How do you prefer to tip?

[Jason Connor]

Where is John Kavanaugh?  I keep waiting to hear his thoughts.

I might not always (read rarely ever) agree with him.  But he makes me think.

[John_Cullum]

Where is John Kavanaugh?  I keep waiting to hear his thoughts.

I might not always (read rarely ever) agree with him.  But he makes me think.

You'll find them here:
http://www.johnkavanaugh.blogspot.com/

[C. Squier]

Bob:

With all due respect -- check out the words used by people who see such service providers as one step below the equivalent of NYC squeegee men. Did you not see what was written? Do you not understand that people who have been or are in the customer service field now would be incensed by such broad brush ignorant comments?

Matt, you're missing a key issue that I, and others, who made the squeegee parallel have.  If a kid asks if they can clean my clubs, I have no problem with it at all.  I'll often just tell them to do the irons, or politely decline.  If they ask, they always get a tip....even if they didn't do any work.  The squeegee parallel comes into play when they don't ask.  There is nothing in anyone's job description that says you must touch someone else's belongings without their permission.  And before someone gives the valet or waiter example of not asking, there is implied permission given when you pull up to the front of a restaurant and leave your car door wide open.  Same with when you sit down at your table, you've implied that you'd like to be waited on.  Simply finishing 18 does not mean start rifling through my stuff.  Call me possessive, call me a control freak, call me a big weirdo creep.....but that's not being cheap. 

In the rest of my post that hasn't gotten any discussion, I also said that people have different needs after a round.  I and others who don't need clubs cleaned, might find more utility out of that same person grabbing me a few lemonades for the road....if someone asked me if they could do that, they'd probably get the change off a $10.  As Jeff said, he feels more like a concierge....I think that's a great idea.  But again, a good concierge doesn't tell people what to do, they react to a customer's needs. 

I'd never advocate that the position gets axed.  It gives a kid a job in the summer and does provide services that many want.  But if the course really wants it to be a high-touch service that provides value, I would advocate going one step past assuming everyone just wants their clubs cleaned no questions asked. 

Jeff - I ran carts for over a decade while growing up at a cheap local public.  If I found $5 in the cupholder, I'd probably think it was my boss looking to fire me for stealing.  But that probably has more to do w/ my old boss than it does someone tipping    We knew where our bread was buttered, the retired ladies league every Tuesday.  It was the only time we were allowed to help with bags and we'd hope to get enough change to run across the street to get a donut.  Yes, this was even this century when it happened.  The good news was, we had full golf privileges all week long and that was the reason we worked there in the summer.  Didn't make much, but played a heck of a lot of golf and it beat bagging groceries all to hell.  And what goes on in the cart barn, stays in the cart barn! 

[J_ Crisham]

Clint,   Somewhat offthread but out of curiosity what does a typical experienced (A class) caddie make for a loop at OFCC. I assume they generally carry a single bag . At Beverly the kids will range from $60-80 per loop. The younger first year kids are probably $35-40/loop. We don't really have any projock types at Beverly. How about at OFCC? Thanks, Jack

[C. Squier]

Clint,   Somewhat offthread but out of curiosity what does a typical experienced (A class) caddie make for a loop at OFCC. I assume they generally carry a single bag . At Beverly the kids will range from $60-80 per loop. The younger first year kids are probably $35-40/loop. We don't really have any projock types at Beverly. How about at OFCC? Thanks, Jack

$60-$80 is generally the norm....even for first year kids.  I don't think I've ever seen a double either.  I never gave it much thought until my trip out East this year where caddies who had been there for decade+ were given about the same (I just ask the caddymaster what the appropriate tip is, usually the best route IMO).  I'd say that our kids are overpaid a bit and the older caddies out east are underpaid.  But I sure love having the option of a caddy, so I'll probably err on overpay just to keep the tradition alive. 

[Matt_Ward]

Clint:

I can certainly understand certain people would take umbrage if anyone is leaping into their lap without a green light from them. No doubt such personnel should ask before engaging in such actions.

I don't disagree that needs can vary from one person to another.

However ...

