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Jay Flemma

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2008, 12:45:17 PM »
I'd rather read 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 of JK's most outlandish, strange, and possibly obnoxious posts than this crap . . .

Guys, please.

I've played Leatherstocking a bunch of times. I love the course. Why can't we just discuss things in a more friendly manner? I can question anyone about anything more kindly than many on this site seem to able to do. Maybe I just don't get it . . .

-Ted

ted, that's what I'm trying to do...I have never contacted tommy at all, he just seeks a fight with me, and the good of the site be damned.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 12:47:22 PM by Jay Flemma »

Mike Mosely

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2008, 01:14:42 PM »
Hey, Uncle George, where the Hell are you man, cuz I'M OUTTA HERE TOO!? I want to hang with you for a while. Why don't you and me get outta these leather stockings and put on some good old fashioned cotton socks and go get a drink or three somewhere?! Mike Mosely, where the Hell have you gotten yourself to? Get in here with George and me and I'll buy you one.

Thank you for the invite.  In fact, if could have gotten the day free, I would have driven down to The Barn.

I'd have chimed in before, but being told to eat a shit sandwich rare really curbs your enthusiasm for the site, especially over an esoteric point of how much credit someone else should *maybe* take for the design.

I think the ferocity of nit-picking of Jay was un-called for, and the delight in doing it worse still.  All he did was write a nice travel-log everyone could enjoy.  It was never supposed to be some white paper.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 01:20:25 PM by Mike Mosely »

TEPaul

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2008, 01:21:06 PM »
"I'd have chimed in before, but being told to eat a shit sandwich rare really curbs your enthusiasm for the site."


MikeM:

What?? Excuse me?? Did someone actually say something remotely like that to you on here? If so, I think I better seriously consider deregistering and leaving this website for good. I can't be around people who say things like that. I'm too refined and far too sensitive to be exposed to stuff like that.

A "shit sandwich"?? Are you serious? That's the kind of thing like "Shank" that people like us should not only never say but we shouldn't even THINK words like that.

Mike Mosely

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2008, 01:24:13 PM »

Mike Mosely, Get ready to eat a shit sandwich, rare.

Thanks to Jay's inaccuracies, many talented researchers are finding out at this very moment that the possibility exists that Devereux Emmet may not have even designed Leatherstocking, but only helped out with some other "talented" individuals.



It's right here.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2008, 01:54:21 PM »
Mike,
This place gets rough once in a while, but I look at it like doin' time in the big house*, you find out that you're not the biggest p***k in the place and you're real happy to find out that you're not the biggest a**hole.  ;) 



*not from first hand knowledge   ;D   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Mosely

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2008, 01:56:05 PM »
Atta boy Jim!  A ray of sunshine in my thread at last:)  Now wee just need Cirba again.  Hey Mike C!  Maybe it's not an alps at all!  Maybe it's a modified alps-short!  A Shalps.  Calling George B!  We have a new hole for you to build. :D

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2008, 01:57:53 PM »
I'd rather read 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 of JK's most outlandish, strange, and possibly obnoxious posts than this crap . . .

Guys, please.

I've played Leatherstocking a bunch of times. I love the course. Why can't we just discuss things in a more friendly manner? I can question anyone about anything more kindly than many on this site seem to able to do. Maybe I just don't get it . . .

-Ted

ted, that's what I'm trying to do...I have never contacted tommy at all, he just seeks a fight with me, and the good of the site be damned.

Jay,

My post wasn't meant to be a reflection on you or your participation on this thread;
Not one bit.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.

-Ted


Jay Flemma

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2008, 02:11:26 PM »
I totally understand Ted.  Thank you, and everyone else for the kind IMs and messages.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2008, 06:29:25 PM »
Mike Cirba,
You can really see some of Emmet's wild bunkering at the NLE Hob Nob hill GC in Salisbury (AKA Fulton Estate Course, AKA Salisbury Links in your ad).

The 1934 aerial that can be found at: http://cslib.cdmhost.com/
insert 08187 in the search box (upper r. hand corner of the page) and voila, it will appear (If this link doesn't work you'll have to go back and find Tony Pioppi's thread).

One of Emmet's sisters lived in Stockbridge, Ma. and one of his cousins lived in Salisbury (she married William B. Rand, whose descendant is our present first selectman).

The reason I posted this link is that I think the Hob Nob Hill aerial offers up some truly untouched Emmet. It is very likely that nothing happened to this course, as it was only about 20+ years old when I.K. Fulton's(the owner) wife closed it right after he died, ca. early 1940s. A friend of mine used to caddie there as a boy (he skipped school one afternoon when the word came down that Gene Sarazen was up there playing), and his mother wrote to him that the course was closing when he was stationed in the Pacific during WW11.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2008, 09:08:28 PM »
Mike Cirba,
You can really see some of Emmet's wild bunkering at the NLE Hob Nob hill GC in Salisbury (AKA Fulton Estate Course, AKA Salisbury Links in your ad).

The 1934 aerial that can be found at: http://cslib.cdmhost.com/
insert 08187 in the search box (upper r. hand corner of the page) and voila, it will appear (If this link doesn't work you'll have to go back and find Tony Pioppi's thread).

One of Emmet's sisters lived in Stockbridge, Ma. and one of his cousins lived in Salisbury (she married William B. Rand, whose descendant is our present first selectman).

The reason I posted this link is that I think the Hob Nob Hill aerial offers up some truly untouched Emmet. It is very likely that nothing happened to this course, as it was only about 20+ years old when I.K. Fulton's(the owner) wife closed it right after he died, ca. early 1940s. A friend of mine used to caddie there as a boy (he skipped school one afternoon when the word came down that Gene Sarazen was up there playing), and his mother wrote to him that the course was closing when he was stationed in the Pacific during WW11.



Jim Kennedy,

The more I learn the more I'm becoming convinced the Dev Emmett was extremely underrated and as much a brilliant architect as the lot of them!

I'm not sure if this link will do what I'm hoping, but how about this type of diagonal bunkering pattern?!   Pretty awesome, in my book!

http://cslib.cdmhost.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p4005coll10&CISOPTR=6009&DMSCALE=25&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMX=1471&DMY=723&DMMODE=viewer&DMTEXT=%2008187&REC=1&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0

Mike_Cirba

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2008, 09:26:15 PM »
Jim,

One other thought is simply that i wish Mr. James Morgan would make an appearance on one of these threads, because he knows more about Emmett than anyone I know, and I do hope he writes a book about him someday..

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2008, 10:06:28 PM »
Does this go on around here every day still?   Kind of ironic that as I posted earlier today, I used to live and die by this site.  A combination of the contentiousness of the banter, and my lack  of free time have conspired to make me a marginal visitor at best.  Ironic I say because I was lured back in to GCA today by a post to a long lost thread I had started prompted a notification in my email.  I came back to read it, and replied to a couple of threads.

I jumped into this thread kind of by chance, because I have always wanted to see Leatherstocking for many years.  How dissapointing to see that this still seems to be the norm on here.  I am not assigning blame, as I dont know (and dont really care to know) all the history and behind the scenes history.

I just want to say that I have met most all of you veterans involved, and I am proud to say that I consider each of you a friend through my old days here at GCA.  And I just want to say in the words of Reginald Denny, "cant we all just get along."

I said in a previous post today that I hope to start spending more time on here again, and I look forward to rekindling some long lost friendships on here.  I hope this is the exception and not the rule to typical threads on GCA.com
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Mike_Cirba

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2008, 10:10:03 PM »
Daryl,

Stick around.

More voices of tolerance and moderation are always needed here and your's is a welcome one from the past.

There is still a lot of good stuff to be found, and I'm sensing that this group is starting to find it's legs again.

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2008, 10:16:24 PM »
I've been following this discussion of Leatherstocking with great interest because that course is a great favorite of mine.  I often judge a course according to how well I can retrace each hole.  With Leatherstocking, I can still trace each hole in my mind though it has been nearly 15 years since I last played it.  Each hole has a distinctive and interesting character.

One point I've questioned during this discussion has to do with the opinion expressed that Devereux Emmet was a "Disciple" of C.B. MacDonald and Seth Raynor.  Though I'm aware that Emmet was involved with MacDonald during the creation of National Golf Links, I know of no evidence that he was following in the footsteps of MacDonald, nor Raynor.  In fact, Emmet was well along in his career before Raynor launched his.   As we try to understand the chain of influence in golf course design, we should make sure our attributions are solidly based.   

Ed

 

Mike_Cirba

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2008, 10:53:20 PM »
Ed Homsey,

Without wanting to pick any sides in this discussion, I'm really happy you offered your perspective here.

I think that in many ways, Emmett was the one who set a lot of things in motion in the US, and he's even the guy who drew a lot of the overseas sketches that Macdonald used for NGLA, not to mention being a very big contributor to that project.

His original courses were superb, and the sad part is that probably only about 20% of what he designed/built is still around in generally pristine condition.

TEPaul

Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2008, 09:14:55 AM »
"One point I've questioned during this discussion has to do with the opinion expressed that Devereux Emmet was a "Disciple" of C.B. MacDonald and Seth Raynor.  Though I'm aware that Emmet was involved with MacDonald during the creation of National Golf Links, I know of no evidence that he was following in the footsteps of MacDonald, nor Raynor.  In fact, Emmet was well along in his career before Raynor launched his.   As we try to understand the chain of influence in golf course design, we should make sure our attributions are solidly based."


Ed:

I agree with you on this constant "disciple" thing on here. Not to take a thing away from C.B. Macdonald but some of these people on here seem to have gotten a bit too carried away with Macdonald. Perhaps they should beginning checking some timelines and such.

Macdonald himself wrote that before NGLA there were basically three really good courses in America and one of them was GCGC. That was done by Emmet, so maybe Macdonald was just as much a disciple of Emmet's as Emmet was of Macdonald's, if, in fact, either one was even a disciple of the other at all.  ;)   

Furthermore, there have been some on here who've made a pretty convincing case (supported by historical writing) that in many ways the direction and styles of American architecture purposefully departed from some of the architectural ideas of Macdonald probably beginning in the mid-teens. Others on here appear to have treated that revelation as some kind of architectural heresy.

Thank God for Tillinghast and how constantly and how well he chronicled just about this entire architectural evolution in America!

« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:22:01 AM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leatherstocking G.C. in Cooperstown
« Reply #91 on: December 10, 2008, 01:35:45 PM »
Ed Homsey,
If you look back at this thread I believe you'll find that the only person who suggested Emmet was a disciple of CBM was Jay (in his article, and he'll probably discard that idea if he ever again mentions Emmet ;D ). None of the guys on this thread who have done any serious research on CBM, SR, or DE has done so. Nor have they suggested that Emmet was only following in CBM's footsteps. Some interesting facts, and other bits of the story, have been forwarded by them, but that's all.

Bringing Macdonald into the conversation is like exposing a raw nerve to the air for some people. Add Raynor's name to the mix and you can bring out the straight jackets.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon