How do you prefer to tip?

[Tim Bert]

Do you think it is any less insensitive to refer to great clubs like MPCC with a no-tipping policy as communistic than it is to refer to cart boys that don't make an earnest effort in their attempt to clean clubs as squeegee guys?  Not to mention I'm not certain you really understand communism.

Read what I have said.  I have never said these clubs are "communistic". 

Fair enough.  I honestly intended to type "Do you think it is any less insensitive to refer to THE POLICIES OF great clubs like MPCC with a no-tipping policy as communistic."


I don't think operating a service operation without tips is communistic.  I worked in retail for a couple years, focused on customer service.  I didn't work for tips.  Our setup wasn't communistic.  There was a very clear hierarchy and class structure, just as I suspect there is at clubs with no-tip policies.  Those who hustled the most got the best raises, the best rewards, and the best shots at long-term promotion (if that's what they wanted.)  The MPCC system sounds like a pretty darn good one that provides all kinds of incentives for hard work.  

I don't disagree with that.  Let me be clear, regardless of previous posts.  This is what I am trying to say...  I simply find it humorous that people that have been very supportive of capitalist ideals prefer a much more utopian environment at a golf course.  That's all I was trying to draw a comparison with "communism" to.


jeff F.

Got it. 

Understand that all I'm trying to say is that I both lean to the right on economic policy and I'm also in favor of a no-tipping policy when it comes to the cart staff.  I'd rather have my round of golf raised $2-$5 per round and have that money go directly to the attendants than to deal with the inconvenience or awkward situation where I'm caught with no cash and left scrambling (and risk having it viewed "an excuse for a cheap guy" as has been tossd around here.)

I don't see a conflict at all in capitalism and a no-tipping policy, for the reasons and incentives I described above.  If, as you stated, some of the guys are in it for the free golf, then I'd say just keeping the job ought to be reason enough to hustle for the wage being earned.  It's a nice perk that doesn't come with my job.

While I didn't think in any way you were referring to me as one of the "hypocrites" because I wasn't involved in the political thread, I just wanted you to understand how someone might reasonably stand up for both of these positions.  I don't view it as hypocritical.

[Andy Troeger]

I'm curious for those who've worked in these kinds of jobs...

There are three people outside working on staging carts and taking care of customers. Do they add everything up at the end of the shift and split tips evenly, or does everyone keep what they made?

At the course I worked at during college we split tips. So many of you are saying you want to tip the staff member who gave you great service, but I wonder if you realize you're also tipping someone else you don't even see. It makes sense, because the guy cleaning carts might be working just as hard as the one helping you, but I'm curious if this is the way things normally work, and if this affects anyone's outlook on the topic.

If splitting tips is the norm, having that "tip jar" makes a heck of a lot more sense to me. I agree these folks deserve to be compensated, but for someone like me who doesn't normally carry much cash its inconvenient to have to go to an ATM and find some place to break larger bills just to have cash in my pocket so that I can play golf.  Don't get me wrong, I go do it, but it sure seems like there's a better way.

[Carl Nichols]

Andy:
It's been almost 20 years since I worked at a private club, but it depended on the situation.  We would pool tips for events (like a member-guest) where there were lots of players arriving at the same time and everyone was hustling around for a relatively short period of time.  On a regular old day, we wouldn't pool. 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike G:

Get real -- please.

Talk about "pathetic" -- how about your lame reasoning which is so utterly transparent.

Here's what YOU said ... "you are made to feel uncomfortable about declining these services."

First thing first -- who makes you "uncomfortable" -- Mike is it so tough as to look someone in the eye and just say "no" to the services you don't want? Oh, I see -- you think that automatically lends itself to "confrontation" of some sort or another through "dirty looks."

I guess you find direct communication to be "uncomfortable."

Mike, geeze I never knew that anyone "who has ever worked with or for me knows that is the farthest thing from the truth imaginable." Really. You say you are being "accosted" -- hey Mike, wake up -- march up to the management office and say so. You belittle the guy on the front line -- he's doing what Jeff has said upteeeeeen times is expected of him. You want to shoot the messenger as the villian. That's sound logic no doubt on your part.

