Tom MacWood's Bethpage Mystery is posted

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
Actually that '37 written by Lester Rice (I wonder if he was related to Grantland Rice) article was the only one in that mentioned Burbeck as the lone designer. HB Martin's book 'Fifty Years of American Golf' (1936) wrote that Tillinghast was quite proud of his work at Bethpage which included planning and building the courses for the NY State Park Commission. It is interesting that talk of Burbeck the designer really died down after that article until today, even it appears between Burbeck and his son. The subject was taboo.

Jeff
I've never seen Tillie's contract. It would be interesting to get look at it and also the contracts of the other 'architectural consultants' and 'engineering consultants' that were non civil service employees -- like Aymar Embury and Othmar Ammann. Although from what Caro discover those contracts might only tell part of the story. There seems to have been a lot of under the table stuff going on.

That is true MacKenzie did sign contracts with ANGC and Ohio State for that matter. The difference is that those deals were signed very shortly after the stock market crash (10/29), they may not have known exactly how bad the Depression may have become. Tillinghast signed in Dec. 1933. And at some point he reduced his fee at Augusta, I think by half. And later accepted something like $1000 or $2000 and part of that was in ANGC bonds which pretty much worthless, the club claimed they had no money. Ohio State agreed to pay $1000 for the designs of the two courses and ended up settling with the estate for $500.

I'm not certain Tillignhast did not fulfill the terms of his contract. I don't think one should conclude the term 'laid off' implies there were days remaining unfulfilled. And it doesn't appear his departure was anything but amicable. Tillighast wrote positively about the courses, the State and Burbeck after he left. And Burbeck wrote about Tillinghast following his departure.

I'm not sure about the December 30 date. From my experience of working on contracts with State agencies, they've got funny regulations about when a contract has to be dated depending on when their year ends.

Moses had a monumental ego. Which is why the hire of Tillinghast as publicity stunt or for political cover was so unlikely. From reading Caro's biography it appears he was completely focused on the work in NYC in 1934-35, that and an unsucessful run for Governor.

And he didn't play golf, I doubt he would have had much input into construction of the golf courses. I don't think he would be concerned with anyone trying to upstage him or taking credit. Really he was rarely upstaged -- even by mayors, governors or presidents. And he was a master at taking credit.

There was an article in Golfdom (10/38) written by Lawrence Robinson of NY World, he said, "It is said that the peculiar genius of Robert Moses as public official is his ability to pick the right men and give them their way."

It still remains unclear exactly why Tillinghast departed, but it doesn't appear to be contraversial or strained.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ken
I have been to Cypress Point and those bunkers are no doubt different from what you see in 1929 photos. But that was through evolution, those bunkers gracefully evolved into what you see today. From what I understand CPC is attempting a historical restoration of their bunkers. Trying to match all the details. And as much as I love those old images, I also like the evolved look and I'm not sure it's a good idea and time will tell if it will be completely successful.

Unfortunately Bethpage didn't have the luxury to do anything, including age, gracefully. So when it was decided to renovate the golf course and rebuild the bunkers, they had a choice between remodeling them in a more modern stylized image or restoring them sympatheticly to their original less stylized image. They chose the former which many find quite appealing, my point is they (some of them anyway) are a departure from Tillinghast. Sometimes I think it wise to do these things in house and avoid architects natural inclination to introduce a little of their own style. I believe CPC is an in-house job.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Good catch in the dates.  If $10,000 was a standard fee in 1929, then $7500 may have been pretty good in '33.  I know I have, shall we say , varied my fee according to economic conditions, and bigger names have varied it even more dramatically, according to industry scuttlebut.  It would not be unusual for full service fees to drop at least that 25% in the depression, as they drop that much now.

The flexibility may have been mandated by economic conditions or state law.  I did a lot of the preliminary work on both courses at Giant's Ridge for the state of Minnesoata, for example, on an open ended work order, which is a flexible contract for consultants that allows the state to pick who they want w/o competitive bidding.  I signed it for a maximum $15,000 under state law, and when the scope of work changes, it is simply extended by another 15K.  I was certainly designing the golf course (at least routing) under this agreement.  

