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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2008, 08:32:43 PM »
La Paloma in Tucson is a resort/private club combo with 27 holes. The members go out on one nine while the resort guests go out on another nine. The members do not play behind the resort guests. This is a course about which Nicklaus said that he would never build such a difficult resort course again. The lowest slope of any of the combos was about 140 from  the middle tees.


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

D_Malley

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2008, 08:45:27 PM »
Buck Hill Falls in The Pennsylvania Pokes has 27...I played two of the three this Summer and have been led to believe that the third nine truly is inferior.  Deerwood GC, a muni in North Tonawanda, NY (sort of between Buffalo and Niagara Falls) has 27...18 are long and flat with inverted-bowl greens...about 10 years ago they had Scott Witter (of GCA) do a new nine.  It is shorter than the other two and light-years better for artistry, skill, strategy and challenge.  The three nines are the Buck and Doe (two originals) and the Fawn (Scott's contribution.)

Buck Hill Falls, Poconos PA
i have played all three nines Red - white - blue.  i am pretty sure that the inferior one you are referring to is the red nine.  the red nine has some pretty cool holes, but it starts and ends with par 3's which are both very bland and on a diff side of the road than the other 7 holes which are all pretty good.  the course was originally an 18 hole ross design with nine holes added by robert white.  the original hole are all mixed within the 27. and i have heard that the most original ross holes are on the red nine.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 08:47:19 PM by D_Malley »

D_Malley

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2008, 08:46:33 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 08:48:04 PM by D_Malley »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2008, 08:50:07 PM »
That's interesting re:  the good Ross holes.  They went out of their way to shepherd me away from the red nine (I am writing two stories on the property) to play the other two nines, both of which were short but damned difficult.
Coming in 2024
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David Stamm

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2008, 08:55:24 PM »
Although it has some plain weird/dumb holes, overall, Pacific Golf Club's 3 nines blend well with each other. Despite the over the top difficulty in spots, I actually like the place.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bob Barriger

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2008, 09:01:56 PM »
I had the good fortune to play Asherwood Golf Course in Carmel, IN this fall. Steve Smyers is a friend of mine and I have played a few rounds with him in Florida when I visit and at my home course Wolf Run which he designed. Steve was able to get me access to Asherwood, the private golf course he designed for Mel Simon of Simon Mall Company on his estate in Carmel, IN.  The first 18 is a fun but not too difficult test of golf. But the genius comes out in the last 9 where you are playing from the same tees but to different fairways to different greens.  You do not see some of the bunkering in the first 18 that you may encounter in the final 9 holes unless you look back.  You can read more about the 27 hole course in Smyers interview on GCA a few years ago.  In Smyers interview they talk about 20 rounds per week, I drive by the place almost every day and have only seen play on the course maybe a handful of times in 5-6 years. He also designed an 18 hole par 3 course that I am told has greens that are more severe than ANGC.  We were not a le to get on the par 3 course as it was in September and they were aerating the greens. Will get that done next season. My group of 3 was the only group on the course that day.   Needless to say, it was quite a cool experience.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2008, 10:25:22 PM »
Upper Montclair and Edgewood in N.J. seem to work well as 27 hole courses.

As to the Championship course at TCC, it's very convoluted

Gerry B

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2008, 10:52:04 PM »
hamilton near toronto
palmilla in cabo had 3 nines if i remember correctly
walnut creek near detroit

Mike_Cirba

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2008, 10:57:25 PM »
Buck Hill Falls, Poconos PA
i have played all three nines Red - white - blue.  i am pretty sure that the inferior one you are referring to is the red nine.  the red nine has some pretty cool holes, but it starts and ends with par 3's which are both very bland and on a diff side of the road than the other 7 holes which are all pretty good.  the course was originally an 18 hole ross design with nine holes added by robert white.  the original hole are all mixed within the 27. and i have heard that the most original ross holes are on the red nine.

D_Malley,

Donald Ross did work at Buck Hill Falls but there were 18 holes there prior to his arrival, with the first nine built in 1907.   I don't have it all in front of me right now, but he is responsible for a good bit of today's course...it's just not a Ross original as they would have you believe.

