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John Moore II

Interesting - Driver heads are freakin' huge and balls go a mile, but they are focusing on clubs that give you touch around the green?

I bet more (notice I did not say all) amateurs are confused using a 4 or 5 wedge system - 48/52/56/60/64 - than are helped. The USGA might be doing some of us a favor?

Don't forget the 47/50/51/53/54/55...etc wedges that you can buy as well. I think Cleveland in the 588 series makes about a dozen different lofts. When I still carried 2-PW, I only had 2 other wedges, 52 and 58. I might go back to that and get a 4 iron again.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
One problem is that forged clubs bend through play, and the loft of a 56 could bend to a 57 without the player's knowledge.  Tough way to get DQ'ed.

The better players will adjust most easily.  Decent players who are skilled with the lob wedge will be most punished.

I would be tempted to take an extra 56 and grind the bounce down to about three degrees so I could open the face up.

Will that's exactly what they'll do.
The USGA can't figure out that drivers and balls are the problem.
God these guys are asleep at the wheel.
So if I survive with a great short game and creativity and use multiple wedges I'm going to punished but the wind tunnel geeks and bombers are going to continue to buy length (and make your driver obsolete every other year)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Moore II

One problem is that forged clubs bend through play, and the loft of a 56 could bend to a 57 without the player's knowledge.  Tough way to get DQ'ed.

The better players will adjust most easily.  Decent players who are skilled with the lob wedge will be most punished.

I would be tempted to take an extra 56 and grind the bounce down to about three degrees so I could open the face up.

Will that's exactly what they'll do.
The USGA can't figure out that drivers and balls are the problem.
God these guys are asleep at the wheel.
So if I survive with a great short game and creativity and use multiple wedges I'm going to punished but the wind tunnel geeks and bombers are going to continue to buy length (and make your driver obsolete every other year)

But what else can they regulate on the driver? The limit Coefficient of Restitution, they limit Moment of Intertia, the limit length. How much else can be limited? I have read that they are considering limiting COR over the whole face (currently it is only the center of the face, IIRC). But there is only so much they can limit. And they limit head dimensions side to side and front to back and of course total head displacement. The more you regulate, the more money Callaway, Taylor Made, and the rest will pump into R&D to max them out over and over again. 

I think they need to just stop worrying about everything. You ever hear how they came up with the .830 COR? The Ping TiSi was the 'hottest' face driver at the time, the USGA didn't want to make any existing driver illegal, the Ping had COR of .830, so guess what the final number was?

I think making the COR be .830 over the whole face will do a lot. Because right now, the real sweet spot on the driver is above the centerline of the face. That location maximizes launch angle and minimizes spin. So, make the COR .830 there (there is a reason for these Inverted Cone and Hyperbolic faces) and you'll change the whole driver.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think once they go to the new grooves, the 64 degree wedges and such might not be as good as they are now. I had a friend who used to work for Pelz and he said that the reason the original Pelz wedges had different grooves was to make the spin rates the same through the whole set. The PW as V groove, the SW was U groove, and the X wedge (64) was the deep wide box groove. He also said that in the very high lofts, a wedge like a 64 with V grooves will spin far less than a PW with V grooves. Downward angle of contact and such. So other than getting the ball to start with a very high launch angle, the 64 would become somewhat useless if they go to a smaller groove.

BTW, I'd carry a 64 if I could figure out another club to take out of the bag. Yep, I'd carry 5 wedges.
John, with respect, I don't think that had anything to do with the inherent ability of wedges of increasing loft angles to produce spin.  Pelz's thinking, I am quite sure (and I do hope you'll check me with your Pelz-associate friend) is that players take increasingly more-full swings with PW, than SW and and LW, and that is the reason for varying groove dimensions/treatments.

Indeed, Bob Vokey and Titleist didn't originally make their "Spin Milled" grooves available on wedges over 54-56 degrees loft, because those lower-lofted wedges, hit more fully, put ridiculous amounts of spin on the ball.  You basically needed the help from square grooves on little half-swings and touch shots.  (Voke has been expanding the Spin Milled groove availability, due to customer demand, not becuase it makes real sense.)

As a matter of physics, all things being equal, more loft just equals more spin.