If NY had similar statuates, given what you found about Moses hiring the best, contracturally, it may have been as much about getting Tillie in as limiting his work.

Not to get off topic, but if we assume that Tillie spent all of 15 days, and did in fact perform his standard design services, I know things are more complicated now, for sure!  I also have to wonder how anyone can favor of crediting Tillie fully with the design at Bethpage, while trashing us modern guys for not spending enough time on site!  

For the record, my Quarry course at Giant's Ridge required over a 1000 hours of paper planning, and over 100 days of my time on site to get it where I wanted.  Not everyone will like the product, to be sure, but it ain't for lack of effort!  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Brian
I think its pretty clear why the greens are less than inspiring, Tillinghast left in 4/35 and the course wasn't opened until the following spring. Burbeck no doubt deserves credit for the non-Tillie like greens.

As far the consultant term, I think you will get arguements from architectural historians who give credit to a number 'consultants' who built a multitude of projects in New York at this same time.

I'm not suprised there aren't more drawings in this case, considering the army of draftsmen standing by. There is a story in the 'Power Broker' about Embury and Clarke (who were working on the design of Bryant Park together) having lunch and not being completely satisfied with their design and they began drawing on the table cloth. After lunch they asked it they could take with them and they immediately took it to their draftsmen to put on paper and then out to the site. I doubt they hung on to these rough drawing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Oops!  I just reread Tom's article.  Tillie got a maximum of $750 - not $7500.  That is a 93% drop in fees - much more than an architect would drop fees today! - and at a time when the LI Parks commission was paying up to $80 per week - not exactly pittance in those days - they could have afforded a more normal fee for Tillie if they wanted.

It seems likely to me that after hiring lots of out of work designers, there would be political pressure to use them to the fullest extent possible, making a reduced role for Tillie even more likely.  Also, once they decided they needed an architect, Tillie was local, in need of work and fairly famous.  I doubt Moses hired him for strictly design reasons, especially if he wasn't a golfer.  He probably got him cheap, probably on the advice of a staffer, when he knew he needed some advice as the project grew in scope.

Both suggest something less than a full design role for Tillie.  Which is all Ron Whitten implied in his article anyway, no?

[Rick Wolffe]

Jeff

The typical design fee charged by Tillie in the pre-depression 1920's was around $2,000.

And $750 in 1933/34 had significant buying power.

As an example, you could buy a fully loaded Cadillac for under $600 at that time.  Today a fully loaded Cadillac goes for over $50,000.

Normal selling discounts on work today when business is slow are not comparable to discounts during the Great Depression.  In fact during the Depression there was no discounting to get work period.  There was hardly any work to discount.  The Archie that got the job was the lucky one, as most of his competitor bretheren had no work.
Comparison of a consulting architect today to the title Tillie worked under at Bethpage is also a non-comparison.

I think one of Tom's most interesting points is that the quote that says Joe Burdeck "directed the design and construction" on a daily basis.  Now, I will compare this to a project that I worked on in which I directed the design and construction of the renovation of Boardwalk Hall and the development of a new convention center in Wildwood.  I was in charge of these projects for four years on a daily basis.   I would be a liar to say that I was the architect that designed these projects.  I would also be sued to boot by ECCB out of Phily and LMN out of Seattle.

[Kevin Rawley]

Some interesting quotes from today's LA Times...

Course Credit Not a Black or White Matter
 Controversy: Golf Digest Now Says Burbeck, Not Tillinghast, Designed Open Site
By MARYANN HUDSON HARVEY, SPECIAL TO THE TIMES

""We always deal with who was the architect of record, and, in the official 'The History of the Long Island State Parks' it states that the courses were designed and constructed by Joseph H. Burbeck with A.W. Tillinghast as consultant," said Ron Whitten, who wrote the May article for Golf Digest. "I'm surprised at the turmoil this has caused. I've been taken to task through e-mails and calls. The implication to some is that I'm diminishing the course or Tillinghast, but I'm not. It doesn't change the quality of the course."