You make the cavalier broad brush assumption that any comments from the customer will spark "confrontation." Mike, I love your approach to people -- I'd be sure to avoid you if I saw you driving in the parking lot.

Tim:

With all due respect ... Are you serious or what?

Do you tip at McDonald's?

Do you tip the gate agent who take your boarding pass when you board a plane? Do you tip the gal / guy who brings you coffee or chips when you're on a plane?

Tim, I see the connection at a golf facility to be a far different animal and worthy of being acknowledged financially when exceptional personalized service occurs.

Andy:

Carl said it quite accurately --  but there are people who have direct contact with the customers -- those are the ones who would benefit from such a tip when earned.

[David_Elvins]

FYI -- for what it's worth -- an exceptional caddie should receive a tip that is half the carry rate for 18 holes. If the fee is $60 -- the tip would be half that.......I never said I tip more than the other guy........Tips should be rewarded because of exceptional service. I never said people with mediocre or poor customer service should get a tip.........tips are not automatic and no service provider should make such an assumption. They need to earn it and show it consistently.......I don't think people should tip simply out of courtesy -- it's from exceptional service that is above and beyond being just average.

c'mon again let's be straightforward and nuff of this silly tap dance rationale -- you have plenty of cheap people who hide behind all the defenses and excuses they can muster. Let's stop the denial game -- shall we? The "no tip rule" is simply inserted to provide diplomatic cover for such out of touch folks -- the equality rationale is simply nothing more than a convenient defense gimmick and is easily seen as such.

Matt Ward,

I am wondering what the biggest excuse for cheapness is, the people who follow the no tip rule (but belong to clubs that have a higher service component in their dues) or the people who follow the "I only tip for exceptional service" rule. 

Its all very well to call people all sorts of names but it would appear from your comments  that some members of clubs with no-tip policies would actually contribute more to the staff (through higher wages, christmas funds etc) than you do through your very selective tipping policy.  I am not saying there is anything wrong with a selective tipping policy but there is one thing it definiely doesn't do is excuse you from being a tightwad yourself.

[Chris Kane]

David, it may be that Matt Ward prefers the selective tipping policy because it gives him the opportunity to big-note himself.

[Gary Slatter]

a cash tip goes to the person deserving the tip.  automatic grats added to a bill go anywhere, and have no impact.

[Mike Golden]

Mike G:

Get real -- please.

Talk about "pathetic" -- how about your lame reasoning which is so utterly transparent.

Here's what YOU said ... "you are made to feel uncomfortable about declining these services."

First thing first -- who makes you "uncomfortable" -- Mike is it so tough as to look someone in the eye and just say "no" to the services you don't want? Oh, I see -- you think that automatically lends itself to "confrontation" of some sort or another through "dirty looks."

I guess you find direct communication to be "uncomfortable."

Mike, geeze I never knew that anyone "who has ever worked with or for me knows that is the farthest thing from the truth imaginable." Really. You say you are being "accosted" -- hey Mike, wake up -- march up to the management office and say so. You belittle the guy on the front line -- he's doing what Jeff has said upteeeeeen times is expected of him. You want to shoot the messenger as the villian. That's sound logic no doubt on your part.

You make the cavalier broad brush assumption that any comments from the customer will spark "confrontation." Mike, I love your approach to people -- I'd be sure to avoid you if I saw you driving in the parking lot.

Tim:

With all due respect ... Are you serious or what?

Do you tip at McDonald's?

Do you tip the gate agent who take your boarding pass when you board a plane? Do you tip the gal / guy who brings you coffee or chips when you're on a plane?

Tim, I see the connection at a golf facility to be a far different animal and worthy of being acknowledged financially when exceptional personalized service occurs.

Andy:

Carl said it quite accurately --  but there are people who have direct contact with the customers -- those are the ones who would benefit from such a tip when earned.

Matt Ward, you will regret the day you chose to insult me, be prepared for a public humiliation on this DG.  By the time I finish listing everything you have pulled on so many golf courses around the country you will be begging for mercy, asshole.

So how much did you tip your caddy at Sleepy Hollow, big shot?

How did you manage to forget to leave the tip for the service people at the Metropolitan Golf Writers Association outing?