John Moore II

I think once they go to the new grooves, the 64 degree wedges and such might not be as good as they are now. I had a friend who used to work for Pelz and he said that the reason the original Pelz wedges had different grooves was to make the spin rates the same through the whole set. The PW as V groove, the SW was U groove, and the X wedge (64) was the deep wide box groove. He also said that in the very high lofts, a wedge like a 64 with V grooves will spin far less than a PW with V grooves. Downward angle of contact and such. So other than getting the ball to start with a very high launch angle, the 64 would become somewhat useless if they go to a smaller groove.

BTW, I'd carry a 64 if I could figure out another club to take out of the bag. Yep, I'd carry 5 wedges.
John, with respect, I don't think that had anything to do with the inherent ability of wedges of increasing loft angles to produce spin.  Pelz's thinking, I am quite sure (and I do hope you'll check me with your Pelz-associate friend) is that players take increasingly more-full swings with PW, than SW and and LW, and that is the reason for varying groove dimensions/treatments.

Indeed, Bob Vokey and Titleist didn't originally make their "Spin Milled" grooves available on wedges over 54-56 degrees loft, because those lower-lofted wedges, hit more fully, put ridiculous amounts of spin on the ball.  You basically needed the help from square grooves on little half-swings and touch shots.  (Voke has been expanding the Spin Milled groove availability, due to customer demand, not becuase it makes real sense.)

As a matter of physics, all things being equal, more loft just equals more spin.

Well, only the top edge of the groove imparts spin. Yeah, you are right, in a PW those box grooves would tear the cover off the ball and put 10000 RPM of spin on the ball. But think about it. With a V groove on a 64 degree wedge, the groove angle is almost nothing and would put very little spin on the ball when struck. I know he did say that the reason they put the V grooves in the PW and so forth was to keep the total spin the same through each set. But I am fairly certain that with V grooves (I can't remember our converstation exactly from a year ago) a 64 degree wedge will spin far less, almost to the point that there is 'no' spin. Yes, a 64 spins more than a 48, if only as a product of going higher (which the height greatly contributes to it 'sticking' better), but with V grooves, the 64 puts so little spin on the ball that it wouldn't be nearly the tool that it is now with the deep box grooves.

BTW, Callaway now puts the MD grooves in all their X Tour wedges, from the 48 down to the 64.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
One problem is that forged clubs bend through play, and the loft of a 56 could bend to a 57 without the player's knowledge.  Tough way to get DQ'ed.

The better players will adjust most easily.  Decent players who are skilled with the lob wedge will be most punished.

I would be tempted to take an extra 56 and grind the bounce down to about three degrees so I could open the face up.

Will that's exactly what they'll do.
The USGA can't figure out that drivers and balls are the problem.
God these guys are asleep at the wheel.
So if I survive with a great short game and creativity and use multiple wedges I'm going to punished but the wind tunnel geeks and bombers are going to continue to buy length (and make your driver obsolete every other year)

But what else can they regulate on the driver? The limit Coefficient of Restitution, they limit Moment of Intertia, the limit length. How much else can be limited? I have read that they are considering limiting COR over the whole face (currently it is only the center of the face, IIRC). But there is only so much they can limit. And they limit head dimensions side to side and front to back and of course total head displacement. The more you regulate, the more money Callaway, Taylor Made, and the rest will pump into R&D to max them out over and over again. 

I think they need to just stop worrying about everything. You ever hear how they came up with the .830 COR? The Ping TiSi was the 'hottest' face driver at the time, the USGA didn't want to make any existing driver illegal, the Ping had COR of .830, so guess what the final number was?

I think making the COR be .830 over the whole face will do a lot. Because right now, the real sweet spot on the driver is above the centerline of the face. That location maximizes launch angle and minimizes spin. So, make the COR .830 there (there is a reason for these Inverted Cone and Hyperbolic faces) and you'll change the whole driver.
John, my view is that the USGA missed the boat on drivers.  Thanks (or no thanks, as the case may be) to Frank Thomas, the former Technical Director who proclaimed, back when the newest drivers were less than 360cc, that head size was rapidly reaching a point of diminishing returns.  He was wrong, and he did not foresee what additional technologies (springlike faces and Higher MoI) would accompany very high-volume drivers.
A reasonable restriction on drivers (remember when we all thought that the Biggest Big Bertha looked like a toaster on a stick?) back then might have made much of the later, incomprehensible regulatory efforts (CoR, then CT, and MoI) unneccessary.
In my view, clubs with heads bigger than about 360cc start to not look like golf clubs anymore.

