Bethpage Black...Width of Fairways

[brad_miller]

It is stated that they average 26 yards in width, what is the plan going forward after the open? read somewhere that they where 45 yards on average. Isn't this harmful to all of golf when the press makes this out to be a macho thing, wouldn't it be better if the point where made that is for one event, our national open, being played by 156 of the best "young" players in the world. How many Green Chairman are calling the Supts and telling then to narrow the fairways?

On the positive side anyone reading the press should understand that F&F is harder and more fun, even if ones drive sometimes goes farther.

[Dunlop_White]

Brad,

Exactly! It annoys me to no end that the perceptions of green's chairmen and memberships across the country are influenced by the USGA's treatment of Open venues. It is imminent that 7250 yard par 70's and 26 yards of width in many of our country club's fairways may soon be the standard or the norm.

There are many ways to defend par!

Extending holes to the boundary and squeezing them to death with high grass, however, has become the model. Too often these alterations are employed without deference to the architect or his design intent. As a result, many of our classic courses have lost their character and design integrity.

Instead, try making the course firm and fast. Maximize the strategic nature of the design. Visually accentuate bunkers and hazards to make the golfer think. Make other "looks", such as debth and distances ambiguous to the mind's eye. Take the tall grass away from the greens for a variety of shot making options. These are examples of other more interesting methods of protecting par which are consistent with the classical approach.

The daunting, mental elements of the game must be revived!

Dunlop

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I agree with this basic view of how the USGA takes the architecture and natural defenses out of a course.

[brad_miller]

John, let them do what they want with THE OPEN, just don't make the world think that is how a members course should be set up and played day in and day out. BB looks like it would be one heck of a course for the avg-good single digit player with 35-40 yard fairway width and 6700-6800 yard distance, although its hard to take those bunker shapes from the blimp, looks like a bio lab class.

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

Geoffrey and I debated the Bethpage bunker issue a little bit yesterday, and although Bruceski's pics made them look somewhat better from ground level, I still don't see them looking anything like Tillie would have built, even at his most stylish.  Since you've played SFGC, which seems to be Tillie at his flamboyant best as far as bunkering, do you see any similarities?

They certainly don't appear as they did when I played the course about 10 years ago, when they had a rugged, rough-hewn nature, albeit not in prime condition.  Overall, the course looks amazingly better conditioned, but also amazingly more formalized, demarcated, and overly stylized for my tastes.  

Still, I'm glad that Rees did the work at Bethpage that catapulted it to US Open status.  

[brad_miller]

SFGC, like the remaing Thomas bunkers at Riv are WORKS OF ART in its highest form, will be interesting to see what they look like when Doak's done at SFGC, one thing I'll bet, much better and more in charactor with the oringinals. Who did Rees work? Thought he said he sent them to WF to look? They seem to be in all the right places and seem to have depth, and even seemed to look good from the ground, BUT not the air.

[Matt_Ward]

Gentlemen:

For what it's worth the bunkers at Bethpage are clearly uniform in their appearance but the wild and rough look that was the Black prior to Rees is no longer present. The finished product is not comparable or akin to Tillie / re: Winged Foot or SF. Nonetheless, the bunkers at the Black are clearly hazards with a capital "H". You must negotiate them with great care! Kudos to Rees in preparing all of them minus the large fairway bunker at #7.

As far as fairway width is concerned I've noticed in being at the Open for all four days thus far that the fairway cuts have been weaved to keep players from easily hitting a straight line play from the tee. You must gauge very correctly what your line of attack will be.

One last item -- the item making the Black play real tough is the uniformity and density of the secondary rough. You will rarely catch a lie that can advance the ball great distances. You will advance it but only a reasonable distance -- nothing more. The fairway widths still give the players opportunity to use the driver and have less club in the green. Players opting to lay back will only increase the pressure on their second shot.

Thus far -- the players will probably be happy that no one changed the greens because from tee-to-green the Black is everything and more thus far. We shall see through Sunday since the weather may make the course play even longer!

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I realize I'm talking pure aesthetics here.  The bunkers at Bethpage Black have always been TRUE hazards, and I'm heartened they continue to be so after Rees's renovation.  

Fairways widths and deep rough are another thing entirely.  I drove past Merion East yesterday and was somewhat surprised to see a secondary "non-cut" of rough throughout the course that has to be at least knee-deep....really long, deep, thick, and gnarly stuff.

I have heard that they are looking at widening some of the fairways to original widths consistent with their 1930 theme, and was surprised to see DEEP rough that it looks like they are hosting the US Open this week...or perhaps the British Open at Muirfield in 1966 is a better description.  

[brad_miller]

Matt, was only commenting on the "look", from the TV that site screams for the more wild natural PV look or at least the look at WF or SFGC. I am sure when Doak is done with SFGC their bunkers done by "Doak's own shapers" will look more natural and still be hazards. Hasn't Rees stated that he sent ?? Macdonald & Co ?? to WF to look, guess they went at night. Is there a natural looking bunker on the black course? At least they seem to look better from the ground.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

If I had to nominate a few I would say the fairway bunkers you must cross over at the 5th and 7th come to mind quickly. Ditto, the huge cross bunker you find at #4 and the fairway bunker at #13. The cross bunker at the 7th though was the only one never touched by Rees and company. Clearly, the hand of Rees has shaped and molded the rest and I do believe a case can be made that says did Rees really mold them into a Tillie manner or was it more to what Rees believes? The bunkers are clearly not in the manner you find at Winged Foot clearly.

When you say "natural" I would say I can't argue the point that the bunkers at the Black are as natural as say Sand Hills. Clearly -- they are not. But, the sandy terrain you find at the Black does allow for their unique presence without looking out of place.

However, I concede and I believe even a few well connected people who have seen the Black over many years have said to me it would have been grand to see the Black with a more wild look with high grass flowing over the tops of the bunkers, etc, etc.

But, I have to say what concerns me is that many people might get the impression that the Black is nothing more than a USGA / Rees Jones "monster" creation and really has little of the qualities that go beyond an Open set-up. The Black has plenty of character and options and even though many people have barked about the greens lacking "contour" I'm just happy to see an event that doesn't feature tricked up greens where players may have 10 feet of break in a putt of 8 feet or less.

I'll say this again -- what's made the Black play tough thus far is the density of the rough -- it's 3 inches of poor hell. And, to the USGA's credit (and fortunately the Black has the space) they have prevented the galleries from trampling down the playing area so that the real foul ball tee shot could result in some very interesting situations.

If you took the best players back to the Black a month after the event and scaled things back slightly (hell, I can remember playing the Black when the grass was hay in just about every area but the fairways!!!) they would see a course that still shines brightly.