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Craig Sweet

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #300 on: December 22, 2008, 05:22:52 PM »
Shivas...you never do like the facts to get in the way of your thinking do you...

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #301 on: December 22, 2008, 05:23:49 PM »
And Shivas...please feel free to refute the Princeton study...if you can.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

John Moore II

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #302 on: December 22, 2008, 05:36:46 PM »
Well, I haven't read this thread since it went past page 1, but I can only wonder when this latest discussion of what is surely to become political (assuming it hasn't all ready, and looking at the first page, I'd say it has) will last before being yanked like the rest of them. Just an observation.

Craig Sweet

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #303 on: December 22, 2008, 05:42:54 PM »
Shivas...Lou specifically was talking about Gov. Patterson and NY State....and the last time I checked the governor of NY could not raise federal taxes.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #304 on: December 22, 2008, 06:00:56 PM »
And it specifically states that it did not hamper job creation to raise the taxes of the wealthiest....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

JMEvensky

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #305 on: December 22, 2008, 06:19:36 PM »
Lou...you say it is reasonable to believe that most Americans thing individuals can spend money more efficiently than the government can....unlike Mucci I will not ask you to post proof or anything....maybe people believe that and maybe they don't...This I do know...the government can build streets, provide fire and police protection, deliver mail, provide health care, educate our children, more efficiently and cheaper than an individual....

This I will give you...the story that the conservatives have been able to tell over the last 30 years...government is bad, taxes are a burden, greed is good...has been ingrained into the minds of an entire generation....HOWEVER...just as we saw 80 years ago as this country came out of the Roaring 20's into the Great Depression, this story has a very, very bad ending for most Americans...and fortunately, the awakening from that is occurring....witness the 2006 elections and the recent election of Obama.....this time the new story is going to be written by the people....not the elites in the Republican party....not the corporate execs.  



I can honestly say that I've never,before now, witnessed anyone try to make a case for the efficiency/cost effectiveness of government.

There are many privately owned/operated roads.Drivers frequently pay a premium but,presumably,they derive greater value from their usage.I'm unaware of any private road which has failed due to the competition presented by a cheaper/more efficient government road.

There are many communities/neighborhoods with private security forces.Again,these users pay a fee over/above their usual fee for police protection(taxes) yet must derive some value.

FedEx became a multi-billion dollar company by disproving the efficiency of the USPS.

Parents have for years made sacrifices to send their children to private schools due to the efficiency of government-run public schools.

I'm still looking for that  one,good singular government-run health care system.When I find it,it won't be cheaper.It won't be more efficient.And,most important,it won't be better.

I have a lot of friends who've emigrated from former Soviet bloc countries.It's always interesting to hear their reactions about economic issues in the news.Lately,it's been a lot of curiosity about why anyone would ever want any government to own anything.They know first hand how that works.That's why they moved here in the first place.

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #306 on: December 22, 2008, 08:57:07 PM »
"Or the fact that this is the 2004 through 2007 timeframe, where the economy was rocking?"

Shivas,

How do you define rocking?  It actually was a quite meagre expansion, with most of the GDP increase going to a very small number of folks.

Was productivity growth greater from 2004-07 than under the Clinton recovery, or the boom that occurred AFTER  taxes were raised in 1994, when conservatives insisted that we were headed for a depression?  What happened to the stock market during Clinton's time in office? Bush's (even before the meltdown)? Was the recovery from the recession in 2000 more robust or less than the average post-war recovery from recessions? 

Lou, you compare a 70% rate (marginal I assume) to a 30% rate, which is a straw man (like the conservative that said that the 80s were a terrific time because of Reagan, and that they ran from 1982-1988.  Nice.  What about the difference between a marginal rate of 30% and 36%?  And, to use your analogy, if you already earn $150 million in a year, how much incentive do you have to be more productive?   
That was one hellacious beaver.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #307 on: December 22, 2008, 09:10:42 PM »
I don't know a single employer that got a tax break and turned around an hired more employees....job creation is determined by demand...not tax breaks.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #308 on: December 23, 2008, 10:05:56 AM »
Shivas/Schmidt...do you feel better cus' you "called me out" and then wasted some of your precious time here on earth, not once, but twice, trying to goad me into responding?

Do you lawyers always walk around with a hard on looking for confrontation?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

corey miller

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #309 on: December 23, 2008, 10:12:13 AM »


Posted by: Craig Sweet      Posted on: Yesterday at 09:10:42 pm
Insert Quote
I don't know a single employer that got a tax break and turned around an hired more employees....job creation is determined by demand...not tax breaks.


I know more than a few small business owners that will fire employees if taxes go up.  They want to earn the same $$$ after a tax hike that they earned before.

Craig Sweet

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #310 on: December 23, 2008, 10:21:08 AM »
Shivas...why don't you tell us about the New Party....have you had any first hand experience with the New Party?  Perhaps you could tell us what "radical left" ideas they have.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #311 on: December 23, 2008, 10:30:52 AM »
Go ahead Shivas...tell us from your first hand knowledge about the New Party...

The American Thinker...what a joke...uses all the buzz words for ya...radical, marxist, socialist, communist, pro union...

Come on...you must have some first hand knowledge of the New Party...after all, you brought it up.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #312 on: December 23, 2008, 10:36:04 AM »
I bet you did....from what I can tell,  99% of the information about the New Party that comes up when you google it, is the wet dream of the radical right....the fringe that see a commie hiding under every bed...and not accurate at all....

What did you find when you googled my name and the New Party?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #313 on: December 23, 2008, 10:42:57 AM »
I think I just did...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

tlavin

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #314 on: December 23, 2008, 11:06:43 AM »
I laughed out loud at this blurb in the middle of a post from Lou up above:

The whole idea of supply side economics is not as Goldman and others who ridicule it as "trickle-down", but the common sense, observable, and demonstrable human behavior that when we are allowed to keep more of what we produce, we will produce more.  It is happening throughout many parts of the world who were previoulsy socialist basket cases (including many of the former Soviet republics).

Here's what has trickled down to the middle and lower class from decades of supply-side lunacy: an economy based almost entirely on consumption with no savings to speak of, an economy that manufactures only a fraction of what it did thirty years ago, an economy that allowed the richest to get rich with precious little accounting of how they were allowed to get rich (Wall Street investment bankers in the main).  The government did everything it could to enable these hogs to get fatter and fatter.  Here's a good one: how about if we allow you to increase your leverage quotient from 12-1 to 30-1!  If you're an insurance company, how about if you decide to also become a mortgage broker!  If you're a mortgage broker, why not become a bank?  Go ahead and give mortgages to people with no money down, no credit history, no fricking job!  We'll just bundle them up together and sell 'em in bulk.  We'll pay off Moody's to give us a phony rating and they'll go like hotcakes.  The price of real estate, after all is going up, up, up!  We'll come up with investments that are so hard to understand (credit default swaps, collateralized debt obligations) that they won't even try to regulate them.  Just let us geniuses do what geniuses do!

We'll give out bonuses based on paper profits and we'll all use our money to benefit the lower classes.  Let it trickle down on the people who make our private jets.  We'll need more people to cut our grass, because the home is on 25 acres!  Look how beneficent we are!

If it all goes to shit, don't worry, we have our guy running Treasury.  He'll protect the right guys, without asking a single question about what we'll do with the money.  But if a real manufacturing entity needs money, we'll grill 'em like a cheap steak and tell them to quit paying their workers too much money.  We'll make 'em jump through hoops to get dribs and drabs.

Goldman Sachs?  Give 'em $10 billion to right the ship!  How do they use the money?  Just pay out $10 billion in bonuses!  You have to do that to keep quality people.

Trickle down economics was b.s. when Reagan pushed it thirty years ago and it's still b.s. now.  If trickle down is applied to real manufacturing concerns and they expand plants and put more people to work, there might be some merit to it.  In the financial and tech sectors, the supply siders were left to run amok with no meaningful regulation and look what it got us!  Despair.


« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 12:12:16 PM by Terry Lavin »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #315 on: December 23, 2008, 11:27:56 AM »
The funny part about the whole Laffer/trickle down whatever is this....it is labor that produces...not capital. 
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #316 on: December 23, 2008, 12:10:14 PM »
"The whole idea of supply side economics is not as Goldman and others who ridicule it as "trickle-down", but the common sense, observable, and demonstrable human behavior that when we are allowed to keep more of what we produce, we will produce more.  It is happening throughout many parts of the world who were previoulsy socialist basket cases (including many of the former Soviet republics). "

Lou,

I have never analogized supply-side economics to "trickle-down."  I have called its supporters cranks, and would call them crackpots if asked, but not trickle down.   ;D

Supply-side economics isn't just a vague notion of "individuals are better with their money than government".  It is purportedly a system of economics with principles and beliefs in causes and effects.  I don't quarrel generally with the general statement, but the specific beliefs are nuts.  Do you think that the money supply, however measured, has nothing to do with inflation?  The supply-siders do.  Do you think inflation is caused only by exchange rate fluctuations?  The supply-siders do.  Do you think Friedman was a hack?  The supply-siders do.  Do you think the depression was caused by restrictions on free trade, and was NOT a monetary phenomenon?  The supply-siders do (Keynsians believe none of these things).