Still, golf balls are the truly perverse element in the golfer/shaft/clubhead/ball equation.  The ball is the cheapest thing, the least interesting thing, the most replaceable, fungible thing in the entire equation.  And, in my view, it is the one thing that has most contributed to startling distance gains among elites, with no equivalent benefit to recreational players.

(Looking at tour players' stats, the simplest executive summary of distance gains are that there have been great big bursts of increasing distance gains when the Pro V was introduced, and improved.  With no significant new ball developments in the last three years or so, distance gains have flattened.  Some people interpret those numbers to mean, "There is no problem.  The distance explosion seems to have stopped."  I interpret those numbers to mean, "The problem is nicely defined; it's the ball, stupid.")
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:06:13 PM by Chuck Brown »

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0


BTW, Callaway now puts the MD grooves in all their X Tour wedges, from the 48 down to the 64.
I know that, John.  And, as you might well agree, they didn't make those offerings initially.  Roger Cleveland and Bob Vokey think it is kind of nutty to offer aggressive square grooves in 48-degree wedges that get hit full quite often.
If you follow the equipment message-boards, all the kids wanted Mack Daddy grooves in everything from their Pitching Wedges to their toothbrushes.  And so the marketing departments got the products that would sell, apparently.
Anyway, it is only my assumption, but I think that the USGA is doing all of this posturing on wedge lofts to combat what they think might be a popular reaction to next-generation groove limitations and balls.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:07:30 PM by Chuck Brown »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
One problem is that forged clubs bend through play, and the loft of a 56 could bend to a 57 without the player's knowledge.  Tough way to get DQ'ed.

The better players will adjust most easily.  Decent players who are skilled with the lob wedge will be most punished.

I would be tempted to take an extra 56 and grind the bounce down to about three degrees so I could open the face up.

Will that's exactly what they'll do.
The USGA can't figure out that drivers and balls are the problem.
God these guys are asleep at the wheel.
So if I survive with a great short game and creativity and use multiple wedges I'm going to punished but the wind tunnel geeks and bombers are going to continue to buy length (and make your driver obsolete every other year)

But what else can they regulate on the driver? The limit Coefficient of Restitution, they limit Moment of Intertia, the limit length. How much else can be limited? I have read that they are considering limiting COR over the whole face (currently it is only the center of the face, IIRC). But there is only so much they can limit. And they limit head dimensions side to side and front to back and of course total head displacement. The more you regulate, the more money Callaway, Taylor Made, and the rest will pump into R&D to max them out over and over again. 

I think they need to just stop worrying about everything. You ever hear how they came up with the .830 COR? The Ping TiSi was the 'hottest' face driver at the time, the USGA didn't want to make any existing driver illegal, the Ping had COR of .830, so guess what the final number was?

I think making the COR be .830 over the whole face will do a lot. Because right now, the real sweet spot on the driver is above the centerline of the face. That location maximizes launch angle and minimizes spin. So, make the COR .830 there (there is a reason for these Inverted Cone and Hyperbolic faces) and you'll change the whole driver.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
One problem is that forged clubs bend through play, and the loft of a 56 could bend to a 57 without the player's knowledge.  Tough way to get DQ'ed.

The better players will adjust most easily.  Decent players who are skilled with the lob wedge will be most punished.

I would be tempted to take an extra 56 and grind the bounce down to about three degrees so I could open the face up.

Will that's exactly what they'll do.
The USGA can't figure out that drivers and balls are the problem.
God these guys are asleep at the wheel.
So if I survive with a great short game and creativity and use multiple wedges I'm going to punished but the wind tunnel geeks and bombers are going to continue to buy length (and make your driver obsolete every other year)

But what else can they regulate on the driver? The limit Coefficient of Restitution, they limit Moment of Intertia, the limit length. How much else can be limited? I have read that they are considering limiting COR over the whole face (currently it is only the center of the face, IIRC). But there is only so much they can limit. And they limit head dimensions side to side and front to back and of course total head displacement. The more you regulate, the more money Callaway, Taylor Made, and the rest will pump into R&D to max them out over and over again. 

I think they need to just stop worrying about everything. You ever hear how they came up with the .830 COR? The Ping TiSi was the 'hottest' face driver at the time, the USGA didn't want to make any existing driver illegal, the Ping had COR of .830, so guess what the final number was?