Still and all, that's not as egregious as Pocono Manor, who still advertise today that they are a Donald Ross course when that is virtually impossible for two reasons; 1) The first nine opened in 1911 and was almost certainly designed by Samuel Allen, one of the leading "Quaker" golfers in Philly at the time, and the second nine was designed by William Flynn around 1920 and Wayne Morrison has his hole drawings.   Those include today's holes 7 thru 16.

Buck Hill Falls was also built by the Quakers, and the stories of these two resorts closely parallel.   

Contrary to what you've been told, the Red Nine is quite good, and not much of a downer from the other two nines.

Tim Bert

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2008, 11:01:26 PM »
At least two of the RTJ Trail sites have 3 nines rather than 18 hole courses.

Silver Lakes - Wasn't a big fan of this one.  The Heart Breaker, Mind Breaker, and Back Breaker weren't particularly memorable on their own or in any combination.

Cambrian Ridge - Good, but not great.  The three nines worked better here - Loblolly, Canyon, and Sherling - but I may have enjoyed the short course at this site better than any of the "big" nines.

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2008, 09:27:00 AM »
The re-designed Forest Park course in St. Louis, Mo. is 27 holes.  The old design was also 27, but the former 18 hole course did not have the 9th hole return to the clubhouse, so the 3 nines could not be combined to create an 18 hole course.  In addition the old 9 hole course was very inferior.

The current configuation is set-up so that one may play any two of the 9 hole courses, for a round of 18.  One of the 9s is a bit easier than the other two and would likely be left out for a tournament.  However, having played all three 9s, I would not matter which two I played at any time.

On a side note per St. Louis golf, I read recently that the other Forest Park golf course (Triple A) is currently being upgraded, and that a practice range is being added.  Although this course was not very challenging, it was a fun course to play.  Forest Park will now have a very easy 9 hole course, a sporty 9 hole course, and 2 slightly challenging 9s.  None of these will challenge Gateway National or Annbriar as the best publics in the St. Louis area, but it is great to see 36 holes of reasonably priced courses available to those new to the game, returning to the game, or just ongoing occassional golfers.  And these courese can also be fun for the dedicated core golfers.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Andy Troeger

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2008, 09:42:47 AM »
I can see 27 holes being nice in some situations. Many of the public courses near Albuquerque have 27 holes--I'm not a fan. Paa-Ko Ridge has already been mentioned, but Santa Ana, Isleta, Arroyo del Oso, Tanoan, Ladera, Los Altos, and Chamisa Hills are ALL 27 hole facilities. Some are obviously 18 hole courses plus 9 hole short courses which I think works. The ones where you never know where you're going to play is a nuisance IMO. The 3rd nine at Paa-Ko is nowhere near the other two--its not a bad nine to play, but if I'm going to play Paa-Ko I want the original 18 and try to request it now that I've played all the nines at least a couple times.

When I played Sahallee it seemed like the nines were all fairly comparable. We played two and drove the other so its not a perfect comparison. I suppose in that situation it might be a little better than when the course has a pretty wide quality gap.

Mike McGuire

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2008, 10:18:31 AM »

When you have 27 holes what is the course? The red and blue ? white and red.....

Its annoying not having a 10th - 18th hole. Listening to someone describe how the match went is more painful when they start by saying something like ---  on the 7th hole of the blue nine I ........

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2008, 10:21:27 AM »
Limekiln GC, a daily fee course in the Philly 'burbs owned by baseball Hall of Famer Robin Roberts and former Phillie pitcher and his team mate Curt Simmons, is a very popular 27 holer.

www.limegolf.com

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

tlavin

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2008, 10:26:42 AM »
Butterfield CC in the west suburbs of Chicago has three nines that are fairly indistinguishble.  As a matter of fact, as a result of decades of well-meaning but ignorant neglect, it is a rather undistinguished golf course that appears to have lost much of its former charm.  I'm pretty sure Langford & Moreau hand their hands on it in the early days.  Steve Smyers (late of the Olympia Fields South re-do) has just begun a total renovation.  If his work at Olympia is any guide, the result should be a dramatic improvement.

D_Malley

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2008, 11:24:47 AM »
mike thanks for that additional info on BHF and PM east.   
do you know who did the original 18 at BHF?  my family has a cabin up near there.  we have had some good times on fall trips playing the old time resorts in  that area.
BHF, PM, skytop, water gap, and maybe throw in glenbrook. 
i do agree that the red nine @ BHF is pretty good particulary the holes across the road.

Andrew Hastie

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2008, 12:06:18 PM »
The Kennemer is 27 holes with all three nines being of roughly the same quality.

Tim Leahy

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2008, 04:56:22 PM »
Steele Canyon's three nines work well together and I believe were built at the same time. Course is in San Diego and a Player design.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Wyatt Halliday

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2008, 06:02:00 PM »
I played the second and third nines at Pa-ako Ridge earlier this year and found the experience to be no where as good as the original front and back nines.

Bill,

Stange timing that I mentioned this in a conversation during lunch today.

the most cohesive 27 I can think of was at Old Orchard GC in Houston. Nothing spectacular, but consistent. I say was because it NLE.

WH

Bill_McBride

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2008, 06:08:52 PM »
I can see 27 holes being nice in some situations. Many of the public courses near Albuquerque have 27 holes--I'm not a fan. Paa-Ko Ridge has already been mentioned, but Santa Ana, Isleta, Arroyo del Oso, Tanoan, Ladera, Los Altos, and Chamisa Hills are ALL 27 hole facilities. Some are obviously 18 hole courses plus 9 hole short courses which I think works. The ones where you never know where you're going to play is a nuisance IMO. The 3rd nine at Paa-Ko is nowhere near the other two--its not a bad nine to play, but if I'm going to play Paa-Ko I want the original 18 and try to request it now that I've played all the nines at least a couple times.

When I played Sahallee it seemed like the nines were all fairly comparable. We played two and drove the other so its not a perfect comparison. I suppose in that situation it might be a little better than when the course has a pretty wide quality gap.

Andy, I agree 100% about that third nine at Paa-Ko Ridge, in my opinion it was nowhere near the quality of the original 18.  In fact, there are some pretty weird holes up there!

Wyatt Halliday

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2008, 06:21:39 PM »
I can see 27 holes being nice in some situations. Many of the public courses near Albuquerque have 27 holes--I'm not a fan. Paa-Ko Ridge has already been mentioned, but Santa Ana, Isleta, Arroyo del Oso, Tanoan, Ladera, Los Altos, and Chamisa Hills are ALL 27 hole facilities. Some are obviously 18 hole courses plus 9 hole short courses which I think works. The ones where you never know where you're going to play is a nuisance IMO. The 3rd nine at Paa-Ko is nowhere near the other two--its not a bad nine to play, but if I'm going to play Paa-Ko I want the original 18 and try to request it now that I've played all the nines at least a couple times.

When I played Sahallee it seemed like the nines were all fairly comparable. We played two and drove the other so its not a perfect comparison. I suppose in that situation it might be a little better than when the course has a pretty wide quality gap.

Andy, I agree 100% about that third nine at Paa-Ko Ridge, in my opinion it was nowhere near the quality of the original 18.  In fact, there are some pretty weird holes up there!

Bill & Andy,

It seemed to me that the bunkering on the third nine was completely different in terms of both style and strategy. Am I remembering this correctly?

Mike_Cirba

Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2008, 10:16:58 PM »
mike thanks for that additional info on BHF and PM east.   
do you know who did the original 18 at BHF?  my family has a cabin up near there.  we have had some good times on fall trips playing the old time resorts in  that area.
BHF, PM, skytop, water gap, and maybe throw in glenbrook. 
i do agree that the red nine @ BHF is pretty good particulary the holes across the road.

D_Malley,

The original 18 holes at Buck Hill Falls were built by the exact same bunch of guys who build the original nine at Pocono Manor...Quaker men from the Philadelphia region who belonged to the "Ozone Club", a golf club that played at many regional courses but did not have an official home course of their own (although many, including their patriarch Samuel Allen, were members of Moorestown Field Club in NJ, which Allen also designed in 1911).   

