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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #175 on: December 17, 2008, 06:03:46 PM »
Peter,

I may be naive, but I refuse to believe that we all have a price and only differ on the amount.  I've been in positions where I could influence important decisions and never gave a second thought to inducements to steer business improperly.  I've turned down inducements ranging from a round at ANGC to a cushy, high-paying job managing a large real estate portfolio contingent on me doing things that were not necessarily in my principals' interests.  Making the right decision was not hard, and I think most people do the right thing under similar circumstances.  For every Madoff there are hundreds who don't betray their clients' trust.  We just never hear about them.  

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #176 on: December 17, 2008, 06:09:50 PM »

 Bloomberg states that he has a 9.8 handicap. Any bets on how honest that handicap is?


Mayday,

I'll bet you it's honest.

What do you want to bet ?


It is a bit stale based on the age of the scores:

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #177 on: December 17, 2008, 07:06:13 PM »
Pass a simple law that every dime received or spent by a campaign must be posted prominently on the internet with the full proper names and domiciles of the actual principals clearly identified.
Lou,
   These sites are easy to find on the Internet. Type in someone's name and "campaign contributions" on Google and something should come up.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Abe Summers

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #178 on: December 17, 2008, 08:09:59 PM »
This thread has gotten long, but here's a summary of who seems to have gotten burned:
http://projects.nytimes.com/creditcrisis/madoff_clients/table

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #179 on: December 18, 2008, 01:20:57 AM »
I honestly have no interest in a political debate on this thread as I think we all know where we stand in general. 

What I want to know is... how many people KNEW what was going on?  It seems completely impossible to me that one person, or even if you include a few family members in on it as well, could hide this.  This appears to me to implicate many hands that are covered in green blood.  There had to be investors that more or less knew what was going on but kept quiet as long as their returns were coming in.  These investors could even include non-profit organizations.  This is starting to look like it was always a transparent Ponzi scheme to some of those that were invested in Madoff's firm.   

This is a failure on so many levels it's ridiculous.  I am not much of a conspiracy theory guy but every day the idea of an "Illuminati" seems more possible.  The wiping out of peoples' fortunes and the consolidation and concentration of wealth and power is at a staggeringly, rapid pace.  The fact that the U.S. government doesn't even control the right to print its own currency, the Wall Street bubbles and their guaranteed burstings, the Madoff-type scandals, etc. are just about to push me into the wacko-zone on my core beliefs.  This stuff has no party other than money/power.  This isn't a class-warfare take either, this is about a select few groups that seem to be ever-growing their stranglehold on the world economy.

Hopefully, if a NWO is ever truly introduced they'll at least allow us access to some great courses, that's obviously assuming we don't piss Big Brother off.  Orwell seems more and more like a genius everyday.


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 02:04:57 AM by Jeff Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #180 on: December 18, 2008, 01:52:53 AM »
Let me quote James Garfield from 1881...

"Whosoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce... And when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate."

How prophetic.


Jeff F.

P.S.: Weeks after Garfield made this statement he was assassinated.  Creepy.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 02:16:15 AM by Jeff Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #181 on: December 18, 2008, 01:59:56 AM »
Kevin, Patrick, Mike -

Since this is an investment topic, you need the disclaimer when talking handicaps:

"Past performance is not an indicator of future results"





It is a bit stale based on the age of the scores:

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Eric Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #182 on: December 18, 2008, 07:04:56 AM »
unless the club was in financial trouble heading into this mess....

bingo.
It is what it is.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #183 on: December 18, 2008, 08:29:39 AM »
Lou...I have never bought the "transparency" idea behind campaign finance laws...sure, transparency is a good thing, but only political wonks track every contribution, and only political wonks get worked up over where the money is coming from...what happens is someone raises huge sums of money and typically wins and no one cares where the money came from...I think some use the transparency argument because they want no limits on who can spend and how much they can spend...as if all is well if we only have transparency....

And the money does not end with the campaign...BILLIONS are spent influencing legislation every year...and history leaves no doubt that he that spends the most lobbying, gets the most...

And that leads to this....the average person has little choice but to join a "special interest" to get his/her interest heard...be it a union, a conservation group, whatever...

It was the lobbying of special interest in the financial industry that made someone like Madoff possible...they lobbied for less regulation, they lobbied to get the right people in the SEC....if people are going to scam the system they figured, why not legalize most of the scaming and let transparency shine the light on the real bad guys...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #184 on: December 18, 2008, 08:34:10 AM »
Jeff

I had posted much earlier that many thought that Madoff was doing something lets say questionable at the least that would allow him to get the consistent results he did. In fact many thought it was the illegal practice of insider trading. Seems they were willing to overlook or turn a blind eye as long as results were good.