You also have people who scowl at the thought that others do tip and DO receive exemplary service when they in return offer nothing but EXPECT the same type of service in return. That's when you get the "no tip rule" because it simply levels the field downward. The "no tip rule" is a diplomatically created device meant to eliminate any additional compensation that certain people believe is warranted because others happen to be cheap.

For the purposes of staff - it means a ceiling on what they can earn.

Clint, your point is well taken but it's also clear to me and countless others that you have big time cheap people who will use any rationale they can concoct to avoid throwing a few dollars at people who truly want to make their stay / round as memorable as possible.

Those who don't want such service or disservice as they view it, can simply decline it politely eyeball-to-eyeball and avoid having to create a litany of excuses or boorish behavior in reacting to it.

FYI -- for what it's worth -- an exceptional caddie should receive a tip that is half the carry rate for 18 holes. If the fee is $60 -- the tip would be half that.



 

[J_ Crisham]

Matt,     I can't say I've seen that rule of thumb before regarding caddy fees. Seems a bit light to me. Our 18 hole flat fee is $36. We have roughly 300 caddies on the books. 250 of whom are fairly experienced. According to your formula a caddie would only receive $54. Given the # of caddies we have the loops are only single bags.  When I am a guestat someones club I prefer to take my advice from my host and pay the caddy myself -at a minimum of usually $80. This is about the norm in Chicago.    Jack

[C. Squier]

Matt,     I can't say I've seen that rule of thumb before regarding caddy fees. Seems a bit light to me. Our 18 hole flat fee is $36. We have roughly 300 caddies on the books. 250 of whom are fairly experienced. According to your formula a caddie would only receive $54. Given the # of caddies we have the loops are only single bags.  When I am a guestat someones club I prefer to take my advice from my host and pay the caddy myself -at a minimum of usually $80. This is about the norm in Chicago.    Jack

That is a difference I have seen too....Chicago area clubs have a much lower base rate, which is usually doubled, whereas other areas have a much higher base rate w/ a lighter tip.  Which is why I ask for all-in cost, I just don't have the bandwidth for all the math!

[C. Squier]

Clint:

I can certainly understand certain people would take umbrage if anyone is leaping into their lap without a green light from them. No doubt such personnel should ask before engaging in such actions.

I don't disagree that needs can vary from one person to another.

However ...

You also have people who scowl at the thought that others do tip and DO receive exemplary service when they in return offer nothing but EXPECT the same type of service in return. That's when you get the "no tip rule" because it simply levels the field downward. The "no tip rule" is a diplomatically created device meant to eliminate any additional compensation that certain people believe is warranted because others happen to be cheap.

For the purposes of staff - it means a ceiling on what they can earn.

Clint, your point is well taken but it's also clear to me and countless others that you have big time cheap people who will use any rationale they can concoct to avoid throwing a few dollars at people who truly want to make their stay / round as memorable as possible.

Those who don't want such service or disservice as they view it, can simply decline it politely eyeball-to-eyeball and avoid having to create a litany of excuses or boorish behavior in reacting to it.

FYI -- for what it's worth -- an exceptional caddie should receive a tip that is half the carry rate for 18 holes. If the fee is $60 -- the tip would be half that.

I see your points as well....we're probably ending up at the same spot, just coming in from a different direction.  The one thing I'll add is this:  If you're a member at a club that advertises great service, you should expect it.  If you tip well, then I can see over the top service....but the baseline must still be high for the lesser tippers if that is what the club / course advertises.  I've never seen a club website that says "We thrive on great service (but only if you tip well!)". 

This is where the onus is put on the management of the club.  If a staffer doesn't want to help a member because that person doesn't tip, they have a problem.  The staffer accepted a job with a set wage with no promise of tips.  It is up to the management to make sure that person lives up to that responsibility.  If staffers scatter like cockroaches because Mr. Tightwad is on the approach, there is an issue.  If extra hustle gets you a few extra bucks from certain people....that's fantastic, hustle away.  But a minimum level of service still must be maintained no matter what.  Even though Mr. Tightwad doesn't tip, he still paid an initiation fee and still pays monthly dues. 

At the end of the day, it's just easier to have a few bucks ready....I used to be that kid and I'm darn happy that I'm on the other side of the fence now.  Between two sets of dues and all the other travel chasing this silly game across the country, a few bucks here and there just don't add up to much. 

[Matt_Ward]

Clint:

No qualified professional staff person refuses service because a member / guest is not known as a big time tipper. The issue is that these same members resent those who get even more attention because they do tip. There's a difference and it's one the cheapskates don't get. Better to pull down the bar to their level instead of them recognizing exceptional service when they get it. That's why the "no tip rule" is a diplomatic smole screen to anyone in the service industry and ultimately fails at the club level because it doens't recognize exceptional service.

Clint, let me clue you in -- equality is a wonderful concept -- but there will always be a "first among equals" and those people who are on both sides of the aidle -- understand that completely.

Last item -- I salute you for having seen the situation firsthand -- I often wonder if members were to play the role of staff person for just a day or so they might learn a good deal more about human behavior and what is needed for their club / resort to be even better.

[Jeff Fortson]

I find it hilarious that many of the anti-tippers or no-tip policy guys in here seemed to be the same guys that are uber-capitalists.  

Matt and Jeff,

You make the simple mistake of tarring people with whom you have a disagreement, with the brush of cheapness, meaness and being plutocratic.

I tip when I want to, sometimes too much but hopefully never too little. When I am at some of the resort courses, I feel I am in the land of the waving palms and that I am expected to pay for some slovenly attempt at cleaning my clubs with a dry rag. Quite honestly I don't like it.

As for the uber-capitalist crack, it is unwarranted, I am sure that quite a few on this board have been poor, I know I have and always thought rich was better.  


Bob

Bob,

Couple of things to clear up my "uber-capitalist" comment.

First, I said "many" of those supporting no-tip policies are those that have professed their love of free market, capitalism in past political threads.  That certainly doesn't mean I am pointing the finger at you personally. 

Second, I find the no-tip policy promoters to be hypocritical.  At least the hard core capitalist ones. Here's why...

A no-tip policy dis-incentivizes good service unless the hourly wage is very high.  Even then, the employee knows all he has to do is the bare minimum to get his paycheck and keep his job. There's less hustle and less incentive to do a superior job. Also, why should the wealth, of above and beyond typical service, be spread around to those that don't want to pay for it?  Even more humorous is that by having a no-tip policy the club ends up paying the employee more which costs the member more money in dues.  I bet it nets out the same as if they had simply tipped for above and beyond service.  I guess it might be easier to write a check for more money to the club when paying one's dues than it is to pull out a couple of greenbacks to throw at a kid.  Maybe it's something psychological about parting with cold, hard cash.  Basically, I find it funny that someone promotes hands-off, Darwinistic capitalism in our economy on other threads and yet wants utopian, communistic principles applied at the place they play golf at. 

I just think it's funny, that's all.  The comment was meant to be light-hearted so I apologize if you were offended.


Jeff F.

[Jeff Fortson]

Matt, you're missing a key issue that I, and others, who made the squeegee parallel have.  If a kid asks if they can clean my clubs, I have no problem with it at all.  I'll often just tell them to do the irons, or politely decline.  If they ask, they always get a tip....even if they didn't do any work.  The squeegee parallel comes into play when they don't ask.  There is nothing in anyone's job description that says you must touch someone else's belongings without their permission.  And before someone gives the valet or waiter example of not asking, there is implied permission given when you pull up to the front of a restaurant and leave your car door wide open.  Same with when you sit down at your table, you've implied that you'd like to be waited on.  Simply finishing 18 does not mean start rifling through my stuff.  Call me possessive, call me a control freak, call me a big weirdo creep.....but that's not being cheap. 

In the rest of my post that hasn't gotten any discussion, I also said that people have different needs after a round.  I and others who don't need clubs cleaned, might find more utility out of that same person grabbing me a few lemonades for the road....if someone asked me if they could do that, they'd probably get the change off a $10.  As Jeff said, he feels more like a concierge....I think that's a great idea.  But again, a good concierge doesn't tell people what to do, they react to a customer's needs. 

I'd never advocate that the position gets axed.  It gives a kid a job in the summer and does provide services that many want.  But if the course really wants it to be a high-touch service that provides value, I would advocate going one step past assuming everyone just wants their clubs cleaned no questions asked. 

Jeff - I ran carts for over a decade while growing up at a cheap local public.  If I found $5 in the cupholder, I'd probably think it was my boss looking to fire me for stealing.  But that probably has more to do w/ my old boss than it does someone tipping    We knew where our bread was buttered, the retired ladies league every Tuesday.  It was the only time we were allowed to help with bags and we'd hope to get enough change to run across the street to get a donut.  Yes, this was even this century when it happened.  The good news was, we had full golf privileges all week long and that was the reason we worked there in the summer.  Didn't make much, but played a heck of a lot of golf and it beat bagging groceries all to hell.  And what goes on in the cart barn, stays in the cart barn! 

Clint,

I have to disagree with some of your comments.  It is absolutely expected of many outside service staffs to approach a cart that just finished their round and begin to service their clubs unsolicited.  It's part of the customer service where I work part-time.  "Simply finishing 18 holes" does mean our staff will start servicing your equipment.  It's a service the majority of our customers want.  I'm not disagreeing with your sentiments, I'm simply trying to tell you how it is at many courses. 

Your experience in a cart barn is much different than mine and maybe that is why we draw different conclusions.  I do understand where you are coming from, but the kids aren't doing this on their own accord, they've been trained and instructed to.  Your beef should be with the pro/manager that put the policy in place.  I do think the "NYC Squeegy Man" analogy is a little over the top and borderline offensive but I'll chalk it up to humor and let it go. 

Please understand I am not mad and I am not trying to argue.  I simply want to provide my perspective.


Jeff F.

[corey miller]

Does anyone acknowledge the difference between tipping at a public facility and a private club? 

Maybe my club that employs 155 people and provides health care and pension and meals and golf and a christmas fund and charges a "service fee" on meals and is the leader in caddie scholarship funding in the area should change it's no tip policy (other than caddies, caddiemaster, and locker room attendent)?

I will wait for advice from this group and then bring it to our cheapskate board and  cheapskate membership.

I love the way that people on this board with no club affiliation always seem to have the best ideas for member run clubs.

[Jeff Fortson]

Does anyone acknowledge the difference between tipping at a public facility and a private club? 

Maybe my club that employs 155 people and provides health care and pension and meals and golf and a christmas fund and charges a "service fee" on meals and is the leader in caddie scholarship funding in the area should change it's no tip policy (other than caddies, caddiemaster, and locker room attendent)?

I will wait for advice from this group and then bring it to our cheapskate board and  cheapskate membership.

I love the way that people on this board with no club affiliation always seem to have the best ideas for member run clubs.

Corey,

Glad to see you post under your real name!

It sounds like your club more than makes up for a no-tip policy.  I never said it was wrong.  I just saw hypocrisy in many that were promoting it.  Plus, equating an outside service staff member with a bum is quite tasteless. 

To be honest, I could give a rats ass who tips here and who doesn't, although it does speak volumes on the type of person you are.


Jeff F.

[C. Squier]

Clint,

I have to disagree with some of your comments.  It is absolutely expected of many outside service staffs to approach a cart that just finished their round and begin to service their clubs unsolicited.  It's part of the customer service where I work part-time.  "Simply finishing 18 holes" does mean our staff will start servicing your equipment.  It's a service the majority of our customers want.  I'm not disagreeing with your sentiments, I'm simply trying to tell you how it is at many courses. 

Your experience in a cart barn is much different than mine and maybe that is why we draw different conclusions.  I do understand where you are coming from, but the kids aren't doing this on their own accord, they've been trained and instructed to.  Your beef should be with the pro/manager that put the policy in place.  I do think the "NYC Squeegy Man" analogy is a little over the top and borderline offensive but I'll chalk it up to humor and let it go. 

Please understand I am not mad and I am not trying to argue.  I simply want to provide my perspective.


Jeff F.

Jeff, I fully understand we're debating one of life's most unimportant details....all in good fun.

Serious question:  What does your staff do if a regular finishes 18 and you know that person doesn't want their clubs cleaned?  From memory, I believe you're at a high end public, but surely a few players are regulars. 

