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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Depth
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2008, 02:36:56 PM »
Melvyn,
You misunderstand where I'm coming from and you are trying to take a topic and make it black and white.  You are also trying to compartmentalize bunkers as purely penal in nature which is incorrect.  This is a very grey subject and a misunderstood one (one could write a whole book on it). 
Mark

Anthony Gray

Re: Bunker Depth
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2008, 04:00:02 PM »


  I stated before that the standard is different between fairway bunker depths in the UK and US, the older courses are evidence.

  QUESTION-- Are there examples of fairway bunkres that require a sideways or backwards play on modern UK courses (Kingsbarns, The Castle, etc). Does this suggest an american influence on design?


   Anthony


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Depth
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2008, 04:28:11 PM »
Mark, great idea, get right on that please.  ;)

Melvyn,
A bunker with no effective lip that's placed 50 yards from a green is as much of a challenge as a bunker with a 3' lip at 150 yards out, at least for 9 out of 10 players in our undeveloped country.  ;)


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Depth
« Reply #78 on: December 18, 2008, 08:08:47 PM »
One thing about bunkers that I hate is having a 6" vertical "edge" behind your ball when it's near the "back" of the bunker.   I know it's a hazard, but I'm not a fan of an almost unplayable lie becuase I don't have a backswing.   I think I found myself in this sitation 3 or 4 times at Pete Dye GC this summer. 

Is that design, or maintenance?  I've often wondered...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Bunker Depth
« Reply #79 on: December 18, 2008, 09:01:03 PM »
Melvyn:

You are just too doctrinaire for me.

I don't want every bunker to have the SAME penalty value.  I want them to have different degrees of toughness, so a player in the fairway might actually think about which bunker he prefers to go in!  That will mess with his mind and get him thinking about the wrong shot.

By the same token, I don't mind if there are a couple of bunkers on the course where putting out of the bunker could be an effective play.  Because, as the quote from George Thomas was supposed to point out, in that case being IN the bunker doesn't cost you too much, but being wide of it might mean a difficult pitch over it to a short pin.

A very narrow bunker also serves the same purpose ... like the bunker to the right of the first green at Muirfield.  It can't be more than 5 feet across ... inexpensive to build but plenty effective.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Bunker Depth
« Reply #80 on: December 18, 2008, 10:26:16 PM »

Tom

I will be the first to agree that I am no course designer or for that matter a good golfer, but I know what I like and I am happy to voice my opinion.

I believe that it all stems from the way we have been introduced to the game, how that was conveyed and the way over the years we have managed our game.  As one with no work requirements to adjust my approach to the game or forced compromise due to budget constraints, I have maintained that which first brought me into golf.

Although you and your colleagues design the courses, bunkers, etc, if the after care (maintenance) is not up to the job the state of the bunkers diminish to the extent that shallow bunkers no longer trap the ball upon certain approaches. Pray tell me what is the point of that trap - if you could call it a trap. I don’t hold designers responsible for the maintenance of a course but any potential problems should I believe be eliminated or at least flagged up and resolved unless you receive a dispensation from the client. That I would have thought would have been covered under “good working practices” code.

I believe that your statement “You are just too doctrinaire for me” would be better addressed to your clients as they seem to have the final say based perhaps on the fact that they are the paymasters. I am presuming that they are interested enough to understand what you are actually trying to achieve on their behalf.

My comments are just my opinions and as you are aware I am very concerned that sites are on many occasions “not fit for purpose”. I know the excuse that good sites are hard to find but don’t you think that golf courses should be challenging and not just another 5-6 hour ride through the country.

I understand your position, but I like deep bunkers, I see them as a double challenge and if caught in one will look at all options to escape including side or rear shots.

Melvyn


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Depth
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2008, 05:12:37 AM »
Putt from a bunker?  Sure, if the fool doesn't know how to use a wedge.  I can't think of many things golf related I don't ever want to see.

Dan

Your complaint about bunkers is one of the flaws with pot bunkers, but it wouldn't be so bad if there weren't 100 opportunities.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing