What is Slow Play?

[Charlie Goerges]

The slowest courses thread and some other comments have gotten me wondering about the whole concept. What exactly is slow play and what makes it so?

I used to think that a course had a set amount of time (for completing play) that was based on yardage, par, difficulty, green to tee distance etcetera. I no longer think this is the case. Now I think it is situational and highly dependent on the person(s) playing. I’ve played rounds in 2.5 hours and 5.5 hours that I remember, neither of which felt slow to me. I have played rounds of many various timeframes that have felt slow.

The only think I know for sure is that when it has felt slow, my group often had to stand and wait to hit shots on many holes. What do you think?

[Anthony Gray]

  Charlie,

  I think you hit on it. Waiting. Slow is hard to define, but you know when it happens.

  Anthony

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Charlie:

As I'm sure you know, courses can be given time ratings (and many are).  It's a useful bit of information.  Some are geared to take longer than others, primarily due to difficulty, distance from green to tee, the obvious factors.

So I would trust those as a set amount of time a course should reasonably take.  Of course one can go faster or slower than that set time - and the ratings I have seen seemed to allow for dawdling US-style play - but that is at least a decent standard.

As for if a round "feels" slow, that of course will be up to the individual and his standards.  Take a Scot who's used to their very fast time-rated courses (meaning tees are right next to greens) and put him on a US "cart-ball" course playing with the typical American player, if the round takes 4hrs 15 mins the Scot will likely complain it took forever and the American will praise the swift pace.  Obviously this is a HUGE generalization not meant to be real; it's meant as an illustration that it all depends on what one is used to.

So what feels slow to me?

You nailed it - it's rarely a certain elapsed time, but rather how much I am forced to wait.  If I wait on a lot of shots, not only will the round likely BE slow, but it will FEEL really slow - pretty much no matter what.

TH

[Tim Bert]

All I know is that I prefer to be behind the slow group than to be in the slow group.  While for some being in the slow group may mean less technical waiting, since it is your group holding folks up, I get extremely frustrated when my group is holding people up and I can't control the situation.  I become rushed, which doesn't speed up the slow players, and makes me play worse and actually slow down.  It dampens my fun factor 10x.

At least being behind the slow group, I can sit back and daydream or soak in the surroundings or talk to the others in the group or do something to take my mind off of it.

Of course, best of all is to be in front of the slow group.  No pressure from behind and play at your leisure!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Charlie,
If a course has done a thorough analysis of the time it should reasonably take to play, then anything more than that amount starts crossing over into slow. It's different for just about every course built.

On the other hand, if 'you' like to play faster than the pace that's been set, it will feel slow. This is no different that driving down the highway at 80 in a 65 MPH zone, you are going too fast and need to throttle back and merge with the flow of traffic. If you cannot, then you should only be out there (the highway or the golf course) when it's empty, or nearly so.



  

  

[JMEvensky]

With apologies to Sartre,slow play is other people.

[Charlie Goerges]

With apologies to Sartre,slow play is other people.

Nice one

Everyone made good points RE slow play. There are many ideas roiling about in my head, but a couple bug me. There is a difference between Time-a quantitative measurement, and a descriptor like Slow-a qualitative judgement. Slow, by definition, is a relative term. If there is something that is moving slowly, there is also something moving quickly.  So for instance, what if there is a shotgun scramble on the course? If everyone is taking 5.5 hours to finish, is it slow? There is obviously no way to go any faster. 

Also, Tim B. mentioned the uncomfortable feeling of being in the slow group. I hate that feeling. It doesn't happen often to me anymore because I rarely get to play these days, and when I do, I'm with people I know, but perhaps that can help define slow. Slow for a group is not necessarily playing in more than 4 hours (or whatever is the rated time), slow is when the group behind you is waiting.

On a related note, I've found that if I deviate at all from the direct path between where I'm standing and the ball, I'll invariably end up making someone wait. I don't do this a lot, but if I want to wander over to the edge of a steep ravine, for instance, and look over to see what's down there, by the time I get to the green the group behind is waiting.

[Tom Huckaby]

Charlie:

Again it's all going to depend on the individual and what he's used to.  A 5.5 hour shotgun won't feel slow to the regulars of our Men's Club at Santa Teresa - our tournaments only very very rarely go quicker than that.  But of course to my Average Scot that will again feel painfully glacial.

As for wandering about and making someone wait, do you expect differently?  Though of course if you want to do that expeditious you certainly could as well.  Just wander after you hit, while the others are hitting and make sure to get to your ball when it's your turn.

And of course only the most selfish don't care - or don't get uncomfortable - when they make the group behind wait.  What sucks is that at least here in CA there are a lot of such golfers who really don't care.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Charlie,
You can gauge what is fast and what is slow, but first you must leave your preferred pace of play in your trunk and be ready to accept the pace of play set by the golf course. Then you can see if you came in under that number or over it when you get in.

And that's really the only way to gauge if you played 'fast' or 'slow' on any given course.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

slow play def:  An occurence of much frustration to those players who play quickly.
Often found amongst the current college players, who insist on taking 5 hours to complete  a competitive round.

Origin....Poor rule officials and a fear to impose penalties when appropriate.
Abusers of said rules...USGA officials who fail to determine who the slow player in the group is and blame everybody!

[JMEvensky]

Frankly,I think the problem of slow play is unsolvable.

For a grotesque generalization,I think the biggest problem is the situation of having 4-somes of "good" players,4-somes of "bad" players,and 4-somes of some combination good/bad mixed in together on a tee sheet.

I think the slow-play/pace-of-play gorilla in the corner is that,AS A GENERAL RULE,the golfer who hits it the fewest times will play the fastest.So long as lower handicap golfers play behind higher handicaps,there will always be problems.

If my bold faced disclaimer wasn't sufficient,I believe that a 4-some of 0's will generally get around the golf course faster than a 4-some of 10's.Making up the time required by 40 extra swings is difficult.

I concede the inevitable exceptions that will soon be cited.

[C. Squier]

slow play def:  An occurence of much frustration to those players who play quickly.
Often found amongst the current college players, who insist on taking 5 hours to complete  a competitive round.

I never knew that many rounds that took over 5 hours was because college tournaments were being played ahead of us.  Incredible!

Sarcasm aside, college competitive golf and what we play are two totally different things.  They're likely playing for scholarships at worst, future professional spots at best.  If they want to take a little extra time because they're playing for their future, so be it....they have the entire course to themselves, they're not slowing down open play at all, because there is none.

Slow play is a result of not knowing proper pace of play etiquette.  Golf is a social game on the tee box and on the greens....in between, go play your own damn ball.  Too many golfers insist on holding hands in the fairway.  It doesn't even have to be "ready" golf, you can still play honors and get it done in a reasonable amount of time.  To me, reasonable is 3:45 for a 4-some with 4:15 being at the high side, 3:30 being ideal.  Anything more than 4:30 at ANY course and I'm starting to lose interest. 

I blame the beer cart.  Worst thing ever to be introduced to golf.  Not because of alcohol, but because it teaches people they can completely stop what they're doing, waste time no matter what anyone else is doing and takes the emphasis off getting the ball into the hole. 

[Cliff Hamm]

How right you are...over the past year or so my slowest rounds have been when my wife and are were paired with low single digit golfers.  Happened twice and on both occasions we were the slow players.  They paced yardage, had a GPS cart but that wasn't good enough, marked every putt, looked at every putt from every angle, etc. etc.  It was just awful...Really bad golf may lead to slow rounds but I'm not convinced that excellent golfers as a group are quicker than bogey golfers. 

[George Pazin]

I concede the inevitable exceptions that will soon be cited.

Surprised it hasn't been yet....

No surprise here, I'm a HHer, but I think you are very wrong. There are good golfers and bad golfers, and there are slow golfers and fast golfers. I have yet to see any correlation between the two. Look at recent examples expressed by MWP and Clint - couple that with the Bob Rotellas of the world telling everyone the way to play best is to play the same way all the time and you have a recipe for disaster.

The problem will remain unsolvable unless someone in golf course management has the guts to stand up to slow golfers. Anyone can see where play slows down, someone just needs to have the courage to take action.

Where's JohnK (the ornery one, not the thoughtful one ) ranting about folks wanting to play too fast?

[Anthony Gray]

  Let me again say, You know it when you see it.


  Anthony

[Sean_A]

For me, slow play starts with the course.  How is it setup and could it be done in a way to get players around quicker?   What I do know is that if management want to get 4 balls around in four hours they cannot leave rough in a state where balls can be easily lost.  I KNOW it can easily take a 4 ball 1 hour more to get around on a championship (or something close to it) course with nasty rough AND that is from daily tees.  Sure, players are to blame as well, but the bottom line is the course has to accommodate all players.  If it can't and it still wants to get a 4 ball round in four hours, it shouldn't accept customers not playing to a certain standard or it needs to increase the time allowance.  I know I would rather see the tee markers set at 6500 tops and the rough cut to a easily manageable height rather than exclude people, but I am not in the business.  

Ciao  

[Charlie Goerges]

What is interesting to me is that we've had a number of different (and conflicting) reasons and all them are true at least some of the time. I don't get out enough, because it seems when I do I'm either playing a 5.5 hour scramble or playing 9 in about 2 hours or less and so I don't experience the frustration as much as some who have posted.

Where's JohnK (the ornery one, not the thoughtful one ) ranting about folks wanting to play too fast?

I'm no John K, but I will say that sometimes I think the focus gets driven from having fun to playing fast. Clint mentioned golf is social at the tees and greens, but those are the places where I (and my playing partners) play fastest (EDIT: fastest when not playing a scramble). As long as one isn't waiting for another group, the tee should only take about 2 minutes but with frequent pauses of silence, but the long walk or ride to a drive, while not much longer than a couple minutes has no interruptions for silence. It seems like the perfect time to talk. Not that one should follow one's playing partners all over the place, but a reasonable amount of overlap should be tolerated.

[C. Sturges]

Do you think the PGA Tour is helping the cause of slow play?  Most tournament rounds are played in the 5+ time frame and the majority of golfers see this and think is fine.  I heard a ranger/marshall ask a group to speed up, and one of his ideas was not to take three practice swings.  The slow group aswered with they see the tour players take 3-4 practive swings.  I think Sergio was mentioned. 
We all want to play better and dream of winning the Open.  If I play slow, like the tour players, maybe my game will get better.
Hope this is not the case.

[Tom Huckaby]

CS - I'd agree that the example set by Tour pros is A cause of slow play.  Far too many golfers do emulate them, and they do play painfully slow in general.

But it is not THE cause for rounds to "feel" slow (not that you said this).  Give me 15 minute tee intervals and I doubt the round will feel slow even at a course packed with tour emulators.

Overcrowded courses make play feel slow.

TH

[C. Squier]

Clint mentioned golf is social at the tees and greens, but those are the places where I (and my playing partners) play fastest.

Just so my point isn't misinterpreted, I mean that everyone naturally needs to meet at the tee box and green.  Have your conversations there.  If I'm a fairway over, there is no need for everyone else to stop what they're doing to watch me try to hack it back into play.  Even when playing w/ carts, grab a few clubs and go find your ball.  No need for your cart partner to need to be with you at all times.  

It's funny, whenever we walk, nobody cares where you hit the ball....everyone plays their own shot and walks from point A to point B.  But when carts are involved, all of a sudden we're siamese twins.  That is where I will concede to ardent walkers (Melvyn) that carts can be terribly slow.  

A good player can still do all of the pre-shot routine stuff they want to and still be quick about it.  If you have a 30 second routine, start it while your playing partner is about ready to hit.  Why wait until their ball has come to a rest to start?  You can be a Rotella disciple and still play quickly....you just need to stop fixating on what everyone else on the course is doing.  

[George Pazin]

What is interesting to me is that we've had a number of different (and conflicting) reasons and all them are true at least some of the time. I don't get out enough, because it seems when I do I'm either playing a 5.5 hour scramble or playing 9 in about 2 hours or less and so I don't experience the frustration as much as some who have posted.

