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GeoffreyC

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2002, 06:03:36 AM »
Pat

I'm sorry.  Did I really do that?  I take it back.  No one should go out and play golf courses but instead stay indoors and look at pictures.  That will create more tee times for us to play when ever we want  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rees Jones Advocate

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2002, 06:18:29 AM »
As a big fan of Mr.Jones's designs and not so a big a fan of the poor treatment he receives on this site, I am heartened to read the positive comments. Hopefully with three GolfWeek panelists, Patrick, Mike and Geoffrey, singing the praises of Old K and the Atlantic they will move up the ranking to their deverved location near the top. Thanking you for being such excellent judges of design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

quest

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2002, 06:31:02 AM »
RJA, what are your fav RJ courses? IMO most of his work is very fine, but like Fazio he will never build a "MASTERPIECE" because he doesn't get close enough to the dirt. But then again, how many masterpiece's have been built since WWII, only a handful.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2002, 11:00:08 AM »
Advocate,

When did I ever sing the praises of OLD K ?
I've never seen or commented on the course.

How did you get the impression I'm a GolfWeek Panelist ?
I'm not.

Have you ever played Old K and Atlantic ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2002, 11:12:48 AM »
Curious if any participants in the outings at Atlantic the last couple of days have any comments...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2002, 08:35:17 PM »
RJ Advocate;

I should probably leave well enough alone, but I am somewhat uncomfortable with being viewed as part of some effort to favor or bash any particular architect, or be part of some online reputational rehabilitation.  

Rees Jones has been a golf course architect for almost 35 years.  His resume of courses should speak for itself at this point, both pro and con.  He has designed many, many courses, and I've played 11 of his original designs (including 2 he did under his father's name), and 6 he either redesigned or restored.  

I've also been critical of many of those courses in the past for various reasons, many of them purely aesthetic.  He went through a period from about 1984 until recently where I frankly couldn't understand how a guy with such exposure to the world's greatest classic courses seemed unable to bring those experiences into anything remotely close in his original designs.  We all know about what those designs entailed; row upon row of symmetrical containment mounds, overdone shaping elsewhere, really unnaturally ugly bunkering (tons of circular pots and squiggly amobas), and generally mundane green complexes, and it didn't matter if the course was in the mountains, desert, parkand, glades, or whatever, they all had the exact same look and feel.  

It frankly made me wonder if he indeed had the innate ability to be creative, original, or even had any aesthetic sense of using natural landforms in design.

Thankfully, I've seen enough of his newest courses to feel that he's made a number of VERY promising changes in his style.  His newer courses seem considerably more willing to take design chances, to work with each project as an individual site, and to attempt to utilize and enhance natural features there.

That is the way I prefer to judge courses...on a case by case basis, and not with preconceived biases or any type of favoritism or critical negativity towards ANY architect.  

Of recent courses I've played, Huntsville is very good and Olde Kinderhook is excellent.  I'm heartened to hear the positive assessment of friends who've played Ocean Forest and Atlantic.

Rees Jones gets a lot of work on some very good sites and I am encouraged that he seems to be willing to adapt.  His most recent work is proof positive that he has the ability to design superb original work, and I hope he builds another hundred or so of them.  :)  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2002, 09:06:59 PM »
Advocate

I love to play the game over amazing ever changing playing fields. I love the company of good playing partners and the esthetics of the outdoor experience.  I try to judge each course on its own merits based on my knowledge of golf architecture and as a player without any regard to the architect.

Please don't try to make it seem as if I have any agenda.  I most certainly do NOT.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJA

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2002, 09:28:05 PM »
Patrick
Sorry, my mistake. Yes, I have teed it up on those extremely fine links. You should see Old K, it really is top shelf.

Geoffrey and Mike
I'm only thanking you for your fairness, knowledge and excellent taste. It is refreshing in a sea of want-to-be myopics.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2002, 10:44:49 PM »
So RJA, What is his excuse for Sandpines?

Call me a Rees hater or whatever. I can also assure you that I'm not myopic. I am however a person with much different tastes then yours. It doesn't make me better or worse, richer or poorer, (More then likely poorer) nor myopic. I like a certain style that Rees claims to be an advocate of, yet I don't see it in his original designs. At least not by my eye. (I can't seem to find where squiggly-wiggly bunkers and loads of containment mounds are part of classic architecture.)

Go back a few months ago when I posted on the remodel of Torrey Pines and see if I was fair to his Reesness. You see, I think I can be objective.

Thankfully we have diverse opinions that can lead to many interest and discussion in many different design styles.

By the way, my name is Thomas Naccarato. Is there a reason why you won't post under your own name?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2002, 07:18:41 AM »
Why is somebody who doesn't like something automatically considered biased on this site? I am sure we all want to like every course we play. It is not like Tom Fazio or Rees Jones is a stock somebody is short and trying to force down. Can we please allow people to make negative comments that we don't all agree with and refrain from accusing them of myopia or bias or whatever?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2002, 08:30:13 AM »
Jeff Lewis,

If someone has played a golf course they are entitled to their opinion of it, good, bad or indifferent, and I don't think anyone has objected to that.

However, if someone has not played/studied a golf course and they render an opinion, it's either hearsay or bias, and that opinion should be weighted accordingly.  And.... for a while, there was plenty of that.

I can't recall any time, with one exception, when an individual played a golf course and rendered an opinion, and that opinion was labeled as bias.  The one exception was when a moron posted that Rees Jones courses don't make you think, and I questioned his ability to do same.

If someone plays a course and is critical of it, based on their assessment, it's as valid as someone playing the same course and being praiseworthy of it.

Can good and bad opinions be modified through dialogue, sure, why not, but bias..... you can talk until you're blue in the face and rarely alter bias.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2002, 08:49:23 AM »
redanman,

How would you describe the strategic aspects of atlantic and the bridge? How much did you have to consider lines of attack or club selection on one course vs. the other?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2002, 01:51:47 PM »
redanman:

Glad to see your comments regarding Atlantic and The Bridge. I had an opportunity to join the group of panelists who were present this weekend but needed to cover the Buick Classic. I have not see Atlantic in quite some time and the comments made by you, Geoffrey and others has certainly made me interested in seeing it again.

Bill -- appreciate your comments on The Bridge although I'm a bit more enthusiastic about it. ;D

To your credit, unlike a number of others, you took the time to actually play the course before lobbing out comments from pictures and the like. What helps The Bridge is its general location on the east end of LI because more people will likely see it than the other superb Rees Jones course in the Albany area -- the marvelous Olde Kinderhook track.

I agree with Mike Cirba that architects and the work they produce evolves over time -- both up and down. I'm glad there are people who don't hold to fixed beliefs about an architect and will judge each new effort with at least an open mind. Rees has clearly evolved from years past and I believe his style is much more adventurous and clearly not so utterly predictable. Not all of his recent designs are home runs but I believe the trio of OK, The Bridge and Nantucket are ones any serious student of architecture should take the time to play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

dick cesana

Re: Miracle on Breeze Hill
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2002, 10:54:08 PM »
:)The book is almost as good as the man.A true lover of life and the game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »