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JNC Lyon

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2008, 04:59:49 PM »
Tom stop it right now.  We all see right through you.  You trumpeted you were coming back to hound Jay and this is nothing more than that hare-brained scheme.  Well the emperor has no clothes.  Go ahead argue with yourself all you want, but leave the rest of us out of it

And while we're talking about it, you don't have to have a horseshoe on a short.  This is from Ran's write up of 5 at Yale:

"Also, the typical bold interior green contours found within Raynor's best short holes aren't in evidence here"

5 at Yale originally did have a horseshoe in the green, but it has since been removed.  There is a picture of the original green construction in Geoff Shackleford's "The Golden Age of Golf Design."  It would seem the hole is much less interesting now that the horseshoe is missing.  A short hole without the horseshoe loses the original idea of segmenting the green to create deceptively small target areas within in a large green.  12 at Leatherstocking, on the other hand, gains its interest from the surrounding trouble and the front-to-back slope of the green.


There;s no horseshoe at Stone bridge 16 or at Knoll Club short holes, or at sleepy hollow or at Charleston.  people put horseshoes in several types of holes back then. there's one at oakmont on a par-4.  is that a short?

Jay, you're doing the right thing staying above his nonsense.  Good onya.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2008, 05:53:29 PM »
Tom,

Its interesting that you feel that a short must have a horseshoe in the green.  As has been shown, not every template hole has all the features of NGLA.  For that matter, NGLA studiously avoided copying holes exactly.  Tom Doak has stated that he didn't want to copy CBM holes exactly at Old MacDonald.  Everyone seems to understand why, and yet, in this case, you want to argue that the horseshoe MUST be in the green at Leatherstocking for it to be called a short?

I understand you take things architecture related pretty literally - what many gca's would call a restoration wouldn't pass muster in your book, for example.  But, just as there are "approximations" that some accept for maintenance reasons - it would be my guess that the contour was removed at Yale 5 for maintenance reasons when the first riding mowers made them impractical - some approximations might have already been done by the original gca for template holes to give it their own style.

How do we know that the gca didn't want to just put his own touch on the hole, or in consideration of there having to be a smaller green, just chose to leave it out for practical reasons on this version?

I think the club pro and Jay are entitled to believe this one is a short, without providing exhaustive evidence to back up the point.  As you say, there are certainly lots of similarities, enough, IMHO to call it a short hole. If you prefer, for gca purposes, we can call it a "short-lite" even though it looks like a heavy hitter in its own right!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Stamm

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2008, 06:42:59 PM »
Tom stop it right now.  We all see right through you.  You trumpeted you were coming back to hound Jay and this is nothing more than that hare-brained scheme.  Well the emperor has no clothes.  Go ahead argue with yourself all you want, but leave the rest of us out of it

Mike, please don't speak for the rest of us.

And while we're talking about it, you don't have to have a horseshoe on a short.  This is from Ran's write up of 5 at Yale:

"Also, the typical bold interior green contours found within Raynor's best short holes aren't in evidence here"

Do you suppose the green could've been changed?

There's no horseshoe at Stone bridge 16 or at Knoll Club short holes, or at sleepy hollow or at Charleston.  people put horseshoes in several types of holes back then. there's one at oakmont on a par-4.  is that a short?

See above. What does a par 4 green have to do w/ a Short? The feature only makes one part of the template.

Jay, you're doing the right thing staying above his nonsense.  Good onya.

The fact that we don't know what's being said privately IM wise seems to make no difference. I can speak from personal experience in this case. Let Jay fight his own fights w/ Tommy, Mike. The fact that Jay's work continues to get plugged on this site with out any reciprocity on his end is not right, BTW.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike Mosely

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2008, 10:37:37 PM »
Quote:

"Let Jay fight his own fights w/ Tommy, Mike. The fact that Jay's work continues to get plugged on this site with out any reciprocity on his end is not right, BTW"

No, David, I'm not going to stand by and watch another of my threads devolve into abusive conduct and ad hominem attacks.  It was bad enough that The Merion Wars interrupted more than one of my threads about courses that had nothing to do with Merion, I'm not going to sit and watch someone be abusive to another person who has gone out of his way to avoid trouble.  Tom avowed troubled for Jay and Jay has ignored him.  If he hates him so much, why can't he just leave him alone.

If you want to stump for some sort of "rule" about plugging and reciprocity, then the same rule about reciprocity must therefore apply to every other writer on the site:  Geoff Shackelford, Brad Klein, Joel Zuckerman, Paul daley, Rob Thompson, etc.  I have seen several other writers plugging books and noone has a problem with that.  What do you want, a tag on  the end of every article that says "this was linked to on GCA.com?"  That's makes zero sense.  No, what you seem to want is one set of rules for Jay, but a different set for your friends. 

Tom Naccarato

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2008, 10:47:39 PM »
Tom,

Its interesting that you feel that a short must have a horseshoe in the green.

Jeff, I know they don't. That is a pretty easy one to figure out. What I'm trying to find out is--and I have asked this several times--where Jay has found--in his vast research--where the "emphasis" on inspiration came from.

He still hasn't answered.

Mike Mosely, Get ready to eat a shit sandwich, rare.

Thanks to Jay's inaccuracies, many talented researchers are finding out at this very moment that the possibility exists that Devereux Emmet may not have even designed Leatherstocking, but only helped out with some other "talented" individuals.


Tom Naccarato

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2008, 10:51:30 PM »
Also Mike, for the sake of golf history, thanks for making this thread happen. Because the answers are coming out of it. That is unless you don't want accurate truth of who designed what--and that has been my point from the start.

But good for you Mike. You've at least assured yourself of not getting sued or having a threatening letter delivered to your door. Good for you!

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2008, 11:22:07 PM »
Quote:

"Let Jay fight his own fights w/ Tommy, Mike. The fact that Jay's work continues to get plugged on this site with out any reciprocity on his end is not right, BTW"

No, David, I'm not going to stand by and watch another of my threads devolve into abusive conduct and ad hominem attacks.  It was bad enough that The Merion Wars interrupted more than one of my threads about courses that had nothing to do with Merion,

I don't want to see that either, Mike. But doesn't calling out Tommy like you did above contribute to this? Tommy is asking Jay architecture questions from an article that you posted. If these two have a problem with each other, I would hope that they would take off your thread as to not disrupt it.


 I'm not going to sit and watch someone be abusive to another person who has gone out of his way to avoid trouble. 

Mike, all is not as it appears. If we took a roll call of all that have been threatened off line it would shock you.


 Tom avowed troubled for Jay and Jay has ignored him.  If he hates him so much, why can't he just leave him alone.

I can't and won't speak for either of them.

If you want to stump for some sort of "rule" about plugging and reciprocity, then the same rule about reciprocity must therefore apply to every other writer on the site:  Geoff Shackelford, Brad Klein, Joel Zuckerman, Paul daley, Rob Thompson, etc. 


I would agree. The same rule should apply across the board. If someone wants to, of their volition, point out to the treehouse someone else's handiwork, great. BTW, Geoff has a link to GCA on his homepage and he never comes on this site anymore.

 I have seen several other writers plugging books and noone has a problem with that.

There are quite a few that do, they just choose not to say anything. Silence does not always imply compliance.



  What do you want, a tag on  the end of every article that says "this was linked to on GCA.com?"

Only if the author himself, the arch himself or whomever is the one plugging. Revenue is generated with self promotion, Ran's site is non profit. It would be the least he or they could do when using the site for advertising and drive more visitors to the GCA site.



 No, what you seem to want is one set of rules for Jay, but a different set for your friends. 

What friends are you referring to?


 


 
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2008, 12:55:51 AM »
I haven't been there in 5 years or so, but I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the bunkers that once encircled this green(12th) have been removed.

 




"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom Naccarato

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2008, 02:32:13 AM »
Possibly.

I also have Devereux Emmet describing the following:

The 4th and 17th are as fine as any long holes in the country--regular testing three shotters. He goes on further, The 2nd, 7th, 10th, 12th, 15th, & 18th are all good drive and iron holes. The 17th crosses the water hazard twice, the first being a drive over the bay which juts in from the lake. There are five or six good drive and pitch holes, the 1st, 5th, 8th, 9th & 13th. I do not believe there is a better drive and iron hole in America then the 2nd. The 14th is a fine type of hole, calling for a fine drive and a fine brassie.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 02:40:15 AM by Tom Naccarato »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2008, 10:29:57 AM »
Tommy:

Your quote of the course description of the course lists the 17th as a par-4. Today it is a par-3 and, I believe, it appears that way on the painting of the layout in the pro shop that, I think, is dated from the 1930s.

Adding to the intrigue is the fact that the 18th was once a par-3.

Jeff:

Very few if any of Macdonald's, Raynor's or Banks's Short Holes came without the horseshoe or thumbprint feature. I'm hard pressed to think of one. On Short Holes that do not appear to have that feature, it seems they may have once existed but were lost over time; Yale, for instance.

From the limited amount of Emmet work I've seen, his short par-3 strategy is a hole of about 120 to 130 yards to a small green that is wider than it is deep with trouble on all sides with little internal movement other than the slope. This holds true for the 12th at Leatherstocking, the 3rd at Dudley (Mass.) Hill and the 18th at the non-existent Hob Nob Hill in Connecticut.

Kindest Regards,
Anthony



Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2008, 11:00:38 AM »
Tommy/Tony,
Couldn't it be said that the 12th at Leatherstocking meets some of the criteria for a 'short'?

After all, it fits the yardage, tests the short iron shot, has(or had) the surrounding sea of sand(something Macdonald added to his versions), is wider than deeper, is built on a rather square platform and the tee affords a great look at the green, something Macdonald preferred. George said that 'Short' was a ".....fairly generic par-3 common to many courses in the British Isles long before Macdonald began his quest for the better holes in Europe."
I don't know if it could be said that this hole is in the mold of Macdonald,  but it seems to me that it meets the 'generic' definition, with some nod to Mac.



 

« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 11:02:47 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2008, 11:09:08 AM »
Anthony,

Well, a short, wide green would make a lot of sense for a short hole - equal sense to a large green with compartments.  Never having spent a lot of time in the NE I am not qualified to really talk about Emmet architecture.  

Tommy's real question is just how inspired is the 12th by the short hole at NGLA.  It's similar length of course, and perhaps the similarities end there.  It seems Jay and the club pro think that it was inspired, based on timelines, relationships, and shot distance.  That all seems plausible.  Or, its just as plausible that Dev might have thought a short par 3 was a good idea without having to consult CBM on the matter and set forth to design one on his own, coming up with a smaller green for any number of reasons.  Hey, it could be that he was just trying to fit 18 holes on the property and really needed a short par 3 to do the trick.

Its just one of those endless, unwinnable questions/debates we get into on here from time to time, when trying to attribute not only the hole on the ground, but the thoughts in the mind of the gca.  In that sense, it just seemed like too tough a question for Jay to answer.  He sees similarities, Tommy doesn't see enough.  How much more can we debate that, at least civilly before things get out of hand? (insert smiley, because I am using quick reply)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom Naccarato

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2008, 11:26:29 AM »
Jim,
Absolutely. Just the look of it, and honestly, I've been trying to find some images of the hole to post here. (to no success)

My only point is that Jay references that the holes were inspired by NGLA. I found this ironic for some unknown reason. Something wasn't right. You see half of doing research on this stuff is either by luck or by gut feeling and call this a gut feeling. (In my case, big gut) The ironic thing is that there might be a possibility that "others" actually contributed to this design; also that the design is not Devereux Emmet's alone. He is more then likely one of the "others." In fact the possibility that the design credit belongs to William Tucker who possibly oversaw the work and construction, with the design and credit by committee.

So who are these "others?"

Thats the fun thing about doing research and what I've been trying to explain to Jay, who clearly doesn't want to have anything to do with it. is peeling the layers of the onion off and hopefully finding something sweet and tasty. I was hoping more to teach him a thing or two; to help him to some degree, because honestly he needs help BIG HELP. BIG PROFESSIONAL HELP. (for what its worth, I complimented Jay on his photography and offered as a sign of amends--some common ground which to stand. He refused with a BCC complaint to Ben, as if Ben would want to get further involved with Jay (or me for that matter) on this subject.) But getting back to the question, who are the others? Well, throw a blade of grass into the wind and maybe we can come across something in one of these issues of Golf Illustrated or American Golfer or some other publication or newspaper account of Otesaga Hotel's golf course, now known as Leatherstocking.