I'm not finished...

[Tom Naccarato]

I hate this thread. Mostly because it makes some look like complete idiots.

When I go to a restaurant, I try to tip as much as I can afford as possible. When I go to a Golf Course, I always ask the host what is acceptable and then add more to it. But this is why I don't care for utilizing a caddie--I don't need anyone reading putts for me; I don't like anyone touching my clubs or my stuff, let alone clean them. I've had caddies lose stuff, or in some cases rip it off. Some Mexican caddie down in Matazalan, well he shields himself during the rainy season with my very expensive golf umbrella. He actually took money out of my wallet which was in my bag. But I will say this, I  love having a caddie when it comes to playing a great place where they have personality--like at Pine Valley or The Old Course or NGLA or Friar's Head--where great effort has been made to have caddies that aren't just good, but also have personality.

Simply put, I completely understand what Mike Golden is saying--and Mike is one of the all-time good guys by the way--and I've never known him to NOT leave an excellent tip at some of the great restaurants we've been too in our time as friends.

See this thread is ridiculous. Calling out Mike Golden as a cheap skate? (Matt, I think thats what your doing) Well, please.....Where is the love?  Matt, I think you owe Mike an apology before it gets really ugly.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy N:

I never called out Mike G as cheap or any other specific person. I simply responded to his comments -- as did others -- Jeff F as well.

Here is my first post to Mike ... (in the event you missed it)

"How are you made to be "uncomfortable." Do you have any backbone and just say, "no thank you." Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want then people should respect that and let it go at that. I think part of the problem is that certain people have a difficulty in looking people in the eye and saying so."

His response back to me was that my aforementioned comment was "pathetic."

Apologize for what. I was told my comments were "pathetic." How bout people read what is written -- rather than twist things into other matters that were not said.

It was Mike who went further and said in the broadest terms that people "accost" him at the course with such services, and that he is made to feel "uncomfortable." Jeff F responded that those situations can and do occur but the prevalence is more towards the minority than the majority. I agree with Jeff's reply.

Mike went further that such people provide a "usual dirty look" when told not to touch their clubs. I responded if service people respond in such a way that the customer should let management know because their business is just as important as others. Mike did change his comment to "disdain" and I would simply say the same thing -- let management know if one's day at the course is lessened.

I just thing it's important not to paint with the broadest of brushes -- on either side.

Mike G:

Let's remember you began by personalizing this by calling my comments "pathetic" in the first place and now with the word "asshole."

Let's rewind the tape shall we from this thread and earlier posts ...

Here's what I said -- you said people who come up to you to clean your clubs make you feel "uncomfortable." I simply stated, as Jeff F said upteen times that you can just as easily decline their services and go about your merry way.

You then said such people provide you with "usual dirty look." Jeff F answered you that in his total experiences that's a minority of cases. I also opined that should personnel treat you in such a way it would be best to let management know of this.  You go further by saying such people "accost" you. Again, my response was to have some backbone and let the appropriate people know what is happening so that no such situation happens again.

You then called my comments to you as being "pathetic." I can certainly agree with you that you don't want "confrontation" but there's ways to deal with that should it happen.

I answered your comments ... in regards to Sleepy Hollow please feel free to add whatever it is you wish to create. I was present at the start of a MGWA club demo presentation but could not stay for the duration of the day. I guess I should tip people for just such a limited appearance. Mea culpa on my part.

Mike, you say I "insulted" you -- if that's what you believe then I apologize to you because the spirit of the holidays is far more important than continuing on with the invective that's been thrown my way.

If you want to add other comments -- so be it.

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

With all due respect ... Are you serious or what?

Do you tip at McDonald's?

Do you tip the gate agent who take your boarding pass when you board a plane? Do you tip the gal / guy who brings you coffee or chips when you're on a plane?

Tim, I see the connection at a golf facility to be a far different animal and worthy of being acknowledged financially when exceptional personalized service occurs.

Heres where Im going with this.  New Jersey is so different from the norm in terms of this, I honestly wondered if people that live there tip for full service fuel.  I've driven through several times.  When I'm there and I need gas, I always tip out of some weird obligatory feeling.  You see, I always pump my own gas, as do 95%+ of the people in this country.  When some guy does it for me, he's providing a service I usually take care of myself.  Same with post-round club cleaning. 

