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Garland Bayley

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2008, 02:28:13 PM »
...
It takes time, but physics and evolution conspire to create a perfect landscape.  Perfect and infinitely different.  Some are well suited for golf.
...

Would this be better said physics and errosion?

To me "infinitely different" is an important tenet. If you travel from course to course you get the pleasure of these infinite differences. Additionally, John would inform us that as you travel from nearby location to nearby location on Stone Eagle you also get the pleasure of these infinite differences.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kirk

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2008, 02:44:55 PM »

Based on a superficial assessment of how others had presented the writings, I had always thought that Max Behr was a subtle and nuanced critic. With its inflammatory language and false dualism, this excerpt is just another rant, dolled up with a fancy vocabulary.

Michael,

I really appreciate your comment here.  Let me add two more quotes to the fire:

Max Behr writes:

"Therefore, in the prosecution of his designs, if the architect correctly uses the forces of nature to express tham and thus succeeds in hiding his hand, then, only, has he created that illusion which can still all criticism."

"But the golf architect who looks upon his work as a true art will ever be humble, for his search is beauty.  With so high a purpose, his will is ever subservient to his quest.  It becomes the handmaid by which he brings to fruition his intuitions of truth.  He must first feel before he thinks.  And thus with no matrix of irrelevant ideas to dim his sight, he, with innocent eyes, perceives the forms of nature and rearranges them as they might once have been, or anticipates what they are to be, blending with his work that modicum of necessity that golf demands."

In the second quote, Behr's tone is moral.  The architect shall not play God.  Thy Will, not the architect, be done.

Nevertheless, I agree with Behr, with 90% less words.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2008, 02:48:35 PM »
John - I think all the architects around here have had good and interesting thoughts about this subject (or at least related subjects) in the past. To name one, Kelly Blake Moran has added some great insights/perspective - and his name just came to me in re-reading Rich-Jean Paul's "esthetically (form) and practically (function)" contexualizing of the subject.  Without putting words into Kelly's mouth, I think he might suggest....wait, that would be putting words into his mouth. So I'll say it myself -- I think the "codifying" over the decades of what's considered "functional" has really limited the range of nature-inspired "forms" that architects look for or are open to. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone, but even if it does it's probably taking this thread far off track.

Peter
Just saw your post - I think Behr's notion of the "modicum of necessity that golf demands" is, again, very significant


John Kirk

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2008, 03:00:35 PM »
...
It takes time, but physics and evolution conspire to create a perfect landscape.  Perfect and infinitely different.  Some are well suited for golf.
...

Would this be better said physics and errosion?

To me "infinitely different" is an important tenet. If you travel from course to course you get the pleasure of these infinite differences. Additionally, John would inform us that as you travel from nearby location to nearby location on Stone Eagle you also get the pleasure of these infinite differences.


Whoosh, I'm getting in deep!

I'm trying to get evolution in there to add that the plants and animals impose their will on the land.  I suppose I'd classify erosion as a subset of the physics involved.

I don't see why Stone Eagle should be singled out here.  Stone Eagle is highly manufactured, though our man Tom Doak could identify which areas were left largely unmolested.  The golf course is sand-capped of course.  Otherwise, Garland, I don't know what to add about infinite differences.  Sometimes you have to look closely to see the differences in land that looks homogenous at first glance.  A flat meadow or beach is pretty homogenous from a golf standpoint.

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2008, 03:03:43 PM »
And, I would classify erosion as a superset of the effect that plants and animals have on the land. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kirk Gill

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2008, 05:22:53 PM »
I am sadly lacking in my knowledge of Behr and his work, but from the limited amount I HAVE read, the thing that sticks out to me is the notion that a naturalistic approach to golf course design is the only method he accepts.

He says "We have only to consider the fashions in bunkers that we have already passed through. Today we think we have accomplished something when we have spotted funny little plots of grass in their midst, or run ribbons of sand up their faces. All such pretentious and affected elaboration is attractive to the uncultivated eye. This craftsmanship comes to be credited with artistic significance. But the revelation that lies in the mists ahead is form that reveals true beauty. This we will achieve only when the features we must create are considered, not solely as ends in themselves, but as means of expressing authentic landscape form. It is structural integrity that we are seeking."

But is this true? Must every bunker be an expression of an authentic landscape form? And is the placement of a bunker determined by strategic implication, or for the enhancement of a naturalistic aesthetic? Perhaps Behr would counter that if the routing is done correctly, the "natural" bunker sites would have the necessary strategic impact, but he certainly seems to indicate that the needs of the game of golf would be secondary to the necessities of nature and a naturalistic aesthetic.

Behr says "May we not say, then, that in the degree the golfer is conscious of design, in that degree is the architecture faulty according to the highest tenets of the art?" Doesn't the placement of bunkers strictly near expected landing areas and surrounding greens force a golfer to be conscious of the design? How does one defend, say, the greens at Winged Foot West that are pushed up above the surrounding grade and are bunkered in a way that might not ever be found in nature? And yet to my eye they are very beautiful.

I liked John's comment that "great golf looks great" - basically throwing an addendum onto Behr's sayings to the effect that because we play golf and know what elements are to be found on a golf course, that excellence in creating those elements is something that a golfer may perceive as beautiful.

There is to my mind great value in maximizing the natural qualities of a site and creating where possible tie-ins with the surrounding landscape that succeed in hiding the hand of man and creating the illusion to which Behr felt all architects should aspire.

But I'm not dogmatic about it. I don't feel like an architect who doesn't live up to Behr's ideals is "Driven by a self-complacency in his own omnipotence," or that ..."the bark of his architecture, without the rudder of geological law, must drift from one fallacy of design to another."
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2008, 06:15:19 PM »
Peter Pallotta said;
"Just picking up on one idea, I thought Behr's question -- i.e. "Is golf to be robbed of all illusion?" -- is telling and significant.

I don't know what to make of it, but it popped out at me as saying a lot.

I'll mull it over, but am hoping others can zero in on it."


Peter:

As you know, Behr's writing on the general subject of architecture was contained in articles over time on around a dozen or so subjects and blindness was one of those subjects and articles. He tended to rewrite on some of those very same subjects as well often using the same references or phrases.

His references to "illusion" probably went to the heart of his belief in a certain amount of blindness in golf architecture to delay the realization of some outcome (either one's own ball or one's opponent's ball). Behr believed this made for what he referred to as "a call upon intelligence." By that he meant one must rely not on instant visual gratification but on one's collected experience (intelligence) to deal with something seemingly deceptive or not completely visible or obvious.

Personally, I think he often carried his reference to "illusion" further to include some of the visual mysteries of raw nature in the form of various types of landforms (and perhaps even further to what they might do with a golf ball). I think this is why he resisted the idea which he stated that all greens should not be propped up from back to front to receive approaching shots (Behr said that was not much different architecturally than a catcher's mitt). That to him was too artifically standardized in a "man created" way and contained no natural illusion (deception and visual deception) as might a green that ran away from the golfer and perhaps was not easy to see from certain approach points.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 06:21:18 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2008, 06:35:20 PM »
Quote from: Max Behr on Yesterday at 08:12:56 pm
"It must be evident that there are two methods in which golf architecture is pursued."

“This sort of Manichean analysis has been detrimental to the discourse on this site over the years.

I would not call it "simple dichotomy" but rather a continuum, and I would note that I have always learned the most on this site when people are discussing the appearance, playability, and maintainability of specific features.

Based on a superficial assessment of how others had presented the writings, I had always thought that Max Behr was a subtle and nuanced critic. With its inflammatory language and false dualism, this excerpt is just another rant, dolled up with a fancy vocabulary.”


Michael:

Of course Behr’s ideas and writing that you call “Manichean”, that he called ‘two methods’ and some call “dualism” was a rant. Behr felt very strongly that there was a right way to create architecture and there was very much a wrong way. He wasn’t just being philosophical either as he was looking back at some pretty pathetic man-made golf architecture!  ;)

As far as taking the subject of golf architecture to some moral level, I think Behr felt he wasn’t exactly doing that or promoting that but others certainly were with what was sometimes referred to (perhaps not that accurately) as “penal” architecture.



TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2008, 06:55:35 PM »
"Sean, Tom Paul's first response in this thread highlights the differences between gca and LA."


Adam:

I would certainly not say my first response above highlights the differences between GCA and LA, but my response does highlight what I believe I personally do not like about some of the aspects of LA that are and have been applied to GCA.

By that I'm talking about the so-called "art" principles of LA (as I understand them). Those "art" principles of LA include Harmony, Proportion, Balance, Rhythm and Emphasis.

It is particularly the idea of the LA principle of Emphasis I am not fond of being constantly transposed to GCA. One definition of the "art" principle of Emphasis is---To draw the eye to the most important part of the arrangement.