The truth is out there; and Jay is stupid enough to not know it. But its ironic that his writing--if you can call it that led us to this. the fact is that Dev collaborated with two widely known people, by the names of Charles Blair MacDonald and Seth Raynor.

There it is. I said it, and yes, ironically, another Merion-like controversy has now started. But it wasn't intended that way.


Tom Naccarato

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2008, 11:34:27 AM »
Jeff Brauer,
Please read Tony Pioppi's post on the first page. He and George are the one's the deserve most of the credit for uncovering this. They know the course better then the hotel and Dan Spooner. The question here is whose opinion matters more: Tony & George's or Jay's? Let me think about that one for a second.

Hmmmmm. Tony, A REAL, PROFESSIONAL Golf writer with no characteristics of being Walter Mitty. George, the biographer of C.B. MacDonald and soon, Seth Raynor or Jay Flemma.

You do the math Jeff.

John Foley

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2008, 11:38:01 AM »
Tommy:

Your quote of the course description of the course lists the 17th as a par-4. Today it is a par-3 and, I believe, it appears that way on the painting of the layout in the pro shop that, I think, is dated from the 1930s.

Adding to the intrigue is the fact that the 18th was once a par-3.


Guys - this is why I am asking what drawings exist.

I've heard two 9's we're done one in 1909 and an expansion in 1919. Did Dev do both?

I don't know the date of the painting in the grill room off the pro shop, but I 'm pretty sure that  it was done way later than any time Dev would have been involved.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Tom Naccarato

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2008, 11:44:05 AM »
John,
One thing I didn't make clear, is that my research is from the work that was done in 1919 to the article by Emmet in 1921, which I have a reference to being done by Tucker and by Emmet's article, "Others."

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2008, 11:47:29 AM »
Tommy,
I hope any further discussion can stay away from anything resembling the contentiousness of the Merion attribution threads. Frankly, I don't think that will happen as no one has any monetary or professional stake in the outcome.

What's the worst that SHOULD happen, we find out that this Emmet is really a collaboration and someone's cheeks get a little red for awhile? Big deal, history prevails and no one got hurt in the making.






"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George_Bahto

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2008, 11:51:48 AM »
OK - first, how about stopping the verbal wars - this crap really gets old?


An article about the ""New O-TE-SA-GA course in Cooperstown. N. Y." states in part what Tommy N wrote.



the last 2 holes at Leatherstocking were altered - they were done by RAYNOR - yes, Raynor, however it was not Seth Raynor!!

They a had a long time golf pro at the course who did some modifications. His name was Leslie Raynor.

...    and the 17th was originally a par-5 and th 18th, a par-3. I have info from notes when I was there in 1997 that said 18 was a "weak" par-3.

I think the present 18th green was the location of the par-3's green.


However, I still have a bit of a problem with who designed the course.


Mysterious information, if you will:

>  There were many Macdonald/Raynor footprints on the course when I first visited the course in 1996.

>  Noplace in the four-page article Dev wrote did he ever say anything about it being his course. Coincidence? probably, yes, but it you would think he would mention it.

>  Emmet was close friends with CBM and I personally think often Raynor plans were drawn and Emmet built the course. A good example of this is Riddles Bay in Bermuda. Emmet is credited with the course but I have either 2 or 3 instances, newspaper or magazine clippings, citing that Macdonald and Raynor were building Riddles Bay. (DO NOT ASK ME TO PRODUCE THESE ARTICLES RIGHT NOW, cause I'm not going to take the time to look them up right now because you might feel like he wants to be a contrarian).

>  more info: I have a 1941 scorecard showing the 17th a par-3 and the 18th a par-5 so those holes were changed before 1941. The card was part of the Ralph Kannedy scorecard collection and Ralph played with the pro, who signed the card "Leslie Raynor. Pro."

>  Stephen Clark, (the lawyer for Isaac Singer," was one of the Clark family heirs who, along with his brother Edward were responsible for the idea of building of the course. Stephen was close to C B Macdonald and was an early member of NGLA. Another "Singer" hired Raynor for two course in Florida - Paris Singer.   Lots of coincidences.

