[Steve_Roths]

Best New Private:    Gozzer Ranch

Best New Public:      Chambers Bay

Best New Canadian:  Tobiano

Best New Remodel:  Old Course at Saucon Valley Country Club

[Tom Naccarato]

Well, I'm glad I was proved wrong.

Jim, Regardless, I still think your a very good man and I look forward to someday talking more about this shit over a beer and a Diet Coke (my drink of choice nowadays)

Oh Fuck it, well do some vino!

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The thing about the Digest poll is that courses that certainly opened in 2008 -- e.g. Rock Creek and Tetherow, to name just two, will actually have to be assessed in 2009. At least that's I think will happen -- if I'm wrong I'm happy to offer a mea culpa.

Maybe someone can weigh in who has played Gozzer Ranch and spell out why they think it would be rated higher than either Rock Creek or Tetherow.

I'd love to hear the reasons.

Tommy's right -- pass the vino ...

[Seth Berliner]

Best New Private:    Gozzer Ranch

Best New Public:      Chambers Bay

Best New Canadian:  Tobiano

Best New Remodel:  Old Course at Saucon Valley Country Club

Any news on the rest of those lists?

[Rob Rigg]

Chambers Bay should have been best of last year . . . right?

Based on the discussions on this site courses like RCCC and Tetherow should probably have been in the running this year.

I wish all of the magazines would get out to courses the year they open.

I know this has been discussed ad naseum already but . . . okay, barf.

And I forgot that rankings don't matter, but still. 

[paul cowley]

.....with probably only 50 courses being opened next year its a good bet any one of those could make the Best New Top Fifty.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Gozzer is the place I've been watching for 10+ years.  The one-time owner is a very close friend.  Gozzer's got a storied and sometimes ugly history and someday I would like to write an article about it.  I'm way too bias to be objective but I tip my hat to the Discovery folks.  They came in as finishers and got the job done.  Gozzer is up there with Chambers and RCCC.  I have no problem with Gozzer being best new.

BTW - it is damn near astounding that Black Rock and Gozzer (almost within visual range of one another) are both best new's for Digest.  I also thought Digest blew it awarding Black Rock best new over Dallas Nat and Friar's Head (2003-4?).  I thought the editor's threw a bone to the northwest with the BR pick.  If I am anyway near right that makes this year's Gozzer pick even more surprising.

JC

[Jim Franklin]

Matt, you are correct, Rock Creek and Tetherow were not on this year's list. They will be on the 2009 list and I hope, if the market starts to cooperate, to make it out west next summer.

[Matt_Ward]

The "best new" category is really nothing more than whatever certain mags deem it to be.

Frankly, once a course has opened -- its opened. If the pubs cannot get sufficient raters to the place that's not the fault of the facility -- it rests with the magazine(s).

When you have places that have clearly made an impression and then the mags decide to hold off with an "official" listing that can be anywhere from 12 to 18 months after it's opened you have a clear case of the mags trailing what is already known by the cognescenti.

When that happens -- the standing of such mags becomes self evident. 

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I would be the first to agree that the "Best New" rankings are frustrating, in that they often leave out courses (or pass over them until next year when they are old news), and readers don't understand why.  By the time Sebonack won last year, we had long since moved on to other things.

However, you've worked with magazines enough to understand that there is a built-in delay in the process.  DIGEST's January issue is at the printers now ... to compile a list and get their photographers out to shoot the winners, that means they really have to close the polls by early September.  So there's a 4-month delay built into the system, and that hurts golf courses that open in the summer and only have a couple of months for potential panelists to visit them.

It would work MUCH better if they held off on their results until the March issue so they could take votes until November ... but everybody wants to put their "Best New" in the January issue, even if it's incomplete.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

As a GD panelist, we have to have all "Best New" votes in by the end of August. Courses need to let GD know by a certain time if they are open etc... I do not know the official opening of Tetherow or Rock Creek, but I am sure I found out well after the point I could even schedule a trip out there. As Tom said, magazines have deadlines and GD does the best it can. And compared to other mags, I think they do a decent job too.

[Philippe Binette]

Gotta love this line by Fazio about Gozzer Ranch:

“These epic views stop you in your tracks… you almost don't want to hit the ball because the view is so spectacular. In this way, the very setting makes every hole at Gozzer possibly the best.”

That's what it's all about, making the player not wanting to play  


Gozzer Ranch and Tobiano seems to put a huge focus on views.

[Joel_Stewart]

Gozzer was the favorite going back to last year.  It's Fazio and he has his followers from Golf Digest.  I also would be interested in the rest of the list.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I hear what you say but you missed the boat in one clear way ...

we live in a REAL TIME environment today. We also have info sources that better provide those who want to know what is happening.

I would think people who subscribe to a mag do so because they want to be informed on matters because they won't be getting that cutting edge info from any other source.

Mags needs to JUSTIFY why they continue to be relevant. They need to be ahead of even the more die-hard follower of the game or they simply relegate themselves to the tail position on the dog's body.