I would venture to guess that almost everyone that purchases full service fuel in a state that doesn't require it by law, leaves a tip when they choose the service.  Most service stations I'm familiar with no longer provide this service, but if they do and I take them up on it, you better believe I'm tipping.  The difference is obligation vs. option.

I really just always wondered if NJ residents tipped for gas or not and never had a chance to ask.

Now, connecting this back to the golf thing and why I see a connection...

I have a different opinion about the club cleaning service at a course where it is "required" meaning I have to some how opt out of that service than I do at a course where the cart boys politely ask or offer if I'd like the service.  One is NJ; one is my choice to accept a service.  If I have to "Catch someone and prevent them from cleaning my clubs" I don't view that as a real value-add - especially given the number of people that would ploitely decline.

Asking or offering takes the obligatory feeling out of the equation and also still lets each customer know that a value-added service can be provided if they are interested.   

[Mike Sweeney]

Are Rich People Generous Tippers?
By SEWELL CHAN

(Photo: Tony Cenicola/The New York Times)
Our guide to holiday tipping generated an outpouring of comments, raising questions or angles we had not considered. So here are some additional thoughts on the topic, based on your feedback, interviews with experts and articles from the archives.

1. Are Rich People Less Generous Tippers?

That does not seem to be true — despite many of our readers’ belief to the contrary.

“The coffee place near where I live always has a full tip jar (working-class clientele) while in the upper-middle-class areas, they are always empty,” FromDC wrote. Mark Hammitt said he believed there was an “inverse relationship between the affluence of the givers and the generosity of their gifts.” Nic wrote, “Having worked in the restaurant industry for years, as well as fund raising, I’ve noticed time and again how those who have the least tend to give the most.”

more.......

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/are-rich-people-less-generous-tippers/

[Mike Golden]

I hate this thread. Mostly because it makes some look like complete idiots.

When I go to a restaurant, I try to tip as much as I can afford as possible. When I go to a Golf Course, I always ask the host what is acceptable and then add more to it. But this is why I don't care for utilizing a caddie--I don't need anyone reading putts for me; I don't like anyone touching my clubs or my stuff, let alone clean them. I've had caddies lose stuff, or in some cases rip it off. Some Mexican caddie down in Matazalan, well he shields himself during the rainy season with my very expensive golf umbrella. He actually took money out of my wallet which was in my bag. But I will say this, I  love having a caddie when it comes to playing a great place where they have personality--like at Pine Valley or The Old Course or NGLA or Friar's Head--where great effort has been made to have caddies that aren't just good, but also have personality.

Simply put, I completely understand what Mike Golden is saying--and Mike is one of the all-time good guys by the way--and I've never known him to NOT leave an excellent tip at some of the great restaurants we've been too in our time as friends.

See this thread is ridiculous. Calling out Mike Golden as a cheap skate? (Matt, I think thats what your doing) Well, please.....Where is the love?  Matt, I think you owe Mike an apology before it gets really ugly.

it's not going to get ugly because I have no interest in revealing at least 10 occasions (based on emails I have received from other participants in the DG) where the poster in question has acted in direct contradiction of his 'holier than thou' attitude toward tipping.

I have nothing against tipping, I just don't like knowing that when I tell someone I don't want a service at a golf club I am going to be held in ridicule by the staff vis a vis 'Heisman', 'Peeler' and other names that are mentioned in private.  It doesn't matter whether it's said to your face or not, it's stil being said.  At least no one could ever call me 'Schnorrer', though, unlike a few others...

[Tom Huckaby]

I have been fortunate to know Mike Golden for many years now.

In that time he has taught me a lot of things... not the least of which being how to gracefully accept victories on the golf course (which I learned as he whipped my butt many times)....

And now he has cleared up a pretty much life-long curiousity for me.  See, as a kid I was a big Marx Brothers fan.  We watched a lot of the movies... mainly due to my grandfather who loved Groucho.  So, a big song growing up had a line like this:

hooray for Captain Spaulding, the African explorer
 - did someone call me schnorrer?
hooray hooray hooray...