I think making the COR be .830 over the whole face will do a lot. Because right now, the real sweet spot on the driver is above the centerline of the face. That location maximizes launch angle and minimizes spin. So, make the COR .830 there (there is a reason for these Inverted Cone and Hyperbolic faces) and you'll change the whole driver.

John,
I'm not a scientist but....
"What else can they regulate?"
don't regulate--change
they can reduce the size of the head
they can lower COR (trampoline effect-just what golf needed)
they can make a ball that goes shorter...
grooves and loft aren't what changed this game and caused needless lengthening for Championship venues and in turn clubs following suit

I'm 45 and I hit it 30 yards farther than I did when I was 25-
You might say so what, but at the highest level guys with skill ripping it obscene distances have made most courses drivers and wedges=boring and then to combat this most courses have responded with length, more hazards, and narrower fairways
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Moore II

A change in the ball would do more than change in the driver. Go back to Tour Balata golf balls and you'll see a big roll back in distance. Far more than changing the COR to .800 or something like that.

Rich Goodale

They will have to rip my Hippo 64 degree wedge from my cold dying hands....

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Isn't the average handicap in the US at the same place it was 20 years ago? Thought I saw that stat on one of the GCA threads a little while ago?

I think technology should be limited - heads are to big, balls go too far, etc. etc. but, apparently, evidence shows that none of this new techonology really matters to the average golfer.

Now if they regulated the PGA - 250cc heads, Balata Tour Balls, V Grooves, etc. - it would be a lot more interesting to watch . . .

TEPaul

On some reflection, I feel any thought to ban loft on wedges over say 60 degrees is somewhat muddle-headed on the part of the I&B authorities. They should be concentrating on shots that go too far and not shots that go very short!  ;)

I use my 64 degree wedge all the time and I love it. It provides maximum "fun factor." What's wrong with being able to take a full swing and hit the ball less than ten yards on a green side recovery shot? Maybe the USGA/R&A has become excessively concerned about the health and well-being of my chin. If that's what this is all about I think that's kinda cute on their part but I'm more than willing to take full responsibility for my chin and head being hit by a vertically rising golf ball.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0

Now if they regulated the PGA - 250cc heads, Balata Tour Balls, V Grooves, etc. - it would be a lot more interesting to watch . . .

This is a point of view I would be curious to explore...how do television ratings compare today versus 25 years ago?

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Doesn't make any sense to me for a myriad of reasons:

1) you can open or close the clubface without physically modfiying the clubhead.

2) Isn't it all about the shortgame? Teachers have been saying all along, just hit the fairway and you'll see the most improvement in your scoring by working on the short game. Now they want to make it harder?

3) The issues are with the ball, not the clubs.

****I still stand by my suggestion to fix the ball.****

Don't go to one standard set of specs... use an equation that allows ball makers to adjust spin, feel and distance but at the sacrifice of another attribute. Similar to the 12 meter rule in sailing.  Would allow ball manufacturers to improvise and develop unique balls for the market but ensure that the advantage provided (ex: distance) also creates a disadvantage (lack of spin around greens).

Sam Morrow

I would love to get Ari's stance on this issue, I think he is our resident wedge expert.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0

Well, only the top edge of the groove imparts spin. Yeah, you are right, in a PW those box grooves would tear the cover off the ball and put 10000 RPM of spin on the ball. But think about it. With a V groove on a 64 degree wedge, the groove angle is almost nothing and would put very little spin on the ball when struck. I know he did say that the reason they put the V grooves in the PW and so forth was to keep the total spin the same through each set. But I am fairly certain that with V grooves (I can't remember our converstation exactly from a year ago) a 64 degree wedge will spin far less, almost to the point that there is 'no' spin. Yes, a 64 spins more than a 48, if only as a product of going higher (which the height greatly contributes to it 'sticking' better), but with V grooves, the 64 puts so little spin on the ball that it wouldn't be nearly the tool that it is now with the deep box grooves.

BTW, Callaway now puts the MD grooves in all their X Tour wedges, from the 48 down to the 64.

John,

I believe you have a misconception on spin generation. The biggest factor in contributing to spin is the amount of time the ball stays on the club face. The higher the loft of the club, the more the spin.

The advantage of u and box shaped grooves is not so much the sharpness of the edge of the groove, but the volume of material they will hold. The more volume of grass they can hold, the more exposed club face is available to spin the ball.