I hear what you say about the logistics -- but frankly that's a problem the mags should have addressed years ago. They each want to get ahead of the competition -- but when they list such courses it's clear they've missed out on others who truly did open in that given year.

One other thing -- the excuse that not enough raters got to see a course doesn't prevent the top editorial people from making a trek to those courses that clearly have garnered plenty of pre-buzz to see what's happening. You can see the info that's out there now w the Old Macdonald layuot -- the same thing happened to some extent with Chambers Bay and Erin Hills, to name just three.

For a course to be held off a full 18 months after it has opened and then still cling stubbornly to the belief that it's still new is a disservice to that respective club and those in the year that follows.

Your suggestion is a good one -- unfortunately, too many pubs today confuse being fast to print with the more important element of being accurate.

Phillippe B:

When did off-site views not matter to many people ?

See the fanfare Pebble Beach gets from many, to name just one example.

Jonathan:

Interesting point you made concerning the NW corner of the USA. It seems the panhandle area of Idaho and the SW corner of MT are now drawing plenty of eyeballs.

No doubt you are right -- the year Black Rock won it was a very contested year with the likes of Friar's Head and Dallas National -- arguably those three might have been the best of the lot when a trio of top new privates were considered.

[John Kavanaugh]

Gotta love this line by Fazio about Gozzer Ranch:

“These epic views stop you in your tracks… you almost don't want to hit the ball because the view is so spectacular. In this way, the very setting makes every hole at Gozzer possibly the best.”

That's what it's all about, making the player not wanting to play  


Gozzer Ranch and Tobiano seems to put a huge focus on views.

A week or so ago I started a thread concerning the overemphasis of "The Walk in the Park" test and its harm on architecture.  It becomes even more obvious through the words of Fazio.  All is not lost as I have found this link showing that audio is now under consideration in designing parks for the blind.  The video takes awhile but is worth the effort.

http://brezar.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/adjustments-for-blind-people-in-park-tivoli-ljubljana/

[Philippe Binette]

Views are important, golf is still the key to me...

I'll play Lytham or Garden City surrounded by industrial warehouses before a great views no substance course, anytime

[Philippe Binette]

I'm joking about Fazio's quotes,

I understand what he means, there are some holes that is so nice that the thought of hitting a bad shot on it almost make you want to pass your turn... Hitting a good shot on them is very rewarding...

[John Kavanaugh]

Please take note that Golfweek is still the head cheerleader for Fazio given the percentage of his courses in their rankings.

[Garland Bayley]

Tom:
...
we live in a REAL TIME environment today. We also have info sources that better provide those who want to know what is happening.

I would think people who subscribe to a mag do so because they want to be informed on matters because they won't be getting that cutting edge info from any other source.
...

If they want real time reporting, all they have to do is tune in here. For example, Peter had his review of Tetherow up very shortly after it opened, and it was followed shortly thereafter by a parade of posters including Dugger's fine photography.

[Sean Leary]

Gotta love this line by Fazio about Gozzer Ranch:

“These epic views stop you in your tracks… you almost don't want to hit the ball because the view is so spectacular. In this way, the very setting makes every hole at Gozzer possibly the best.”

That's what it's all about, making the player not wanting to play  


Gozzer Ranch and Tobiano seems to put a huge focus on views.

Philippe,

So does every course that has them. Do you think Kidnappers got built where it did due to the terrain for golf?

Where I have an issue with it is a case like Chambers Bay, where they went to the top of the property to cater to the view when it wasn't necessary, to the detriment of the golf course.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Philippe,

Remember, Whitman kept making this point while we were building Sagebrush. There are beautiful views everywhere, at Sagebrush. But, as Rod says, members/frequent visitors, who'll play the course over and over, over years and years, will eventually become somewhat de-sensitized to the views. This is when the pure quality of golf, over the ground, becomes most important.

[corey miller]

I won't comment on the "walk in the park test" or it's relevance but I do suspect that if one were to compare the course ratings for this category it would tend to favor the courses which already have superior architecture.  That is human nature.

[Philippe Binette]

It's an age old debate... Mackenzie was saying that the views at Cypress made people be OK with controversial design.

A lot of course have great views, and only great views. The design has to take advantage of the views and the grounds...

[Mike_Cirba]

While I've written here previously that the Fazio/Marzolff "Remodel" to Saucon Valley Old is quite good, I have to wonder what the criteria are for this category.

For instance, what about courses like Plainfield, CC of Troy, Sleepy Hollow, and Essex County that have implemented master plans based on "restorations" over the past 3-5 years?

Or is this category all about a complete shutdown and re-do?

[Garland Bayley]

Philippe,

Remember, Whitman kept making this point while we were building Sagebrush. There are beautiful views everywhere, at Sagebrush. But, as Rod says, members/frequent visitors, who'll play the course over and over, over years and years, will eventually become somewhat de-sensitized to the views. This is when the pure quality of golf, over the ground, becomes most important.

Jeff,

Thanks for that. When I read JN and TF going on and on about the scenery and framing, my mind just goes what about the golf!

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