Not sure if this is true or not but it an interesting note.

John
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #185 on: December 18, 2008, 09:41:47 AM »

Who was that mogul who had posted 20 scores in the range of 84-87 (or whatever) who was outed here on GCA.com?

Rich, that was Richard Halmi who partnered to win the pro am at Pebble et al.  I remember because I have since referred to a score of 85 as a "Halmi."

Bogey
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 09:44:22 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Rich Goodale

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #186 on: December 18, 2008, 09:48:59 AM »

Who was that mogul who had posted 20 scores in the range of 84-87 (or whatever) who was outed here on GCA.com?

Rich, that was Richard Halmi who partnered to win the pro am at Pebble et al.  I remember because I have since referred to a score of 85 as a "Halmi."

Bogey

Thanks, Mike

I've taken to calling any one over "par" score a "Hendren."

Rich

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #187 on: December 18, 2008, 09:55:44 AM »
Reminds me of an old saying:  "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at who he gives it to."

Bogey
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 10:14:25 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Nick Church

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #188 on: December 18, 2008, 11:24:05 AM »
Mr. Daley:

As I read your posts, I believe a recurring theme is "money is the root of all evil."    I would submit that human greed & lust is the root of all evil.  (Note: I don't claim that as an original concept --- someone else thought of it first).

Money as the root of all evil assumes the equation that without money, corruption ceases to have the oxygen necessary to sustain itself.  I believe it is naive to believe that removing the money variable would halt the steady march of selfish individuals into politics. 

Why?  Power would still be in great supply.  By definition, political positions are about power.   In the end, even the greediest of individuals only care about money because it's the most expedient tool of influence & power.   Take away one tool of power (money) and humans will find another.
 
I, too, believe in strict term limits in the way that Mr. Duran describes.  Much easier to enforce & monitor, the hard & fast term limit would at least restrict the time window that a legislator could leverage the position for personal gain.

The alternative of trying to eliminate money from politics altogether would be primarily successful in creating another bloated federal watchdog agency.  No thank you.

Well Lou, it seems to me that there is one fragile branch onto which you and I can meet in gerneral agreement regarding politicians just being lucky and well connected, and demonstrating over and over again that strict term limits are better than no term limits. 

But, as for too many CEOs (not all), they are the connection to the money that makes the luck for too many politicians... IMHO.  And, getting all money out of politics is the only way to serve the people, and getting elected based on what you say in free open airwaves and media.  Throw in an additional election regulation similar to what the Brits have.  The election is declared and the campaign season goes for about 6-8 max.  Oh, and give the national candidates free transportation too.  No more Enron jets like 1999.

No special interest negative ads on TV misleading the masses in 30 second slim fests.  Make the people get off their dead asses and go read the position papers of the candidates on the Internet, listen to free sponsored debates on TV, and force them to make informed choices.  Let the press scrutinize the positions of candidates until the cows come home.  Just no phoney fair and balanced news from Fox or MSNBC.  If they catch-em lying, prove it in the free press.   
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 05:25:58 PM by Nick Church »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #189 on: December 18, 2008, 11:41:30 AM »
Nick...I believe the saying is "the LOVE for money is the root of all evil"
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #190 on: December 18, 2008, 11:44:34 AM »
Quote
Let the press scrutinize the positions of candidates until the cows come home.  Just no phoney fair and balanced news from Fox or MSNBC.  If they catch-em lying, prove it in the free press.

Dick, what do you do when the press picks a favorite and the coverage is not as equal as you are assuming, or declines to truly scrutinize one or the other candidate?  I don't watch them, but are you implying that a news source like Fox or MSNBC is less valuable or reliable than a source like the NY Times, or that one should be allowed and the other censored?

"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #191 on: December 18, 2008, 12:02:36 PM »
Quoting Thomas Edison...

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill.  The element that makes the dollar bond good, makes the bill good, also.  The difference between the bond and the bill is the bond lets money brokers collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20%, where as the currency pays nobody but those who contribute directly in some useful way.

It is absurd to say that our country can issue $30 million in bonds and not $30 million in currency.  Both are promises to pay, but one promise fattens the usurers and one helps the people."


I am starting to realize how the member banks of the Fed make money out of thin air and make money in interest off that money.  They literally contribute nothing to society other than the printing of money and it's loaning thereafter.  They are making money out of nothing.  Literally making it rain green from just saying that the money exists.  What a scam.  The Federal Reserve Act was passed in 1913 on December 23rd or 24th with only 3 senators present.  They passed it after the House approved it.  There were 80-90 senators at the time, and only 3 were present for the vote. 

We need someone with balls like Lincoln to start printing Greenbacks again.  This is a joke.


Jeff F.

#nowhitebelt

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #192 on: December 18, 2008, 12:18:47 PM »
If you are still wondering why stuff like this happen, there is a very good explainer on NY Times today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/18/business/18pay.html?em

One exec at Merrill Lynch made over $100 million just in bonuses due to the "profits" he brought in (which have all vanished and infact led to the demise of Merrill).

When people who contribute 0% to the production of the economy takes most of its largess, things are bound to break down.

Aren't you glad that the taxpayers are footing the bill this Christmas time so that these Wall Streeters still get their bonus this Christmas?

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #193 on: December 18, 2008, 12:28:12 PM »
This thread has gotten long, but here's a summary of who seems to have gotten burned:
http://projects.nytimes.com/creditcrisis/madoff_clients/table

Madoff Family Foundation         Charity             Lost $19 Million       

  It's tough to read some of those scoured, like Gift of Life Bone Marrow Foundation, etc.

  "How does he sleep at night?"  Hopefully with some big psycho named Sluggo.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 12:31:10 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #194 on: December 18, 2008, 12:34:18 PM »
This thread has gotten long, but here's a summary of who seems to have gotten burned:
http://projects.nytimes.com/creditcrisis/madoff_clients/table

Madoff Family Foundation         Charity             Lost $19 Million       

  It's tough to read some of those scoured, like Gift of Life Bone Marrow Foundation, etc.

  "How does he sleep at night?"  Hopefully with some big psycho named Sluggo.



Slag

Mind you, how much dirty money went into these charities?  I don't have a clue, but the flow of bad money isn't a one way deal.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #195 on: December 18, 2008, 01:17:03 PM »
 Sean, I can't speculate on that. I know there's some dirty money in some charities, created and fed for the wrong reasons - perhaps tax reasons - but if we react overly suspiciously, that can't help the higher causes.  Benevolence shouldn't be forgotten as a virtue.

"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #196 on: December 18, 2008, 01:21:37 PM »
Nick Church, you've almost got me right, but you are one step removed from my core principle and something I have said over and over on these O.T. threads for years.  I do not end with "money is the root of all evil", or thirst for money, per se.  I know many many people with money that are wonderful and admirable people.  And, that is not just because they give their money or lend it, or invest it in making society better.  It is because they have "ETHICS" about who they are, and what they do, or don't do. 

So, if you are going to peg me, please know that I don't hate people with money.  I believe at my core that the evolution of a sick ethic has taken place, via the ever increasing ability to distort and pervert human attitudes and inclinations with media and cultural bombardment and has twisted our collective ethic and fueled greed and lust for power. 

I like when these topics veer off and force me to go looking at quote pages to review some synopsis of great thinkers ideals on various philosophical subjects, since I can't possibly read them all or remember the minutia of those that I have read:

http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_ethics.html
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #197 on: December 18, 2008, 02:02:14 PM »
Has anyone mentioned the irony that his named is pronounced "Made Off"?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #198 on: December 18, 2008, 02:06:55 PM »
a friend pointed out an interesting thing to me
Go to GHIN.com and look up his handicap index and scores-
notice a pattern?
very consistent returns....
Betcha he couldn't break 100 in reality
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #199 on: December 18, 2008, 02:52:36 PM »

The SEC knew about Madoff for a long time.   

From the WSJ:

Securities and Exchange Commission investigators discovered in 2006 that Bernard Madoff had misled the agency about how he managed customer money, according to documents, yet the SEC missed an opportunity to uncover an alleged Ponzi scheme.

The documents indicate the agency had Mr. Madoff in its sights amid multiple violations that, if pursued, could have blown open his alleged multibillion-dollar scam. Instead, his firm registered as an investment adviser, at the agency's request, and the public got no word of the violations.

Harry Markopolos -- who once worked for a Madoff rival -- sparked the probe with his nearly decadelong campaign to persuade the SEC that Mr. Madoff's returns were too good to be true. In recent days, The Wall Street Journal reviewed emails, letters and other documents that Mr. Markopolos shared with the SEC over the years.


HARRY MARKOPOLOS
When he first began studying Mr. Madoff's investment performance a decade ago, Mr. Markopolos told a colleague at the time, "It doesn't make any damn sense," he and the colleague recall. "This has to be a Ponzi scheme."

For Mr. Markopolos, the arrest last week of Mr. Madoff was something of a vindication after his long campaign. At a certain point, he says, "I was just the boy who cried wolf."

A lawyer for Mr. Madoff declined to comment on Mr. Markopolos's allegations.