[jeffwarne]

When I was an underpaid, overworked assistant at Long Cove (a private club with many out of town members) we used to book up solid 30 days in advance in busy months. ( we were literally met at the door at 7 am 30 days out and alternated reservations from the line to phone)

Many out of towners would be shut out if they didn't plan accordingly.
We had great sympathy for them but there's not much you can do when 575 members all decide to come in April (with guests)

Some members would come in and rip our head off . They NEVER got out-even if we had a cancelation.
Others would politely explain their problem and we did what we could (often there were cancelations or at worst we slipped them in as best we could if they were patient)

Some would comment on how much they appreciated my effort and shake my hand with a $100 bill in it - (As I was making $6 an hour at the time--coincidentally there were often cancellations right at that point 

I'm sure the this would enrage a nontipper, but think about it next time you're in a jam-and politeness never hurts.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle  H:

Your last answer demonstrates you are clueless on what's been said.

Nuff said ...

Hey Ward,

Pay up.

[Jordan Wall]

Matt,

While I dont feel the need to talk for others, I think it says something when you try and put someone like Mr. Huntley in his place.  It's quite laughable, actually.

I'm sure he can read and understand everything you right.  However, your non stop character attacks on other peoples based on their opinions is almost disgraceful - you seem to do it so much where I can just laugh it off and ignore it.  But for a grown man to represent himself in such a way, constantly, by disrespecting others and their opinions so much just shines off negatively on you and your arrogant ways.

I dont have a problem listening to what you have to say, but when you cant do the same for others in a respectful manner, there becomes a problem. 

Perhaps it is time to take up Mr. Huntley's advice, from some four pages ago, to end this thread.  For your sake, if anything.

Cheers,
Jordan

p.s. In the way of tipping, I find it better and more respectable to do so quietly, rather then spending four pages to let the whole world know you tip more then the other guy.  Class act, there.

[PCCraig]

Clint,   Somewhat offthread but out of curiosity what does a typical experienced (A class) caddie make for a loop at OFCC. I assume they generally carry a single bag . At Beverly the kids will range from $60-80 per loop. The younger first year kids are probably $35-40/loop. We don't really have any projock types at Beverly. How about at OFCC? Thanks, Jack

$60-$80 is generally the norm....even for first year kids.  I don't think I've ever seen a double either.  I never gave it much thought until my trip out East this year where caddies who had been there for decade+ were given about the same (I just ask the caddymaster what the appropriate tip is, usually the best route IMO).  I'd say that our kids are overpaid a bit and the older caddies out east are underpaid.  But I sure love having the option of a caddy, so I'll probably err on overpay just to keep the tradition alive. 

Jack / Clint -

Are you guys talking about $60-$80 per bag?

From what I experienced looping at 5+ places in both Chicago and out east is that (for a double bag) the least a honor (A, or highest caddie) would make $100. I think its interesting to see the economics of looping...the best caddies go where;

1) they get out consistently
2) players walk
3) no forced single bag carries
4) and of course wherever the money is.

[C. Squier]

Jack / Clint -

Are you guys talking about $60-$80 per bag?

From what I experienced looping at 5+ places in both Chicago and out east is that (for a double bag) the least a honor (A, or highest caddie) would make $100. I think its interesting to see the economics of looping...the best caddies go where;

1) they get out consistently
2) players walk
3) no forced single bag carries
4) and of course wherever the money is.

Many of our caddies don't even have a driver's license.  The oldest caddy at Olympia Fields may be 22 working their last summer after/before college.  Though its a different dynamic than a pro caddy, I always enjoy talking with the kids and look forward to seeing friends next summer when they're a year older and wiser

[Matt_Ward]

Jordan:

Who in the hell annointed you as the seer of what is right ?

I never said anything remotely geared towards "put(ting) someon like Mr. Huntley in his place." I'd have no problem telling you though.

What's laughable and speaks volumes to your reading comprehension is the idea that it's OK for people to label those in the service industry as akin to NYC squeegee guys but when people comment in regards to that inane statement the tables are turned back on them. I listened real well to what others said -- did you? Or do you simply jump in on this thread when people who are roundly labeled as low level grubbers say something in return. Maybe you need to wake up and smell the coffee before you start to ignorantly begin barking on telling others what is proper behavior.