The news stunned Philip Young, who recently published, "Golf for the People, Bethpage and the Black."

"My whole life is the Tillinghast course and, in my research, I came across the name Burbeck only three times," Young said.

According to Young, the 1959 history of Long Island state parks that Whitten cited was a reprint from an article originally published in the Long Island Forum magazine in June 1942, written by Chester Blakelock, then executive secretary of the Long Island State Park Commission. "Whitten bases his conclusion on one very tenuous mention in an article written in 1942," Young said. "I don't see how they can say that, from now on, Golf Digest will give credit to Burbeck."

Few were more surprised at Whitten's conclusion than golf architect Rees Jones, who prepared the Black for this week's championship.

"Every golf course has a combination of people, and I'm sure that some of Burbeck's ideas are in there too," Jones said by telephone last week. "But Tillinghast was the architect. The layout is so spectacular, and so natural and so well done, I can't believe an amateur could do it."

Joe Burbeck wrote to Jones before writing to Golf Digest, asking him to check the Black Course blueprints for his father's name. But there are no blueprints, no sketchbook, no record of the design, Jones says. There's no one to ask. Joe Burbeck Sr. died in 1987. Tillinghast died in 1942.

"Golf course architecture is a craft, and you need someone with experience to tell you what to do and how to do it," Jones said. "Plus there are so many Tillinghast characteristics, some very much like Pine Valley, which Tillinghast worked on," he added, referring to the great course in New Jersey.

Whitten produced other circumstantial evidence showing Burbeck as the designer, but nearly all of it is open to interpretation. He found that Tillinghast's contract to design the courses was for a period of 15 days at $50 a day, which, Whitten concluded, was not enough time to design four golf courses.

Jones disagrees. "There were a lot of courses Donald Ross never saw, but he sent his people," Jones said of one of the nation's premier course architects and a contemporary of Tillinghast.

Young, and other researchers of all-things-Tillinghast have their own circumstantial evidence--again subject to interpretation.

The Tillinghast Assn. offers writings about Bethpage by Tillinghast that appeared in Golf Illustrated, for which Tillinghast was editor for one year.

"Tillinghast even wrote that he was pleased with the enthusiasm and support he got from Burbeck," said Rick Wolffe, who has helped publish some of Tillinghast's writings.

Young says he will peruse the files of the Robert Moses archives after the Open, looking for correspondence between Tillinghast and Moses--searching for Tillinghast's precise role. Said Jones, son of renowned architect Robert Trent Jones: "I think the reason Tillinghast was called a consultant is at that time in the Depression, it was a make-work program, and you couldn't hire a big-time designer. I know that during that time my dad did work and didn't get paid."

Burbeck has his own views on why Tillinghast was hired. "My dad thought Robert Moses walked on water and if Robert Moses was going to say that Tillinghast was the designer, then my father would go with that," Burbeck said. "His name was there because Robert Moses needed a major golf complex and here he had an inside guy, a park superintendent doing the work, and what if it didn't work out and was a fiasco? So he attached a famous golf course architect to its name."

Officials at Bethpage remain steadfast that Tillinghast is the designer and say they have no reason to remove Tillinghast's name as Black Course architect.

This weekend, Burbeck will take his daughter and her husband to the Open, where they will walk the Black. Joe Burbeck says he has a few stories about the place he wants to tell them. "I'm sure some minds won't be changed," Burbeck said. "You don't mess with Mr. Tillinghast. But I'm satisfied I've done everything I can do. I'm satisfied the evidence is there."

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Jeff
How does Tillie's fee of $50/day compare to the top pay of $80/week for the architects and engineers on the payroll? How do you figure they could have paid him more?

I suspect Van Schaick may have been involved in the hiring of both Tillinghast and Hendehack, especailly since Moses didn't know anything about golf. We may never know who actually hired Tillie. When asigning atribution it really isn't that important if Tillinghast or Burbeck were hired by Moses or someone else. The more important question is why was Tillinghast hired in the first place and at what stage in the process was he hired?  

What political pressure was Moses under? The only pressure I've seen he was under, was the pressure to build as many projects as possible in the shortest period of time. What other architects had their roles reduced because of the out of work architects and engineers? There doesn't appear to be any evidence of that either. These out of work engineers and architects were actually out in the field doing the construction - everyone was kept extremely busy. As an example in 1934 they began construction/reconstruction on 10 golf courses in NYC alone and it was to be done in a matter of months by Labor Day (under the guidance of another golf architect Van Kleek).

Whitten suggested Burbeck designed the golf courses and that Tillinghast was brought in as a consultant after the fact. You are saying Tillinghast had a reduced role because of the presence of out of work architects and engineers (which doesn't jive with the evidence). I think they are two different stories. I don't think I agree with either one.

I do think he had reduced role in the construction, but he appears to have great confidence in Burbeck's abilities, not the first time a big time archiutect has had confidence in another and left them to carry out the day to day plan with minor supervision.

If your definition of a full design is taking it from inception to hitting the first ball on opening day, I agree Bethpage is less than a full design. But if that is that is the proper definition you better get the record book out and start changing the attributions of ANGC, Hirono, Royal Melbourne and a boat load of Ross designs to Wendell Miller, Cho Ito, Mick Morcom and Walter Hatch.  

Fortunately none of your own designs.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

RW,

I'm surpised Tillies fee in the 20's was $2000, assuming that the good doctors $10,000 for ANGC was typical for him.  In today's dollars, that is like me charging $200 versus a Nicklaus or Fazio at $1M.  I would have guessed that their reputations would have been similar, and the fees approximately the same.

Tom,

As I said, I hated to add only speculation, and then went right on to do just that.....but I felt like the consulting contract, and the fleet of draftsmen hired probably meant that Tillie didn't even draw his own renderings.  By that time, he may not have had any draftsmen on his own anyway.  Did he ever?  I know he had an office in NY, but did he have staff?

We agree that it was probably less than full design responsibility and that Burbeck had significant input in how Tillies concepts came out because of his construction.  Of course, when Whitten says Tillie had no style, I have always felt that it was probably a result of leaving construction to different people.  Again, I don't know if Tillie had his own construction crews (like Ross) or recommended anyone in particular, like MacKenzie, or if the Owner was on his own, and his crew had to make lots of decisions.

I guess we don't want to start changing the history books. Perhaps we should agree the Tillie should be the architect of record, as we thought previously, or perhaps with an *.  But, as you say, almost every course in the world would then have to be labeled the same way.

For example, if MacKenzie was back in America by the time his Australian courses were finished, some of the details we love were obviously actually done by someone else.  Most courses do have lots of input from different sources, and are more complicated than a simple "Tillie did it" but that doesn't change the fact that we want an architect of record.  

To my knowledge, it was Ron Whitten who first began listing not only the architect, but the associates who did a lot of the work, in his book.  Previously, who knew of the Paddy Coles, etc. of the world? That is a great service to the world of GCA and GCA buffs.  My only point is, that he would explore some of the intricasies of how BP came to be shouldn't be such a crime, worthy of the flaming he got on this site and elsewhere.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Jeff
I don't remember if Tillinghast's office was in NY or NJ at that time or if had a staff. RW would probably know.

I think you make some excellent points.

[Dunlop_White]

Tom,

I am not quite finished yet; but thus far, this is a wonderful write-up!!!! We need to start a magazine. I just can't figure out whether going broke would be worth a few more people reading our underground literature.

Thanks for the interesting read which has complimented our U.S. Open week!

Dunlop

[Wayne_Kozun]

Was this IMO deleted?  I can't find it on the IMO page.