That's the problem with ideologues.  They fit the facts to meet their beliefs.  Pragmatists, with any luck, have a set of principles, but when things change, are willing to listen.  I generally favor somewhat higher taxes on very wealthy people, and believe in the market more than most conservatives on this site (and therefore would tax capital and labor equally), but, given the financial mess we're in, raising taxes on anyone now would be crazy.

Finally, to really blow things up, I find it very odd that the present administration looked to the Stalinists for their expertise in gathering intelligence from captives, but don't give them the same respect for their economics.  I guess that is a sort of pragmatism, in a Nuremburg sort of way.   ::)
That was one hellacious beaver.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #317 on: December 23, 2008, 12:13:19 PM »
Exactly...wages from labor creates demand...and demand drives the economy..smart business looks at demand and acts accordingly....they do not sit there and say "hey, I got a tax cut, I think I'll manufacture some widgets".















No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #318 on: December 23, 2008, 12:20:12 PM »
I'm not reading any of the posts, don't ask me questions, I just thought I'd post this link to an article on the SEC and Madoff. Even though it's from a largely conservative website, it is rather damning of the SEC under W, so I thought the haters would enjoy that.

How Madoff Did It

The title of the article is a little misleading; there isn't much about how he did it. Rather, it's mostly about how the warning signs were there.

As I said, don't ask me questions, I'm not reading other posts. If you feel the need to vent, send me a private message, I will read those.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #319 on: December 23, 2008, 12:21:49 PM »
first of all...people have to be working....and people have to have some money...tax cuts will not generate enough demand
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Lou_Duran

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #320 on: December 23, 2008, 02:09:09 PM »
I think we need a good psychoanalyst to consult here as much as a classically-trained economist.

I am glad to have made Terry Laving laugh.  It never ceases to amaze me how willing some people who live in glass houses are to throw stones.  Here we have a man who is extolling the virtues of manufacturing and the evils of the financial and service sectors.  He apparently believes that the government should set "leverage quotients" and decide who should go into what professions.  Bonuses on paper profits?  The horror!  Perhaps he'll disclose how he's achieved his great wealth and position of privilege in the ruling class.

As to Jeff Goldman, this is rich: "That's the problem with ideologues.  They fit the facts to meet their beliefs.  Pragmatists, with any luck, have a set of principles, but when things change, are willing to listen.".

There is a concept in psychology called projection.  It is a defense mechanism where we project or attribute one's own undesired characteristics or thoughts to others.  Jeff, my friend, you are a dear mean with many, many good traits, but being pragmatic when it comes to politics is not among them.  Dogmatic, yes.  Willing to change and listen?  Not so much.

One example: you keep bringing up the need to tax capital and labor the same and take great delight in exposing conservatives as economic or market hypocrits.   Now, on more than a couple of occasions I've tried to explain that many of us would be content if government stopped the double taxation of dividends, the straight taxation of investment interest income without first deducting interest expense, and the taxation of business profits, but, instead, tax all income at the individual level without regard to its source.

I have also tried to explain the rationale for having different rates for capital and labor by which government seeks to encourage the former due to its importance and scarcity relative to the latter.  Anyways, to the extent that many of us believe we're heavily over-taxed and that government today is inappropiately in the business of determing winners and loses, we'll take any break we can get.  Given the last year, this is sort of a moot point, wouldn't you agree?  So why do you keep bringing it up?  Your pragmatism acting up again?

I must admit, you are well read, but how did you say it earlier, might you be fitting your facts to meet your beliefs?   I doubt very much that supply-siders considered Friedman a "hack", though such an accusation may have been tossed around in the spirit of academic competition.  BTW, did you get this divide and conquer tactic from the Chicago or national party playbook?

I think that most principled pragmatists after a carefull reading of Friedman and Wanniski or Laffer would conclude that both camps have much in common- namely a bedrock belief in the inability of government to do much good in the economy and a propensity to do great harm.  Even their disagreement relative to monetary policy and its importance in the economy was one of degree and not direction.  Both believed monetary policy had to be independent of politics.  One believed that the money supply should increase slowly, steadily, predictably to accomodate economic growth.  The other prefered tying it to an objective standard, a relatively scarce commodity that could not be manipulated wildly for political reasons.  Both camps believed that the economy would work best for all with markets made up of millions of individuals making decisions freely with minimum government interference.  Common to both, a preference for low tax rates and small government naturally follows.

As to the Nurenburg comment, it is inappropriate and way beneath you.  This is an analogy, one that is not only offensive on its face, but totally, grossly inaccurate.  Your side which is now calling for reconciliation and understanding could never help itself during the last eight years, making frequent comparisons of Bush to Hitler and denigrating Christians.  Now Stalin and Nurenberg.  You guys sure know how to capture minds and hearts.