What is amazing here is that the Pro V spins approximately what the Balata balls did off the scoring clubs. With these modifications to wedges, they are trying to control the spin off the scoring clubs.

The ball's spin off the driver is what brought the complaints about there being a problem. So for those writing "it's the ball stupid", I would modify that to it's the ball spin off the driver stupid.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim Sullivan,
TV ratings for the Masters:
 
Average Weekend Viewers for The Masters Golf Tournament, 1977-2007:

1977- 7.8*
1978- 10.1
1979- 10.5
1980 -missing
1981 - 10.4
1982 - 10.4 
1983- 9.2
1984 -7.9 
1985 -8.8
1986-  8.3
1987 -10.5
1988-  8.4
1989- 10.5
1990- 11.0
1991- 10.2
1992- 8.9
1993- 7.9
1994- 8.7
1995- 10.2
1996- 10.2
1997- 15.8 -Tiger (over 20 mil on Sunday alone)
1998 -12.4
1999- 10.6 
2000- 10.1
2001- 15.0 -Tiger
2002- 11.4 -Tiger
2003- 9.5
2004- 10.3
2005- 11.8 -Tiger
2006- 9.9
2007- 11.9
2008- 11.0

*average per day, in millions, for the weekend 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the tee a PROV1(or similar) has the same spin rate as a solid core Top-Flite golf ball from the 80s, with better performance in all the other categories .  In the 80s, accuracy off the tee was a greater indicator of who made it to the top of the money list, and who didn't. That's not true today.

I'd say the USGA is headed in the right direction. Bringing the grooves back in line (shameless pun) and limiting loft is a good start to forcing players at the top levels of the game to focus more on accuracy, i.e. bomb and gouge won't be such an appealing strategy. That alone might not address the distance issue, but I think it leads the way for the re-introduction of higher spinning balls that fly shorter, mainly at higher swing speeds.
It could be to a win/win situation:
-If the finesse players on tour, ones with clout, asked their respective ball suppliers for one, it would soon exist. Every major manufacturer would soon have their own version.      
-Leading to a whole new market segment for manufacturers, good (and not so good) amateurs players will want to play these balls.
-Which leads to the possibility that individual Tour events might then be willing require this type of ball for their tournament. If all the big boys are making these balls then there should be little trouble doing this. No bifurcation of the rules will be needed.
-Clubs might be able to leave their courses alone because distance will roll back 'naturally'. Other's may even be able to shorten a few holes. All the 'old' and short places that we'd like to see again might get a 'second chance'.

This is either a great flanking manuever on the part of the USGA, or it's a concerted effort with manufacturers and theTour. A series of moves that  save face for everyone concerned as they deal with the issues that we, and they, know will eventually kill the golden goose if they aren't addressed.

Smart play.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 12:42:37 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Matt_Ward

Gents:

It's so inane -- the USGA is possibly going to limit the loft area -- but you still have the LONG putter -- makes perfext sense to me.

What about just dropping the total number of clubs you have from 14 to 12?

That way the player has to decide what to keep and what to eliminate.

Sam Morrow

Gents:

It's so inane -- the USGA is possibly going to limit the loft area -- but you still have the LONG putter -- makes perfext sense to me.

What about just dropping the total number of clubs you have from 14 to 12?

That way the player has to decide what to keep and what to eliminate.

Matt I think dropping down to 12 clubs would be a great idea.

TEPaul

Garland:

It seems to me we've all been through all this technical stuff a few years ago on here. I believe I agree with you (from what I've been able to gather from the tech guys, including the USGA Tech Center) but whatever is going on with the new age balls (probably mostly low spin rate for the big hitters) the truth seems to be whether it's mostly the ball or some combination of new age ball and new age clubs the golf ball at the same MPH (the best representation is at about the ODS test protocol (120)) is capable of carrying so much farther (probably due to its new age trajectory compared to the old trajectory with high MPH golfers) than it used to. They tell me that new age trajectory at the SAME MPH (120 or even around the old ODS protocol of 109) produces around 30-35 yards more carry distance.

Years ago I believe they used to have some kind of display diorama that essentially indicated the same vast differences in carry distance between the spectrum of these different trajectories.

Now, in my opinion, what it technically is that produces these two very different trajectories, particularly for high swing speed players, is precisely where a solution to the distance increase thing in recent years can probably be found if that's even what the regulatory bodies have in mind in the future with I&B.