>  I also have a note I made in 1996 where I wrote (perhaps erroneously? and then, perhaps NOT) that the course was "credited to William Raynor”. So,  now who was William Raynor you ask? \


That was Seth Raynor nickname.

>  a question for Emmet fans:
Don't you think Leatherstocking is a lot different than most, if not all, Emmet courses?

so to me there are still a lot of unanswered questions about this great course

(again stop bickering - geez !!)
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Craig Disher

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Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2008, 12:31:14 PM »
There's more to be found I'm sure but this small item from Golf Illustrated in 1919 is interesting:

"With the care of the links of the Century Country Club at White Plains, the Wykagyl Golf Club at New Rochelle and the O-te-sa-ga layout at Cooperstown, as well as having charge of the rebuilding of the Hudson River Country Club course, it doesn't seem as though William Tucker, links architect, will have many idle moments this season. The Hudson River organization, formerly the Saegkill Golf Club has an 18-hole circuit measuring a little more than 5,000 yards, and it is the intention practically to rebuild the whole layout to have a total length of 6,500 yards."

There's more here on Hudson River - which has been credited to Donald Ross (Klein dates his work as 1916) - than on Leatherstocking but it does suggest that we don't yet know the whole story.

TN - is this the article you're using for the info on Tucker?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 12:38:23 PM by Craig Disher »

Tom Naccarato

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2008, 12:45:59 PM »
Craig, Yes that is the one.

If you look further, you'll find that Tucker became a noted source for green keeping Q&A's on Golf Illustrated. He was also the designer and builder of many courses in New York. From research, it would seem that Tucker had his hands in a lot of things. He was to quote Golf Illustrated, From one of the great Scottish Golfing families....
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 12:51:20 PM by Tom Naccarato »

Jay Flemma

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2008, 05:38:14 PM »
OK - first, how about stopping the verbal wars - this crap really gets old?


>  a question for Emmet fans:
Don't you think Leatherstocking is a lot different than most, if not all, Emmet courses?

(again stop bickering - geez !!)

I agree on both counts.  Yes, emmet is different here than at other places...more footprints of raynor are present than at say eisenhower park or congo or GCGC.  One theme of my piece was to highlight those similarities.


JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2008, 05:54:59 PM »
OK - first, how about stopping the verbal wars - this crap really gets old?


>  a question for Emmet fans:
Don't you think Leatherstocking is a lot different than most, if not all, Emmet courses?

(again stop bickering - geez !!)

I agree on both counts.  Yes, emmet is different here than at other places...more footprints of raynor are present than at say eisenhower park or congo or GCGC.  One theme of my piece was to highlight those similarities.



Could that be because of the terrain moreso than the architecture?  I don't know about Eisenhower Park, but GCGC is very flat compared to the mountainous Leatherstocking. 

However, it seems that a few features on the course are very different from the rest of the lot, particularly the greens at 17 and 18.  Most of the greens are very small except for the two uphill fours at 2 and 7.  Yet 17 and particularly 18 are massive.  I loved the green at 18 personally.  I thought it was a great way to end the round, especially after a hole that is so compelling tee to green.  But it certainly isn't like anything on the rest of the course.  This indicates that it may have been built by someone other than Emmet.

Could Willie Tucker been involved with the nine-holer at the end of the lake?  I've read many times that Emmet built the course in 1909 and built a second nine in 1919.

As for Emmet's short par three template, I think it also holds true for 2 at GCGC, only with an angle green.

And so what if Emmet didn't design all of the existing course?  It certainly appears that some of the current holes weren't Emmet originals.  Does it really do anything to hurt the pedigree of the course?  With the possible exception of 17, every hole has a significant amount of quirk and strategic interest that constitutes a great design.  The most important thing is to realize who built these holes.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 06:07:52 PM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jay Flemma

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2008, 06:16:49 PM »
I dont know that I'd call GCGC flat...4 has nice rolls to it, 15 goes pretty severely uphill...a lot of hills roll gently up and down.  Granted its not as hilly as LGC, but it's not as flat as Eisenhower.