Craig Sweet,

The old chicken or the egg mystery does not apply to labor and capital.  If capital was so easy and derivative of labor, we wouldn't have a nation of employees and we wouldn't have a party that since at least 1930 has been engaged in a highly devisive class war.  Most of us should thank God and/or our lucky stars that there are exceptional men and women in this world who create and invest their capital so that we have employ.  In this great country where some 45% don't pay any income taxes and many live in relative comfort, we should be doing this at least couple of times a day.

I have known people who have saved during much of their life to start a business.  Any savings, be it from eating more beans and less beef, riding a bike vs. driving, or paying less to the government (a tax cut) as opposed to paying more, is money in their pocket and a step closer to their dream.  BTW, I've worked in manufacturing and one often doesn't wait to receive an order for widgets before making them.  In many businesses, a product is created long before there is demand for it.  I know you ideologues are blocked on this, but supply often does beget its own demand.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 03:01:56 PM by Lou_Duran »

Craig Van Egmond

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Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #322 on: December 23, 2008, 03:19:06 PM »
  "I doubt very much that supply-siders considered Friedman a "hack", though such an accusation may have been tossed around in the spirit of academic competition."

This is an excerpt from a letter published by Jude Wanniski, to Larry Lindsay:

An open letter to Larry Lindsey:
In your Wall Street Journal op-ed of Jan. 27, remarking on "The 17-Year Boom," you opened by saying Bill Clinton would probably take credit for the booming economy when he delivered his State of the Union speech that night. He did. But as I read on, looking for your take on who should get credit, I never found the names of any of the original supply-siders or of Ronald Reagan. Instead, I find this outrageous statement: "Economists came to see 'supply side' management of both inflation expectations and the supply of labor and capital as at least as important as 'demand side' management of spending power. Milton Friedman's lonely voice gave way to a chorus, and the Reagan administration translated it into policy."

Larry, this 17-year economic expansion had absolutely nothing to do with the lonely voice of Milton Friedman. It was, in fact, Friedman and his dopey monetarist idea that you could manage the national economy to perfection by increasing the money supply by 3 percent a year that caused the worst inflation in world history!"

It gets worse, but I think referring to "Friedman and his dopey monetarist idea" is pretty close to calling him a hack.  And if you want more, the entire letter is at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=2914.  Note especially where Wanniski says "Milton Friedman not only screwed up the world monetary system. He also fought the supply-siders on tax policy every step of the way." 

On another point, higher ups in the Bush adminstration have admitted quite candidly that they designed their interrogation policy directly basedon the practices used under Stalin (and, I guess, by watching that tv show "24").  They did not consult any military professional interrogators, ignored the army manual, and failed absolutely to consider real evidence of what effective interrogation is and how it works.  They simply assumed, as many laymen do, that beating people, putting them in freezing and hot places, forcing them to stand for days, hanging them up by their wrists, etc. etc. is the best way to get them to talk.  Probably is, but not necessarily truthfully.  (as an aside  this weekend I re-watched again one of the great movies of the "Australian New Wave" of the late 70s early 80s, Breaker Morant.  Still terrific, and quite relevant.  And by the way, the great masterpiece of that era, The Chant of Jimmie Blacksmith, finally got issued on DVD recently.)
 
I just tossed in the bit about capital and labor for fun.  We know our views on that.
That was one hellacious beaver.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #323 on: December 23, 2008, 03:29:06 PM »
I'm not reading any of the posts, don't ask me questions, I just thought I'd post this link to an article on the SEC and Madoff. Even though it's from a largely conservative website, it is rather damning of the SEC under W, so I thought the haters would enjoy that.

How Madoff Did It

The title of the article is a little misleading; there isn't much about how he did it. Rather, it's mostly about how the warning signs were there.

As I said, don't ask me questions, I'm not reading other posts. If you feel the need to vent, send me a private message, I will read those.

Now, if either Mssr.'s Sweet or Shivas would adopt this type of "I'm not playing, but listen to this" kind of attitude, this thread could quietly fade to black......

I wish I had the kind of pull and respect to pull this off like George just did....atta boy, George!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #324 on: December 23, 2008, 05:24:38 PM »
It's not as if the world was waiting with baited breath for it, because as we all know, there are about 80 gazillion well-known and clearly identified reasons to flee New Jersey already!  ;)

Isn't the award of a PhD limited to candidates who make a substantial contribution to knowledge?  If what you say above is accurate, is it fair to characterise their area of research as being insufficient for the award of a doctoral degree?  ;D