It seems to me, as I've said many times before on here, while it may not be the entire solution one really significant factor of it would be for the regulatory bodies to add a sixth regulation to ball conformance which would essentially be a new limitation on MINIMUM spin rate!  ;)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:09:55 PM by TEPaul »

John Moore II


Well, only the top edge of the groove imparts spin. Yeah, you are right, in a PW those box grooves would tear the cover off the ball and put 10000 RPM of spin on the ball. But think about it. With a V groove on a 64 degree wedge, the groove angle is almost nothing and would put very little spin on the ball when struck. I know he did say that the reason they put the V grooves in the PW and so forth was to keep the total spin the same through each set. But I am fairly certain that with V grooves (I can't remember our converstation exactly from a year ago) a 64 degree wedge will spin far less, almost to the point that there is 'no' spin. Yes, a 64 spins more than a 48, if only as a product of going higher (which the height greatly contributes to it 'sticking' better), but with V grooves, the 64 puts so little spin on the ball that it wouldn't be nearly the tool that it is now with the deep box grooves.

BTW, Callaway now puts the MD grooves in all their X Tour wedges, from the 48 down to the 64.

John,

I believe you have a misconception on spin generation. The biggest factor in contributing to spin is the amount of time the ball stays on the club face. The higher the loft of the club, the more the spin.

The advantage of u and box shaped grooves is not so much the sharpness of the edge of the groove, but the volume of material they will hold. The more volume of grass they can hold, the more exposed club face is available to spin the ball.

What is amazing here is that the Pro V spins approximately what the Balata balls did off the scoring clubs. With these modifications to wedges, they are trying to control the spin off the scoring clubs.

The ball's spin off the driver is what brought the complaints about there being a problem. So for those writing "it's the ball stupid", I would modify that to it's the ball spin off the driver stupid.


The ball doesn't 'stick' to the clubface on any club. At contact, it jumps off the face within a millisecond of contact no matter which club you use. Balls don't roll up the face or any other nonsense like that. You want proof? Look here, two videos. Tell me if the ball 'sticks' to the face on either of these.

Boo with a Wedge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MlhxXKTjMg

Tiger with an iron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqsf4bEBF-Q

Tiger with a driver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPJtK-DxnV4

OK, you tell me if the ball sticks to the face. It doesn't. Spin is created by the downward contact of the grooves to the ball. Try to hit 'up' on a ball high on a tee with a wedge, I bet it spins far less than a wedge struck crisply with a downward blow. Higher lofted clubs impart more spin because the loft launches the ball higher, the shorter shaft allows for a steeper swing, and the grooves tend to be more U shaped than grooves on a 5 iron. I know on my old Hogan Apex irons the long irons had V grooves and the short irons had U grooves.

If you think the golf ball sticks to the face of the club for more than .001 seconds after impact, you're just wrong.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:14:20 PM by John K. Moore »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...
If you think the golf ball sticks to the face of the club for more than .001 seconds after impact, you're just wrong.

John,

I'm just telling you what the USGA has reported. Perhaps it would be instructive to think about hitting a ping pong ball with one of those old sandpaper faced paddles. How do you get the ball to spin? You "loft" the paddle.

EDIT: Another thing to think about is grooveless driver heads. How is it possible to slice a drive with one? People can slice the ball with one, so what is the function of grooves?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:26:20 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

...
If you think the golf ball sticks to the face of the club for more than .001 seconds after impact, you're just wrong.

John,

I'm just telling you what the USGA has reported. Perhaps it would be instructive to think about hitting a ping pong ball with one of those old sandpaper faced paddles. How do you get the ball to spin? You "loft" the paddle.


The USGA reports that the ball sticks to the face of the club? Better show me that report. Yeah, a ping pong paddle will spin the little ball when you 'loft' the paddle. Why? DOWNWARD CONTACT. WOW  :o :o :o  The face is moving on a downward angle in relation to the path of the ball. You strike 'down' on the ball, the ball goes up with spin. It works the same with tennis and racquet ball. The motion has to be downward to maximize spin.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...Yeah, a ping pong paddle will spin the little ball when you 'loft' the paddle. Why? DOWNWARD CONTACT. WOW  :o :o :o  The face is moving on a downward angle in relation to the path of the ball. ...

Think about it John. That is the analog of using a lofted club!

Since the club head is alway moving in pretty much the same direction, you add loft to it.
Since the ping pong paddle always has the same loft, you move it in a different direction.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne