Should Mounds be Added

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've noticed the absence of an architectural feature in recent times.

The mound or knob just short of the green or just into the green.

This can create havoc for front pin positions, and place interesting demands on the golfer, especially with different wind conditions.

Do you favor more of these obstacles on a golf course ?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Patrick,
Todd E. added a very cool little mound in front of the reachable par 5 17th at Barona. If I remember, shivas wasn't a big fan of the mound, but I thought it was well placed to disrupt a running second shot that wasn't placed perfectly. It would have little or no effect on an aerial third, thus I thought it was a good strategic addition to the hole.

[Dave_Miller]

Patrick:  
Are you talking about the type of mounds Donald Ross might have around certain greens or just a mound or nob in front to give everyone something to think about?
Best
Dave

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Excellent point!

We had a great mound apparently right in the front of the approach of one of our medium length par 4s! It must have been sizable because I can see it on an aerial!!

But the membership didn't like it back then and had it removed. I don't remember whether Gil Hanse recommended restoring it or not but if he had it probably would have been voted down.

It's too bad, I think they can be very interesting!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Miller,

It's more of a knob, about 2-3 feet high.
It's usually right in front of a green, sometimes slightly off center, and sometimes partially or fully into the green.

I think the 18th at Turnberry has one.

It is a wonderful little feature, inexpensive to construct, that creates "mental turbulence" when playing a hole with a forward pin position, and if the course is windswept it seems to take on more strategic importance.

TEPaul,

Why would the membership vote on a component piece of a restoration, or were you just relaying your feel for the membership's acceptability of such a feature.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I hate to sound like a broken record but you really need to get out more.  

If I could pinpoint one aspect of Pinon Hills that makes the green complexes so interesting, day after day, it would be the mounding near, infront of, and all around some of the greens. Combined with the green shapes and interior contours makes this place interesting, exciting and sometimes frustrating, to play.

[corey miller]

Prairie dunes #11 has a really neat mound in front of the green which can be seen in the pictures in the course profile on the site

[A_Clay_Man]

When Don Mahaffey and I toured the country club of the desert we chuckled at the use of the single mound at many of the green fronts. Some even had little bunkers at their base. We chuckled because we thought they were cool and a wonderful design element into those rather massive greens.

Didn't we Don?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adam,
Yeah, we had fun that day. Those weren't really mounds, more like ant hills, and those with bunkers were especially interesting considering the size of the bunkers. Some so small that there would never be an argument about whether to hand rake, as a machine rake wouldn't fit inside them! Dye may have taken the use of small mounds to an extreme at CC of the Desert.

[A_Clay_Man]

On Pg's backnine the 13th hole has the knoll that probably epitomizes exactly what Patrick is describing,
With out that knoll or mound the hole would be rather bland and the wonderful, unexpected, sometimes predictable, kicks wouldn't occur. Also, when the Pin is cut near and/or behind this feature, it really makes for the best players to at least attempt thinking.

The hole is  307 yds. with dunesland as a frame. A second knoll exisit on the same side as the green front one, but it is back on the leftside of the fairway (100-125)and is also a useful fun tool which adds to the exciting play of the hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Do you think that older clubs removed them to alleviate the maintainance problem or the fairness perception due to the random bounces a ball would take after impact ?

[BCrosby]

Little fronting knobs can be a neat feature.  

My reservation about them is that they encourage aerial approaches to greens and - at least on modern courses - we have plenty of that already.

The best fronting knob in the world is on no. 8 green at ANGC.

Another good one is no. 1 at Old Marsh.

Bob

P.S. To disagree with someone's post above, I don't think Ross used a lot of fronting knobs.  I've never seen one on one of his courses.  Anyone got examples?

[Dave_Miller]

To:  B Crosby:

I made the reference to Donald Ross but note it was not in the context of a fronting knob and not in the context that Ross used fronting knobs as a standard feature.  I referred to some of the mounds he would place around greens at various points.
After reading Patrick's explanation to me of the type mound he is referring to,  the Seventh Hole at Charles River has a mound similar to what Patrick describes in front and into the green.  It makes for some very interesting approach shots and given the fact that green has a definite front to back slope the aerial game is not always the best option.  
Best
Dave Miller  

[Michael Dugger]

George C. Thomas was one of the first to use a front knob.  On a longer one shot hole it adds a level of intrigue and strategy via very little effort and cost on the part of the designer.  I believe there is a picture in The Captain from a course maybe called El Caballero which has a nice shot of this feature.

Also, I believe Doak had this type of thing in mind at the downhill 10th at Pacific Dunes.  It is located in the left front of the green.  Great feature

[RJ_Daley]

We have a new course in my area called "The Creeks at Ellingson" designed by Lohmann and his associate Todd Quito with much input by the owner.  It is dripping with features such as the pre green knob and close mowed hollows to the sides and rear of greens.  Many greens have soap dishes and ledges.  I think it may be Lohmann's best work that I have seen.  It is a throw-back course in many ways.  I can think of about 6 greens there with a pronounced nose in the foregreen.  I will try to get back there soon with a camera.  The two times I played it on consecutive days in late fall left me with a highly favorable impression.

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

I forgot the one on the first hole at Old Marsh.

I don't like the thick St Augustine grass on that mound, nor most others at Old Marsh, but it is a neat mound, just the type I'm referencing.

You're correct, at Old Marsh, with that grass, you must be aerial, but if it was the regular bermuda, cut to fairway height, it would allow for a ground shot, with front pin locations.

[Mike_Cirba]

The 4th at the Old Course is a great example of this feature, which I generally love.  David Horn and Allen Liddicoat also built a great one in front of a hole that copies the 4th on their Frog Hollow course in Delaware.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

To answer your question or two to me about why a significant mound was removed, yes, I think those two are the primary reasons.

In the case of my club I don't just think it--it was before my time--but I read in our clubs minutes and an architectural report that those were the exact reasons!

[Todd_Eckenrode]

I love to use this feature here and there, though generally more to one side where one would be apt to bail out (as at the 17th at Barona...where it serves a purpose as Don alluded to for those going for it in 2, but also really makes you think if laying up about which fairway you want to go in, depending on the pin position.  

My favorite I've seen of late was at 16th at Sand Hills.  It got me every single time, and really pissed me off!  I'm standing there right next to the green in 2 repeatedly and barely making  pars.  It absolutely got in my head, and that's a beautiful thing for an architect to achieve.  

[A_Clay_Man]

It seems to me that use of this feature is best utilized on shortish par fours and/or one shotters. Whats so beautious about the 13th at Pacific Grove is that the so called bail-out area flirts with what the locals call their valley of sin. Just a slight roll with a left-right bias. So it really narrows down the bail-out because once your ball starts to roll right, it rarely stops and chiping from the valley is inevitable.

The winter golf I played here at Pinon, made the mounds near the front so important and still with our drought conditions the playing of the mound(s) is still not only viable but fun too..

[ChipOat]

All:

While they don't bother me nearly as much as stupid trees, I still think mounds are sort of a "cop out" way to create a problem without thinking through a more creative green complex.  Whatever their intent, without a "hard and fast" mainternance meld, I think they're obnoxious.  Mounds with high grass and watered green surrounds - yuck.

Pat Mucci:

Why do you think there are no such mounds at National?  Does there have appear to have ever been any that CBM subsequently removed?

I can't think of any mounds on any MacDonald/Raynor course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

Right and short of the first green, I believe there is one that lurks for the player who hits a safe tee shot to the middle or right side of the of the first fairway.

I've seen balls take horrendous and heroic bounces off that mound, one in particular I will never forget.  In the semi-finals, Champ flight, our 19th hole, I hit one in about 6 feet, and my oppenent, from the very spot above, hit his second, short, it hit the mound and bounced two feet from the hole.
I missed, he made, I went home instead of to the finals.
Despite my unpleasant experience, I still like the feature.

[ChipOat]

Pat Mucci:

OK, you're right.  That mound is sort of hidden so I confess I'd never really had it in my life.  I remember the match you're speaking of, though.  If that little bunker by the green were deeper, that mound wouldn't be necessary to protect that RF pin, IMO.

Let me try the question again, though.  Why do you think there is only 1 mound at National?  Were there ever any others that CBM subsequently removed?

Mounds seem very "old fashioned" to me - sort of like stone walls crossing fairways that used to be in vogue circa 1900.  Mounds seem like a Myopia Hunt Club touch.

The mounds I've noticed in Scotland seem to be more an extension of a pitching, heaving, rolling fairway than just a stand-alone "large bump" in the turf.

But that's just my opinion.

Who is it that always says that??

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

Perhaps their origin is tied to the inability to remove a boulder in front of a green, who knows.

# 18 at Turnberry has one that materially affects play, as does the one at # 1 at Old Marsh.

There is one on # 1 at Boca Rio as well.

They make front pin positions a little tougher.

I like them because they give you something else to think about and may alter your method of playing your shot into the green.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You asked why a component part of architecture (the old mound on #13) was up for discussion amongst our membership.

The reason is we have a very democratic club and membership and we took every hole and every single component part of the restoration plan through the membership in a series of "forums" for any members that wanted to come and question or object to anything and everything.

Ultimately that turned out to be a very good thing because we were able to explain in detail why the course was originally built the way it was and how we'd changed that over time.

Eventually almost all members can begin to see the "commonsense" involved in the original "design intent" of the course and consequently it makes it easier for the membership to buy into what we're doing with our restoration plan.

I also believe it opens their eyes to what we have, it builds pride amongst them in the golf course and is actually the process that any good restoration architect will tell a club is the most important of all--it's called EDUCATION!!