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Andy Troeger

Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« on: December 06, 2008, 05:45:21 PM »
I'm planning to finally make it out to Apache Stronghold on Saturday, January 17th. If any GCA'ers would like to join, I'll make a tee time (or more if there's enough interest)--probably around noon. I might be able to do late morning depending on whether I can do part of the drive from Albuquerque the preceeding evening. Its supposed to be about a six hour drive.

Either post here or send me an IM if you'd like to play, once I get an idea of interest I'll make the tee time(s). I did confirm with the course that they are wide open on that date after 9:30 AM.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 09:55:10 PM »
I'm in!

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 04:17:19 PM »
Bump...for all those weekday GCA'ers who likely missed the original post.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 05:26:31 PM »
Don't have dates for my Jan. visit to AZ set yet (working out trip to Alamo Bowl now), but will keep this weekend in mind. . .

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2008, 04:47:19 PM »
Bump...looking like I'll just make one time as Tom Y. is the only other confirmed player. Happy to have more if anyone is interested.

Matt_Ward

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2008, 07:51:58 PM »
Andy:

Glad to hear of your pending visit there.

Just a quick suggestion -- I'd like to get your candid comments on the conditioning front. No doubt we are in the winter months but given your eye and understanding of different courses I'd appreciate a real analysis of how the turf contributues or takes away from what the design provides.

That to me is the essential element in determining for me if a fourth visit to AS is even worth contemplating.

Thanks ...

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2008, 02:20:36 PM »
Tee time made at Noon for January 17th. If there's last minute interest I'm sure we can add another.

Matt,
Will let you know on the conditioning front.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 03:22:35 PM »
Andy, I have not purchased a plane ticket yet, but that weekend looks to be like the one that I will be in AZ.  I probably won't know until I get back from TX late next week, but will confirm as soon as I do know. . .

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 09:18:20 PM »
Mark,
Sounds good, just keep us posted.

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2009, 07:37:33 PM »
Quick update: we're up to five that are interested, so I wanted to see if we could round up a couple more and I'll add a second tee time.

Again, January 17th at Noon is what we're shooting for.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2009, 10:08:28 AM »
I will know yea or nay by this Monday. . .

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2009, 08:10:54 PM »
I'm in. :)

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2009, 09:58:35 PM »
Mark,

Good deal. We had a couple cancellations after my last post so that gives us four again. Looking forward to meeting you and Tom Y.

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2009, 07:38:42 PM »
A few thoughts on a nice round at Apache Stronghold yesterday--the quality of the company and the weather were both better than the quality of our play I think  ;D

As far as the course--I was generally really impressed with the layout. If that was the only criterion to be considered then I think Apache Stronghold would be near the top of the list for Arizona golf.

The condition is about as many of the rest of you have described over the years--certainly not up to par with the design aspects. For the most part, I didn't find it to be a huge detraction from the experience--the greens rolled fine and the fairways while dormant at least did seem to have grass on them. Three greens had pretty significant problems (and/or were being worked on)--#10, 14, and 18. Quite a few of the tee boxes appeared to be out of use.

Certainly there will continue to be differing viewpoints on how much the conditioning affects the overall thoughts on the course. I think much of that will depend on what you're used to--someone who normally plays municipal courses probably wouldn't think much of the conditioning whereas someone who normally plays at a pristine private club will probably be more disappointed. I think if you go in understanding what to expect the design still more than makes it worth the trek to play especially considering the rate was a whopping $35. My feeling is that the quality of the conditioning only minimally takes away from the design due to the issue with some of the greens--its worth the effort.

One thing that Tom Y. mentioned--they evidently aren't putting much effort into clearing out the desert areas. They are filled with "non-tumbling" tumbleweeds (that's the technical term!)--makes it pretty much impossible to find a ball unless you get rather lucky. The playing areas are fairly generous for the most part, but the lack of recovery from the desert is a bit disappointing. That of course can be said for a lot of places.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2009, 10:43:47 PM »
Andy , did you guys walk?  I thought it was great to walk there because of the paths through the desert down from the front of the tees to the fairways.  If you followed the cart paths it would be quite a trek.

On more than one occasion I thought about reptilian life out there on those paths, but I guess it hasn't been a problem.   Yet..... ;)

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2009, 10:57:44 PM »
Mark and Tom walked the full 18, I walked 8 holes but then my bag stand broke which got annoying quickly so I ended up in the cart with a friend of mine that joined us and had to ride because of a bad back. Evidently they don't have/allow pull carts out there, seemed kind of odd...

Seemed like most of those "paths" have eroded into the desert. You could walk through some areas better than others, but most of the time it didn't seem like there was a very clear cut path anymore.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2009, 12:23:13 AM »
I was just happy that Tom knew where some of the short cuts were.  I didn't even notice them on my first visit to AS (perhaps that's a bit telling about the difference between walking and riding?).  I thought it was walkable enough, but for the climb up to the 14th tee.  I'm not sure that my heartbeat's gone down yet, and I rode all day at Firerock in Fountain Hills :).