I feel when that LA principle of Emphasis is constantly used in GCA to draw the eye to the most important part and that part is always precisely where one should hit the ball, then in a real sense golf and architecture loses, in my opinion, what Behr called "Illusion" which is a form of deception or mystery, hopefully both visually and psychologically!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 06:59:02 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2008, 07:06:12 PM »
JohnK:

Being as interested in Behr and his writing, ideas and philosophies on GCA as I am, I'm delighted your thread contains a lot of Behr quotes.

I don't know who knows of it at this point but on the subject of Behr, his philosophies, writing, whatever, this website should shortly be in for a real treat, in my opinion. Bob Crosby has been working on an essay about the basic debate back in the 1920s between Crane et al/ Behr, Mackenzie et al for a couple of years now and he's just rolled out a pretty ready draft. In the last few days I've been reading it over I think it just may be about the best essay on the deep fundamentals or essences, if you will, of golf and architecture ever written for those who feel they want to delve very deep into those subjects.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 07:09:02 PM by TEPaul »

Adam Clayman

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2008, 08:59:23 PM »
The modicum line blows richarde's base line counter argument right out of the toilet.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2008, 10:39:12 PM »
TE - thanks. Look at that, Behr uses one word like illusion to allude to blind shots, deception, the landforms of raw nature, and the basic ethos of a natural game -- and sometimes all at once!  I realized recently that I'm really out of my depth talking about old Maxie....

Adam - please, more on that last post. I don't understand what Rich's baseline counter-argument is

Peter


RJ_Daley

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2008, 03:19:15 AM »
Trying to wade through all this heady GCA philosophical stuff, and how Michael Moore introduced Manichaeism and Dualism into this mix, reminded me of some superficial inquiry I had to make into St. Augustine when trying to understand a criminal case, believe it or not.   ::)

As I understood Manicheaism, every golfer, every architect is a Manichean and dualist, because the entire field of golf course architecture and its participants lies in the real and physical world where compromises and contrasts must be made in evaluating the quality of the golf course as it exists materially in the ground.  GCA and golf doesn't exist in an ethereal state of highest conciousness, nor acheive some pure state of being contained in the cloak of a game. GCA and golf isn't really some unitary ideal to bring us ultimate enlightenment of one true thing.  It is a game of the material world, built by architects of many stripes and persuasions of what is aesthetic beauty and game playability from the purely natural design upon the unaltered land to the mimicked construction of that which might appear natural but isn't - yet is there as a creation to function as a mere game strategy.  Or, GCA as some ornate concoction of artsy landscape design with a golf course that got into the mix incidentally, but neither the tea garden nor the golf course should naturally exist or co-exist. 

However you want to conceive any of these extremes of GCA (totally natural to man made tea gardens with an incidental golf course incorporated) it is all in the material world, and must be understood via rationalization and interpretations through the senses. 

Behr it seems wants to be St Augustine, but his subject of GCA falls woefully short of anything that can be correlated to the Augustinian approach of the unitary intelligible design.

So, with the Manichean theme and dualist theory in mind,  I retrieved this expanation from Jean Paul Parodi's academic well:
Quote
Augustine, especially in his earlier works, focuses upon the contrast between the intelligible and the sensible, enjoining his reader to realize that the former alone holds out what we seek in the latter: the world of the senses is intractably private and isolated, whereas the intelligible realm is truly public and simultaneously open to all [De Libero Arbitrio II.7] ; the sensible world is one of transitory objects, whereas the intelligible realm contains abiding realities [De Libero Arbitrio II.6]; the sensible world is subject to the consumptive effects of temporality, whereas the intelligible realm is characterized by an atemporal eternity wherein we are safely removed from the eviscerating prospect of losing what and whom we love [Confessions XI.xxxix.39; see also Confessions IV.xii.18]. Indeed, in the vision at Ostia at Confessions IX.x.23-25, Augustine even seems to suggest that the intelligible realm holds out the prospect of fulfilling our desire for the unity that we seek in friendship and love, a unity that can never really be achieved as long as we are immersed in the sensible world and separated by physical bodies subject to inevitable dissolution [see Mendelson 2000]. The intelligible realm, with God as its source, promises the only lasting relief from the anxiety prompted by the transitory nature of the sensible realm.

