with others who view golf courses as evolving living entities rather mere structures upon which the inhabitants throw on some paint and add a few "personal touches" here and there.

[Charlie Goerges]

Bob, a nice, thought-provoking post.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I thought I'd address a couple of issues as I see it.

Mark,
You may be right that Goethe was a musical philistine, but that in and of itself does not disqualify his statement. In fact his statement could be read to have little to do with music and much to do with architecture. In any event, he was obviously not talking about golf course design, the idea would have been new/non-existent at that time. On the other hand, he could be totally wrong.

Phillip,
I suspect that your idea of the evolution of courses is close to reality, but I don't think your idea of the constancy of architecture is totally correct. In this day and age, most buildings or houses are simply torn down when they've outlived their usefulness. But think back to an age when a farm or home would be in a family for generations, those buildings grew, changed, multiplied, and died (burned; a common occurrence). The homes and public buildings from that age were at the mercy of nature as much as (if not more than) golf courses are.

Peter,
You delve into the gray areas as well and as often as anyone. In this case, unfortunately I don't quite get the connection between the timeline from your simile (first golfer of the day), and the timeline from your example (Augusta). In human terms, I think there is quite a difference between a day and a century (or several decades as in the example). I would think that the difference between a day and a century is greater (to an individual) than the differnce between a century and a millenium. None will live long enough to judge the difference.

Sorry to have gone on so much. And again, just playing devil's advocate, obviously there are no concrete answers in a subject like this. But even so, I think this type of discussion worthwhile.

Charlie

[Phil_the_Author]

Charlie,

Maybe I can better explain what I mean this way. A building never naturally improves with time, it only ages. That isn't the case with golf courses.

This coming year sees the 2009 U.S. Open at Bethpage Black. Many eyes will be drawn to the tree fronting the right corner of the green. It is a beautiful and strategically-placed that directly impacts play. It was planted by nature. When the course opened for play in 1936 there was nothing on that hill but scrub grasses and a large bunker. A wind-blown seed found itself implanted into the eactly right spot on the hillside and they simply let it grow. In and of itself it changed the entire purpose of the hill and bunker which was eliminated and the nature of the hole's design.

That never happens to a building, and it is in that sense that I view golf courses as a living entity that grows through the nature of life rather than simply in answer to the utilitarian needs of its owner.

Remember the Goethe' quote used as the foundation of the discussion, "Architecture is frozen music." That implies that it is static and unchanging rather than evolving as I believe. That is why I disagree with the premise.

[Peter Pallotta]

Charlie - I just meant this: that golf architecure is analogous to music in that golf courses play both outwards (horizontally) and up and down (vertically) - and like the melody and harmony of music, these two movements can potentially work perfectly together. In that sense, I thought of the old AUgusta National.  And I meant that golf architecture is also like music in that these movements are NOT frozen, i.e. they may be static overnight, but the moment the first golfer hits the first golf ball, the golf course comes alive again -- in relationship.

Peter   

[Steve Lang]

  could one then describe the build-up of hole features with the "circle of fifths" as a key guide?

  would all of golf be a Bach Chorale? between the opening and closing shots, tension and partial resolution?

[Charlie Goerges]

Peter,

I just got it! Brilliant!

[Charlie Goerges]

Philip, I agree with you RE golf courses. I just disagree somewhat in terms of building architecture. Nature may not have the same effect on buildings as it does on golf courses, but I think it does have an effect. Never the less, the changing of courses is a beautiful thing, and your example at bethpage is now my favorite example of natural change (especially because it involves a tree); and it's beautifully worded. Do you have a photo of that tree?

[Adam_F_Collins]

I opened my thesis on design theory with a Goethe quote:

"If in the infinite you wish to stride, just walk the finite - to every side."

Perhaps one could relate that one to GCA...

[Norbert P]

  With the weather the way it is - cold - I feel more like crawling into a brick bread oven and contemplating my existence.

"You can't put Descartes before the Goethe"

or  "Always put Horace before Descartes"

I heard those on WYMI , the all philosophy radio station.