Where's JohnK (the ornery one, not the thoughtful one ) ranting about folks wanting to play too fast?

I'm no John K, but I will say that sometimes I think the focus gets driven from having fun to playing fast. Clint mentioned golf is social at the tees and greens, but those are the places where I (and my playing partners) play fastest (EDIT: fastest when not playing a scramble). As long as one isn't waiting for another group, the tee should only take about 2 minutes but with frequent pauses of silence, but the long walk or ride to a drive, while not much longer than a couple minutes has no interruptions for silence. It seems like the perfect time to talk. Not that one should follow one's playing partners all over the place, but a reasonable amount of overlap should be tolerated.

Charlie, you have not been involved in these arguments enough to know that JohnK (tOOntTO) is the only person in the world who worries about playing too fast. You are forgiven for not knowing this.

Your points are of course very real, but I can count on one finger - or less - the number of times I've felt unduly rushed, whereas I can't possibly count high enough - and I was a math major (read:geek) in college (some would say now as well) - to enumerate the number of times I've encountered brutally slow play.

[Charlie Goerges]

George and Clint,

I get you. I'm just trying to come at the slow play issue from the other direction. As I see it, the goal isn't fast play, the goal is fun. It just so happens that slow play, or more specifically waiting, seems less compatible with fun than fast play. If the problem is unsolvable as JMEvensky stated, then we have a problem. I don't think it's unsolvable, but I'm curious about what can be done to solve it. To that end, this thread and the other one have been informative.

For my part, I have found that when play is taking a lot of time (i.e. everyone's playing slow), changing my expectations and habits goes a long way toward increasing my enjoyment.

[Eric_Terhorst]

What is slow play? Slow play is an effect.  The causes have mostly been described already, but IMO are, listed in order of importance:

1) At public courses, management practices dominated by a focus on revenue generation at the expense of what Charlie calls "fun" and a consumer that is tolerant of slow play.  I personally would rather pay more, see fewer golfers on the course, and play faster.  It seems like most people would rather pay less and wait more. 
2) At all courses, poor course design and setup--designs (which could be described as poor), like Erin Hills, or course maintenance practices, that make play at a good pace improbable.
3) At all courses, inconsiderate golfers.  It's startling to me how few golfers understand the concept "be ready to hit when it's your turn."  Pre-shot routine?  Please, take it to Q-school pal, you're putting me to sleep.

For my part, I have found that when play is taking a lot of time (i.e. everyone's playing slow), changing my expectations and habits goes a long way toward increasing my enjoyment.

Charlie, this attitude is a slippery slope to mediocrity.  Do you want to pay $50 for a bottle of wine, get swill, and "change your expectations" of the winemaker so that you'll enjoy it more? 

Slow play is not an unsolvable problem--don't architects, course owners, and supers have the tools to make an impact (to the good or bad!)? 

And consumers can vote with their dollars....

[Mark Pritchett]

Does the cart contribute to slow play?  Often my group walks and we usually play at a good pace (less than 4 hours) but are rarely waiting on the group in front of us.  If we were riding we would most likely "catch" the group ahead of us and wait.  Also the group behind us (in carts) catches us and waits.  If they were walking they would probably not wait nearly as often if at all.

It seems to me the cart promotes "hurry up and wait" syndrome.

[Charlie Goerges]

Interesting point Mark. You mentioned the time (under 4 hours), but even at under four hours the group on carts was waiting. So it is the differential that causes the problem. Mentioned on this thread were also the differentials between low handicaps and high handicaps, between the skill level required by the course and the skill level possessed by the players, and between the expectations of different groups whatever their skill level. I don't know if that means anything. Obviously these differentials are not the only causes listed.

Eric, I think all of your listed causes contribute, I don't think the slippery slope argument holds for my attitude. I literally meant that I'm making the best of a bad situation. If I'm in the midst of 5.5 hour round, especially if it's in a scramble, what should I do?

Now if my local course is packing the tee sheet and not encouraging (much less enforcing) fast play, then I can see the analogy. In that case, I won't buy another bottle.