I always wondered what the heck a schnorrer was.... figured it was just a made-up word to go with explorer.

Well, now I know.  Mike used it perfectly in that last post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnorrer

Of course this has nothing to do with this very contentious thread, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Thanks, Mike.

 

[Jeff Fortson]

I hate this thread. Mostly because it makes some look like complete idiots.

When I go to a restaurant, I try to tip as much as I can afford as possible. When I go to a Golf Course, I always ask the host what is acceptable and then add more to it. But this is why I don't care for utilizing a caddie--I don't need anyone reading putts for me; I don't like anyone touching my clubs or my stuff, let alone clean them. I've had caddies lose stuff, or in some cases rip it off. Some Mexican caddie down in Matazalan, well he shields himself during the rainy season with my very expensive golf umbrella. He actually took money out of my wallet which was in my bag. But I will say this, I  love having a caddie when it comes to playing a great place where they have personality--like at Pine Valley or The Old Course or NGLA or Friar's Head--where great effort has been made to have caddies that aren't just good, but also have personality.

Simply put, I completely understand what Mike Golden is saying--and Mike is one of the all-time good guys by the way--and I've never known him to NOT leave an excellent tip at some of the great restaurants we've been too in our time as friends.

See this thread is ridiculous. Calling out Mike Golden as a cheap skate? (Matt, I think thats what your doing) Well, please.....Where is the love?  Matt, I think you owe Mike an apology before it gets really ugly.

it's not going to get ugly because I have no interest in revealing at least 10 occasions (based on emails I have received from other participants in the DG) where the poster in question has acted in direct contradiction of his 'holier than thou' attitude toward tipping.

I have nothing against tipping, I just don't like knowing that when I tell someone I don't want a service at a golf club I am going to be held in ridicule by the staff vis a vis 'Heisman', 'Peeler' and other names that are mentioned in private.  It doesn't matter whether it's said to your face or not, it's stil being said.  At least no one could ever call me 'Schnorrer', though, unlike a few others...

Mike,

Let me clarify something for you...  no one that politely or, for that matter, impolitely turns down service verbally gets called anything.  It's the people that jump out of their cart and grab their bag as if you are going to steal it from them and then run to their car as if we are going to chop them into pieces like a serial killer that get those comments.  I, personally, have never ridiculed anyone that turns down service with a simple, "no thanks".  I always give someone a friendly, "have a nice day sir, and thanks for coming out", when they decline service.  

I think you are taking this way too personally, IMHO.  If you think that by me sharing some of the inner-circle goings on of outside service staffs was directed at you, then I apologize.  I think you have equally shown a "disdain" for people that are simply trying to do their job, as many others have here.  Just to think that I was just trying to shed light on something I found to be funny to get caught up into some giant blast-fest over something that ultimately involves a $2-$5 transaction is truly mind-blowing to me.

I wish you no ill will and hope that you understand that I was not trying to offend anyone in here with what I shared.  In the future I will make sure to edit everything so as not to offend.  It was simply some harmless humor that no one in service industry takes further than a minute or two.  No one's picture is taken and lists are not being made of "Heismann" winners or "peeler" awards.  

I will say this though.  When you choose to play a club that puts forth a policy of having staff attend to you unsolicited then you should be aware of the policy beforehand and be prepared to tip accordingly.  That is my opinion.  It's the old "when in Rome" creed.  So when I have made comments about not tipping at such places "speak volumes" about people I am referring to their choice to not follow the culture norms of a facility.  That is all.

Happy Holidays.


Jeff F.

[D_Malley]

Are Rich People Generous Tippers?
By SEWELL CHAN

(Photo: Tony Cenicola/The New York Times)
Our guide to holiday tipping generated an outpouring of comments, raising questions or angles we had not considered. So here are some additional thoughts on the topic, based on your feedback, interviews with experts and articles from the archives.

1. Are Rich People Less Generous Tippers?

That does not seem to be true — despite many of our readers’ belief to the contrary.

“The coffee place near where I live always has a full tip jar (working-class clientele) while in the upper-middle-class areas, they are always empty,” FromDC wrote. Mark Hammitt said he believed there was an “inverse relationship between the affluence of the givers and the generosity of their gifts.” Nic wrote, “Having worked in the restaurant industry for years, as well as fund raising, I’ve noticed time and again how those who have the least tend to give the most.”

more.......

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/are-rich-people-less-generous-tippers/

i think the real difference in tipping is between old money rich and new money rich.

[Sam Maryland]

I hate this thread. Mostly because it makes some look like complete idiots.

it's not going to get ugly because I have no interest in revealing at least 10 occasions (based on emails I have received from other participants in the DG) where the poster in question has acted in direct contradiction of his 'holier than thou' attitude toward tipping.

I have nothing against tipping, I just don't like knowing that when I tell someone I don't want a service at a golf club I am going to be held in ridicule by the staff vis a vis 'Heisman', 'Peeler' and other names that are mentioned in private.  It doesn't matter whether it's said to your face or not, it's stil being said.  At least no one could ever call me 'Schnorrer', though, unlike a few others...

Mike,

Let me clarify something for you...  no one that politely or, for that matter, impolitely turns down service verbally gets called anything.  It's the people that jump out of their cart and grab their bag as if you are going to steal it from them and then run to their car as if we are going to chop them into pieces like a serial killer that get those comments.  I, personally, have never ridiculed anyone that turns down service with a simple, "no thanks".  I always give someone a friendly, "have a nice day sir, and thanks for coming out", when they decline service.  

Jeff F.

I agree Tommy.

tried to stay out of this one but...

...last time I was at Centennial was walking from the lot with sticks and met at the curb by the attendant.  twice I politely declined to have my clubs shuttled up, said I'd just carry them myself.  the guy wouldn't take no for an answer, so I turned them over. 

a few minutes later I was standing at the counter paying the green fee when the same guy comes tearing around the corner in a cart with my bag on the back - problem is he forgot to put the strap around the bag.  seemed like slow motion as I watched my bag come flying off the cart and saw my beautiful forged maruman's go sliding across the asphalt at speed.  I didn't raise my voice, or use any profanity, but by the time I was done I'm certain he got the point, and I doubt he ever forgot to strap on a bag again.  and I certainly never turned them over again.

Jeff, a lot of guys out there won't let it go like you seem to.  also, what would implore a guy to "jump out of their cart and grab their bag as if you are going to steal it from them and then run to their car"?  seems odd.

the expectation of tipping is out of control in this country, IMO.

question: are "cart/bag guys" paid an hourly wage?  or do they work for tips only?  given current economic conditions if I were a cart/bag attendant and was being paid an hourly wage I'd be thinking about what my back up plan is - seems like a very obvious budget cut.

question 2:  don't most bag drops have a sign that says "not responsible if your clubs disappear"?  another reason I keep them with me.

[JeffTodd]

Matt - Question for you because I think you are from New Jersey...

What's your take on tipping the service people at gas stations?  I ask only because I know New Jersey mandates the full-service approach.  Do you tip regularly for gas pumping in your state or not since it is a required service?  Would your stance be different if you lived in a different state where full service was a choice?

I've lived all of my 37 years in NJ and I've never tipped a gas attendant, never witnessed a gas attendant being tipped, and never heard a story of it happening. Frankly, it never occurred to me as something to even consider until you mentioned it. I'd be equally likely to tip the K-Mart cashier as I would the guy pumping gas; which is to say not very likely.

I have a single recollection of a kid getting tipped after putting air in the tires for a woman who seemed to have neither the interest nor inclination to do it herself, but that's about it.

[Matt OBrien]

My gf lives in nj any gets very offended when I tip the gas guys.  I see it as a service and a few bucks won't killl you.     Your not the only one tim b

[Abe Summers]

I have worked at several courses in China and feel like my tip really has bang for the buck.  Whenever I make a caddie go out (even though I get the round free as an employee benefit) I make sure to try to tip them.  Here they are often embarrassed to take a tip from a fellow employee.  However, the more I play the less I tip (it can get expensive if you tip too generously and you are playing multiple times a week), and I also notice now which caddies are really good at what they do.  I always tip the good ones.  That said, it's still most fun to play without a caddie at all