Maybe Raynor was involved to some degree, but it seems to me that if CBM/raynor were involved, wouldn't we would have seen even more "footprints" in the form of more template holes?  If CBM/raynor were involved, wouldn't it have looked a lot more like the typical raynors we see?  With the four different par-3s for openers?  dan spooner and I both went over the course maps and there seemed to be no redan, eden, or biarritz.  CBM/Raynor would have probly used them at the par-3s, but the map doesn't indicate these shapes and lengths.  WHat about the fact that nine were built in 1909 and the other 9 in 1919.  So did Raynor/CBM come back again in 1919?

John foley and Jim kennedy are on the right track I think.  I think emmet built it, talked around the water cooler with CBM and Seth for ideas, borrowed some ideas for holes CBM and Seth used, fit the rest to the land as he found it with his own tweaks - like his version of the short at 12, as JNC said.  It certainly doesn't look as much of a raynor as Sleepy hollow or charleston or yale.

At the end of the day, what the club says goes.  Right now, they say Emmet, as does everything we've read till now.  George, as I read your post, I think you disagree that Tucker was involved originally?  and in 1919?

Moreover, at the end of the day, my piece's theory is right - you see alot of what raynor and CBM did at LGC.  That's what I said all along.  First my dtractors tried to say no it isn't, then they tried say it's more than I thought at first.  That's flip-flopping AND splitting hairs.  Moreover, my piece is for everyone - not just people so obsessed with GCA that they argue minutia like the American economy was at stake.  It's simply a nice travelogue so people will go see the course.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 06:26:54 PM by Jay Flemma »

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2008, 06:42:34 PM »
I dont know that I'd call GCGC flat...4 has nice rolls to it, 15 goes pretty severely uphill...a lot of hills roll gently up and down.  Granted its not as hilly as LGC, but it's not as flat as Eisenhower.

Maybe Raynor was involved to some degree, but it seems to me that if CBM/raynor were involved, wouldn't we would have seen even more "footprints" in the form of more template holes?  If CBM/raynor were involved, wouldn't it have looked a lot more like the typical raynors we see?  With the four different par-3s for openers?  dan spooner and I both went over the course maps and there seemed to be no redan, eden, or biarritz.  CBM/Raynor would have probly used them at the par-3s, but the map doesn't indicate these shapes and lengths.  WHat about the fact that nine were built in 1909 and the other 9 in 1919.  So did Raynor/CBM come back again in 1919?

John foley and Jim kennedy are on the right track I think.  I think emmet built it, talked around the water cooler with CBM and Seth for ideas, borrowed some ideas for holes CBM and Seth used, fit the rest to the land as he found it with his own tweaks - like his version of the short at 12, as JNC said.  It certainly doesn't look as much of a raynor as Sleepy hollow or charleston or yale.

At the end of the day, what the club says goes.  Right now, they say Emmet, as does everything we've read till now.  George, as I read your post, I think you disagree that Tucker was involved originally?  and in 1919?

Moreover, at the end of the day, my piece's theory is right - you see alot of what raynor and CBM did at LGC.  That's what I said all along.  First my dtractors tried to say no it isn't, then they tried say it's more than I thought at first.  That's flip-flopping AND splitting hairs.  Moreover, my piece is for everyone - not just people so obsessed with GCA that they argue minutia like the American economy was at stake.  It's simply a nice travelogue so people will go see the course.

I fully appreciate that your piece is meant to show Raynor's influence on Leatherstocking.  Indeed, his footprints are all over the place.  Punchbowl greens, echelon bunkering, a reverse redan 9th?  These are all classic Raynor features.  However, it is still critical to get all the facts correct.  12 is not a short hole and is not right out of NGLA, but it certainly has some C/R/B influence.  18 is not a 'Cape' hole per se, but the diagonal carry is something MacDonald and Raynor used very often.  2 Green has a similar left-to-right tilt to 15 at GCGC, but it plays totally differently.  There are many greens with such a tilt, so it is hard to establish a direct relationship.  7, while not an "Alps" hole, has many Raynor-esque characteristics.  It is important to make the distinction between influence and imitation.

As for the origins of the course, I disagree that the club has the final say.  Very often club records are not well-kept or lost through some sort of disaster.  Therefore, club info may be incomplete.  If different and accurate origins for a course are established by an outside source, these should be accepted as the final word.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mike_Cirba

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2008, 07:23:59 PM »
Paging James Morgan, Paging James Morgan...white courtesy phone please.