Which as we all can read in my rambling post, is well above my pay grade to make much sense of it all... ::) ::) ::)



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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2008, 10:04:40 AM »
Peter, Rihc, has always been first to point out how modern golf cannot be natural because of the tees fairgreen and greens. He has apparently based all this Behr ranting on that premise. From that one line about the modicum of un-naturalness, Behr anticipated his argument 80 years ago.

Apparently, those who have yet to have the proper contemplation and imagination, FEELing their way around a golf course, fail to experience la' differance. (forgive my attempt at French humor)

Kirk, While bunkers and their placement are keys to both aesthetics and strategy, there are only a few better examples of mitigating their jarring affects then out your back door.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2008, 10:22:39 AM »
Adam

If you want to speak about me, please have the courtesy to speak directly to me.  I promise I will not bite.  Also, if and when you speak about me and/or to me, please try to be accurate about what I say.  I believe and have always said that ALL courses, from the Old Course onward, are unnatural (except to the extent that one believes, as do I, that man is an integral part of Nature).   I think that even Behr was perceptive enough to realise that obvious fact/paradox..... ;)

Keep on truckin' Goldilocks

J-P P

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2008, 10:36:24 AM »
"I believe and have always said that ALL courses, from the Old Course onward, are unnatural (except to the extent that one believes, as do I, that man is an integral part of Nature).   I think that even Behr was perceptive enough to realise that obvious fact/paradox....."

Rich and Adam:

I don't believe Behr ever actually said (wrote) that Man was part of Nature (even though he very likely felt that and accepted that).

As far as Behr attempting to promote naturalism in golf architecture and the look of it in golf architecture he definitely never said he felt it was possible to make any golf course look like man had absolutely nothing to do with it and that it was wholly a product of just Nature or should completely look that way. In that vein, he very much explained that there were what he called 'necessary exceptions for golf' and that they were basically tees, fairways, greens, sometimes roughs and also sand bunkering (on sites that had no indigenous sand).

But for years now there have been some on here who seem to argue that Behr's ideas on naturalism in architecture are essentially fallacious simply because anyone who is observant can recognize that there are elements about all golf courses that are man-made. That is a fairly useless "BLACK OR WHITE" or "ALL or NOTHING premise and argument which is not very realistic or sensible, in my opinion---plus it is a complete misrepresentation of anything Behr ever said or implied about golf architecture and naturalism.

Max Behr was definitely smart enough to know that naturalism in golf course architecture was simply one of degree and that is precisely what he both said and wrote.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 10:41:06 AM by TEPaul »

Rich Goodale

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2008, 10:41:22 AM »
Tom

That belief that man is an integral part of nature is mine and not Behr's (or Adam's for all I know).  I think that was clear in the sentences of mine you quoted above.

I assumed Behr was clever enough to understand the paradox involved since I think he was a very clever (if often inarticulate) man.

Cheers for now

Rich

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2008, 11:00:25 AM »
"Tom
That belief that man is an integral part of nature is mine and not Behr's (or Adam's for all I know).  I think that was clear in the sentences of mine you quoted above."


Richard the Seemingly Unique Thinker:

Lest you are under the impression you are the first or perhaps the only one on here to come to the conclusion and to the belief that MAN is an integral part of nature, I should tell you that less than a week ago our own Kirk Gill came to the same realization and conclusion and offered that statement to me in a conversation on the telephone. So there you go----eg so far it looks like Kirk beat both you and perhaps even all of Mankind to that realization by about a week!  ;)


As far as Max Behr being, as you just said, 'often inarticulate', personally I don't think so. I think he was incredibly articulate. It's just that he wrote (and perhaps spoke) in "Edwardian English" and apparently you either can't read or can't understand "Edwardian English" very well.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 11:05:29 AM by TEPaul »

Adam Clayman

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2008, 11:03:17 AM »
Minimizing the modicum is where it's at.

Rihc, You might as well start calling me Greydilocks. Just calling you out, for discussion purposes, on what I recall you saying many times

I've been keenly aware of the primordial beast for some time now. One of golf's great challenges (and lures) is the need to control that beast. Perhaps it's what's allowed some to forgo their artistic opinions and feel the natural world.  Appreciating that feeling, forgoing the trappings of ego, is also where it's at.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2008, 11:11:41 AM »
"I've been keenly aware of the primordial beast for some time now. One of golf's great challenges (and lures) is the need to control that beast. Perhaps it's what's allowed some to forgo their artistic opinions and feel the natural world."