Samuel Allen was really the leader of these men from a golf standpoint, but the man who developed the Buck Hill Falls resort early on was owner Charles Jenkins, also a prominent member of the Ozone Club.   His father originally bought the land, but died soon after during a tragic fall into one of the gorges on the property.

Son Charles took over and built the first lodge in 1901, and by 1907 "golf experts" designed the first nine holes.   Another nine followed in 1914, 3 years after Allen and the same fellows opened the first nine holes at Pocono Manor.

In 1918, it was reported that; “Donald Ross, one of America’s foremost architects, is employed to the study the golf links and present a plan for increasing to 27 holes.”   By 1919, a report indicated that Ross laid out nine new holes, but they must have been difficult to build because it wasn't until 1921 that it was reported, “New nine holes completed at the cost of over $100,000. Some of the holes, extremely expensive to build with No.3 on the Blue costing $13,000 and No.4 $15,000."

I'm not sure when Robert White was there, but it is quite possible he laid out the second nine holes in 1914, as he was already working at nearby Shawnee at the time.

Samuel Allen was an engineer and an inventor, and the man responsible for incredible innovations to farming and construction equipment, and also the inventor of the "Flexible Flyer" sled.

When Allen was working on the design of Moorestown Field Club, no less an authority than A.W. Tillinghast wrote the following about him in 1911;

"THE NEW nine-hole course of the Field Club, Moorestown, N. J., will be opened early next spring.  Provision is made not only for golf but for cricket, soccer, hockey and tennis.  Mr. Samuel L. Allen who has really been at the head of the work on the new course at Moorestown, has long been a very close student of the many courses which are famous both in America and abroad. He has introduced many pleasing features in the arrangement of the nine holes."

"A very clear idea of the new Moorestown course can be obtained from the sketch which Mr. Allen has prepared.  It will be noticed that the fourth hole is so arranged as to make practically two holes, one tee making the distance 175 yards and the other 210 yards and the same idea is carried out on the eighth hole, the shorter shots being played on the first round.  The shell bunkers are of a style that one sees a good many of in England. They are shaped something like a musselshell lying with its open side to the sky,  sand being placed only in the back part against the hinge portion of the shell, as it were, while the lip is in grass and made sloping."

Tilly also wrote about the Ozone Club and their plans for this course a year earlier in 1910;

"The club at Moorestown, N. J., has purchased forty-six acres on which they will lay out a new nine-hole course.  The ground is close by the old course.  Like many of the Philadelphia golf organizations, the club was originally devoted to cricket and tennis, which still flourish there, but when golf claimed its devotees from the membership list, a nine-hole course was the natural result.  It was crude in the beginning—the first drive being over or through a fence (with "takes over" if you hit the rails) and the chief menace near one green loomed up in the shape of a chicken coop."

"Of course, in time the grounds were greatly improved and the good people of Moorestown waxed enthusiastic in the joy of following the ball.  The purchase of ground for a new course is the consequence."

"Some years ago a few of the keenest members created the Ozone Club for the purpose of making pilgrimages to various links from time to time for a day in the open.  By reason of the knowledge gained on their  explorations it is safe to predict that the new course will be well planned."
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 06:50:55 AM by MikeCirba »

Mark Pritchett

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2008, 10:39:09 PM »
Champions Retreat in Augusta, GA has 27 holes consisting of three nines designed by Jack Nicklaus (Bluff) , Arnold Palmer (Island) and Gary Player (Creek).   It is always fun to ask members and guests which nine they like best.  I believe Golf Digest has CR ranked in the top 10 in the state of Georgia. 
 
I will try and post some pictures in the near future.

Mike Wagner

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2008, 01:23:22 AM »
Sahalee

Michael Latham

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Re: 27 Hole Courses
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2008, 03:20:00 AM »
Wisley, (Surrey, UK) works very well. facilitates 2 ball/4 ball play. Wisley is in process of rebuilding each 9, the Garden 9 the first to be re-built completes this month. Will be interesting to see if the three 9's maintain compatibility following re-building.

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