I would definitely concur about both the company and the weather.  I'm apparently no longer the bringer of bad weather on my monthly winter excursions to the Valley.  It's been over 70 degrees and sunny every day (not looking forward to flying back to Chicago tomorrow afternoon, tho 1 last round at Talking Stick North will provide some comfort for the plane ride).

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2009, 09:48:45 AM »
It was  my pleasure to meet Mark, Andy and Jerry.  Enjoyed the company and the golf on a postcard Arizona winter day - sunny skies mid/upper 60's.   I took some photos and will try to post them as soon as I get them uploaded and resized.

My third visit to AS, and I love the course but must echo the sentiments that the maintenance is disappointing.  By no means however, was it bad enough to affect my enjoyment of the experience.   As a lifelong muni rat, I'm fairly tolerant of rustic conditions.  The ruggedness to some extent, may be part of the package but a few things can be a bit frustrating.

About the course - a delightful journey away from civilization and into the wild Arizona high desert.  Each hole essentially isolated from any other, it is rare to see any other humans and the only sounds are the wind rustling the bushes and the occasional screech of a soaring hawk.  The routing seems to take perfect advantage of the terrain and each hole seems to have been laid upon the topography with a minimal touch from the hand of man. 

I can say that I have observed that ongoing maintenance does appear to be happening, although I wonder if any true professional is directing the efforts.  The turf problems that I saw on some of the greens during my visit in October are being addressed.  About half of the tenth green has been regrassed, the new part a totally different color and not yet cut down to green height.  At first, I wondered if they could have used a different grass,  but then I noted some rolled up tarps which I surmise may be used to cover the new turf to prevent frost damage and thus the different color ??  Some other bad spots have been resodded, providing some entertaining putts.  Overall, the greens are in much better condition than my first visit in October of 2007.

I believe that the old fairway turf issue has been resolved.  From my understanding, the original choice of turf did not work out and the fairways had been regrassed with bermuda.   An occasional bare spot will be encountered and some rough edges are really not a big issue.  No winter overseed occurs, so Saturday's visit was played on a dormant bermuda which offered a fine and perfectly playable fairway surface.

Some returfing of the teeboxes is ongoing, as Andy mentioned, some totally dead teeboxes were noted, others have been resodded, but oddly, it seems different grasses have been used.  While most of the tees are bent (I think), some of the tees have been resodded with bermuda.    ???

Bunker maintenance is sketchy at best and conditions range from acceptable to nonexistant sand.   In 2008, we had a pretty wet winter and summer monsoon season which seems to have promoted the growth of tumbleweed (?) in the desert areas.  Where my first visit found fairly cleared out desert areas, the off turf surroundings are now clogged with dead brush making pretty much any foray into the natural surroundings lost ball or unplayable.

Not to sound like I am bitching, the conditioning issue comes up and I merely want to provide some observations.   I find the course a superior layout in a scenic environment and an enjoyable test of golf.  The conditioning by no means would prevent me from returning.  It is rustic but no more so than the average muni.

AS remains in my AZ top ten public list and a recommended play if you are visiting the area.

Tom

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2009, 10:45:10 AM »
Sounds like you guys had a good time. Did anyone happen to take pics?

Jim Johnson

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2009, 05:50:46 PM »
Looking forward to seeing your pics, Tom.

My wife and I were in that area last May, and I was really looking forward to playing Apache Stronghold (we golfed We-Ko-Pa and Sedona on that trip). When I phoned to book a teetime before we arrived in Arizona, I was told that the course was closed for the two days that were available to us, because of some PGA sectional tournament.

I assumed, wrongly perhaps, that course conditions would be really good for them to hold a PGA sectional there.

JJ

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2009, 11:35:25 PM »
I have some photos too but just got home and with the work week ahead am probably looking at next weekend before I'm going to have much chance to do anything with them.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2009, 10:18:48 PM »
Some photos from the round:

We played the Warrior tees (2nd longest) 7007yds/72.1/138


The Par 3 3rd - our tees were all the way back - 239yds !



Fairway wrinkles on the log par 4 5th.  This pic shows the typical turf - dormant bermuda (not dead):



5th green from behind:



View from the tee of the short par 4 6th:



10th green from behind showing the new grass:



10th green showing bare spots (October 2008):



Par 3 11th from the tee:



The Redan 14th.



The dogleg right par 5 15th from the tee.  Long hitters try to carry the knob on the right:



Par 3 17th, one of my favorites:



Par 4 18th from the forward tees. 



Jim Johnson

Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2009, 10:36:47 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to post these photos, Tom.

JJ

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2009, 07:36:27 AM »
Thanks for the photos.  I've always wondered about the green on the 5th.  I love the hole for the difficulty of the second shot but always think that the green is too exacting while I'm playing the hole.   To me, the 5th stands out as the most difficult hole on the course requiring a long drive and second to very challenging green that falls off the back third. 

Would love to hear Tom D's thoughts on the hole. 

p.s.  I love Apache and will be back in March!
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold--Saturday January 17th
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2009, 08:15:13 AM »
#5 is definitely a stiff test.  2nd shot is uphill to a green that falls away


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