Adam:

What do you mean or think you mean by the 'primordial beast'? Feel free to answer that either generally or in the context of golf course architecture, or even in the context of "art", for that matter.   :)

Adam Clayman

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Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2008, 11:34:36 AM »
Tom, I've always thought it was a mental thing, mostly meant it in terms of the sport. But, I'm certain it could be applied to most things humans do and why they do them.

Behr writes of the influences on the designer
Quote
it is 'his destiny' to be in bondage to the winds of fashion and reflect in his work the psychology of his time


Imagine being in the mind of the designer who has to create the art form without using nature as a guide? The feeling must be similar to having to sink a 60 footer just to stay halved against an already dormy opponent. Freak out!


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2008, 11:34:59 AM »
Adam:

I'm not sure how much of Max Behr's writing you've read but it seems to me it's fairly important to pretty much read all of it to understand any of it even remotely well. I think the reason for that may be that when he wrote on golf course architecture he did it in very much the mode of a priori reasoning (I suppose some intellectuals or lawyers may claim he did it in the mode of a posteriori reasoning ;) ), if you know what I mean. In other words, his premises and articles all basically hinged or depended upon the validity of one another (from cause to effect) for him to reach some of his final assumptions and conclusions on the whole of it----eg which was essentially what he came to call "Permanent Architecture".

The only reason I even mention this is because of Behr's fairly seminal observation that since GCA really is a form of ART, as such the golf architect as an artist is certainly free to create and express in an interpretative way rather than just in a representative way (Behr actually said that) but that that is not the extent of it in GCA as it may be in other art forms.

What is really remarkable, at least to me, about what Behr said in that vein (the golf architect as an artist vs the paint artist, for instance), is the distinction he made between the "mediums" of a golf architect as an artist and a paint artist, for instance.

To him the complete distinction between the one versus the other is he felt the paint artist's medium was "paint" and that therefore he was the complete master of his medium (on a blank canvas, for instance), while the medium of the golf architect as artist was "earth" and he could never be the complete master of his medium. The reason for that is only Nature and her natural forces of primarily wind and water are the master over the medium of "earth."

Therefore, Behr's conclusion was the golf architect as artist must both respect and understand the master of his medium which was not him but Nature herself, where the paint artist to understand the master of his medium only needed to understand himself and what he was attempting to express in his art with his medium of paint on a blank canvas, for instance.  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 11:44:24 AM by TEPaul »

Rich Goodale

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2008, 11:40:47 AM »
Tom

If you would spend less time typing and more time reading, you would know that I first made that "man is a part of nature" comment well over 5 years ago on this site when Kirk Gill was still in swaddling clothes.  I'm sure that Rousseau and/or Hobbes beat me too it, but they haven't posted on here for over 100 years.

Adam

It was the starter at Pacific Grove that referred to you as "Goldilocks."  Run out of Clairol, have you? ;)

PS--if you want to "call me out," please know what you are calling about, and/or provide a quote, because I (and others) do not have a clue what you are saying, or at least trying to say.  Hiopefully a little clarity is not too much to ask...... :'(

Farnie

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2008, 11:42:51 AM »
Tom, I'm certain I've not read a lot of it. And I would have no idea on the time frame, or, the order in which he wrote it.

I appreciate the caveat (heads up) on interpreting out of context. So much of it, even out of context, seems to be so universally true. Especially his understanding of the human nature.

Looks like I'll bow out now. Thanx for the interesting thoughts and sharing of info.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: The Personal Interpretation of Golf Course Aesthetics
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2008, 11:54:17 AM »
"Tom
If you would spend less time typing and more time reading, you would know that I first made that "man is a part of nature" comment well over 5 years ago on this site when Kirk Gill was still in swaddling clothes.  I'm sure that Rousseau and/or Hobbes beat me too it, but they haven't posted on here for over 100 years."


Richard The Confident Philosopher:

Isn't that just so cute and impressive that you made that remark on here over five years ago and before Kirk Gill came on here or even before Kirk had been potty trained? And yes, I'm quite sure that both Rousseau and Hobbes and about 10 million other people, including me, beat you to that conclusion if it was something you came to on here just over five years ago. ;)

But what the Hell, we all need our own little contributions on here and so I feel you should be recognized anyway as the FIRST GOLFCLUBATLASER who came to the conclusion that MAN really is a PART of NATURE!  ;)

Hey, Richard, would you do me a favor and try to explain that to George Bush ie Carl Rove and the rest of his Creation Theorists known as our glorious Right Wing Moral Majority voting block?  :)

« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 11:56:19 AM by TEPaul »