I never said I tip more than the other guy -- I did say that those who use clever word games and diplomatic outs like the no tip rule should see it a bit more clearly than the way they portary themselves. Jordan, do yourself a favor -- before you self appoint yourself as the police cop of GCA - take a moment to read the insults hurled by a few others. That's if you bother to read and figure out where the first pitch was really thrown.

To borrow your expressions ...

Cheers ...

 

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan:

Who in the hell annointed you as the seer of what is right ?

I never said anything remotely geared towards "put(ting) someon like Mr. Huntley in his place." I'd have no problem telling you though.

What's laughable and speaks volumes to your reading comprehension is the idea that it's OK for people to label those in the service industry as akin to NYC squeegee guys but when people comment in regards to that inane statement the tables are turned back on them. I listened real well to what others said -- did you? Or do you simply jump in on this thread when people who are roundly labeled as low level grubbers say something in return. Maybe you need to wake up and smell the coffee before you start to ignorantly begin barking on telling others what is proper behavior.

I never said I tip more than the other guy -- I did say that those who use clever word games and diplomatic outs like the no tip rule should see it a bit more clearly than the way they portary themselves. Jordan, do yourself a favor -- before you self appoint yourself as the police cop of GCA - take a moment to read the insults hurled by a few others. That's if you bother to read and figure out where the first pitch was really thrown.

To borrow your expressions ...

Cheers ...

 

Matt,

Nobody compared people in the service industry to squeegee guys, they compared people coming up to carts to clean up clubs without being asked to squeegee guys. Check your own reading comprehension.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan:

Who in the hell annointed you as the seer of what is right ?

I never said anything remotely geared towards "put(ting) someon like Mr. Huntley in his place." I'd have no problem telling you though.

What's laughable and speaks volumes to your reading comprehension is the idea that it's OK for people to label those in the service industry as akin to NYC squeegee guys but when people comment in regards to that inane statement the tables are turned back on them. I listened real well to what others said -- did you? Or do you simply jump in on this thread when people who are roundly labeled as low level grubbers say something in return. Maybe you need to wake up and smell the coffee before you start to ignorantly begin barking on telling others what is proper behavior.

I never said I tip more than the other guy -- I did say that those who use clever word games and diplomatic outs like the no tip rule should see it a bit more clearly than the way they portary themselves. Jordan, do yourself a favor -- before you self appoint yourself as the police cop of GCA - take a moment to read the insults hurled by a few others. That's if you bother to read and figure out where the first pitch was really thrown.

To borrow your expressions ...

Cheers ...

 

Matt,

I'm no GCA cop, but I get sick and tired of you bashing people every time you disagree.  Your just rude, and if nobody is going to say anything about it, I will.  Sure, your older than I and perhaps have authority over me but that does not constitute you the right to be so blatently rude every time you disagree with somebody.  You cant call somebody else's opinion wrong because it is just that - an opinion.

I think we understood your view on the subject after the first few posts, do you really think we need ten or more to ingrain it into our heads?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Check out all the dumb and assinine negatives hurled by people -- yourself included. You might as well confuse service people with the Taliban.

Kyle, you must have missed a few times how Jeff F explained such actions. Of course, what the hell, why bother to read the fullness of others when you are so locked into your own beliefs.

Jordan:

Hold the phone amigo -- you have people who repeat time and time again there comments -- be sure in your role as GCA Robocop to lecture them and bark at them on what you deem as permissible.

I can certainly tell people their opinions are wrong -- no less than they can tell me that mine are wrong. That's what makes the site interesting. If you can't hack the robust give and take that takes place -- don't particpate.

 

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan:

Hold the phone amigo -- you have people who repeat time and time again there comments -- be sure in your role as GCA Robocop to lecture them and bark at them on what you deem as permissible.

I can certainly tell people their opinions are wrong -- no less than they can tell me that mine are wrong. That's what makes the site interesting. If you can't hack the robust give and take that takes place -- don't particpate.

 

Matt,

I'm no gca robocop, which is ridiculous, but I think there gets to be a certain point where your constant rashness in posts gets old and unwanted.

And, as opinions go, you disagree, not tell somebody they are wrong; thats why they are opinions.  They are neither wrong or right.