Shoreacres vs Fox Chapel

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I recently played both courses and am curious about which would be considered the better course.  Both courses have similar memberships, and are highly regarded Raynor's.  I do have an opinion, but will reserve comment until some interesting points have been made.

[Ari Techner]

I have played both multiple times and I would pick Shoreacres though both are grean and alot of fun to play.  To me Shoreacres is on a better piece of land with the natural ravines and is more unique and spectacular in spots.  The other thing that really sets it apart imo is the quality of the original holes especially 11 and 15.  I do however think Fox Chapel has a better set of greens.  I think FCs greens are the most varied and interestingly countoured Raynor greens that I have played.  So while both are must plays imo I would take a round at SA tomorrow over a round at FC. 

[Tom_Doak]

Robert:

I've played Shoreacres many times but I've only been around Fox Chapel once, and that was before their most recent restoration.

I would agree with Ari's assessment.  Shoreacres is a cool piece of ground and holes such as 11 and 15 put it over the top for me. 

It's probably a closer call than the magazine rankings give it credit for being -- Shoreacres makes some of the top-100 lists and Fox Chapel only the GOLFWEEK Classic Courses list.  In truth, there are a lot of Raynor courses which aren't separated by too much, and while you need to have some of them in any ranking you can't put them all in, so the separations get exaggerated.

I'm sure you favor Fox Chapel or you wouldn't have started this thread, so you might as well say why.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shoreacres is one of my all time faves.  But I like all Raynor courses and FC is not far behind. I love the Dustpan green there.

[J_ Crisham]

Jeff,   In addition to being a world class golf course, SA  has some other intangibles.  The fact that the course can be as rewarding for a 20 hndcp as for a 5 is a special attribute. Much like CPC or Crystal Downs.  It doesn't beat you up with length. The serene setting is special for Chicago. Only a few clubs where you can enjoy a postround cocktail with a gorgeous view of the lake. The individual buildings are pretty neat as well. Very different from what I experience at Beverly with planes,trains,firetrucks etc. SA would be the club for me in Chicago by a whsker over CGC.
                                                                              Jack

[PCCraig]

I agree with many of the points made so far on Shoreacres. While I have never been to FC, I have played Shoreacres many times.

While the second half of the course gets much of the attention by playing in and out of ravines, I very much enjoy the first six holes. The second "cape" style hole (which they were expanding the tee box when I was there last week so that the green is visible from the tee) with the very cool green and the third hole with half of the green blind and a hidden bunker on the left side is great too.

My favorite 3 holes are 12-13-14. I think the routing was perfectly done playing around essentially one ravine.

A question for T. Doak;

I know you have been working with Shoreacres for some time on a 'master' plan for the course and are familiar with the course. The 3rd hole (the most underrated IMO) has the fairway bunker on the right side maybe 150 yards from the tee, just beyond that is a gentile swale in the ground. I think when Raynor built that bunker it must of been in play for almost everyone playing the course, but today I can't imagine it affecting the strategy of the hole much at all. Did you or your associates ever think of moving that bunker another 75 yards toward the green? Just something that I have noticed and would be curious to hear your thoughts.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I had a feeling that most responses would favor Shoreacres.  And Tom is correct that I was leaning in favor of Fox Chapel.  I don't even see it as close.  I found Fox Chapel to be consistently strong , whereas, Shoreacres has some very bland holes.
   There is no question that holes #2, and 10-15 are all-world.  I would venture to say that the 12th is the best version of short that I've played--sorry NGLA, which I love.  In saying that these holes are all-world, I do think that the 14th and 15th greens are fairly flat and lacking interesting internal contours.  The Redan is in name only--the supposed kicker is a backstop, since the green is nearly flat and probably does not have more that 1degree of right to left slope.  As an angled green par 3 over a ravine it is a wonderful hole.  What holds the course back is a set of average at best holes--1, 3, 5-9, 16, and 18.  The Biarritz has the shallowest swale of all the one's I've seen in addition to being practically flat sloped.
    While Fox Chapel lacks a wild ravine, it does have great rolling terrain.  And I strongly believe that the 5th with its meandering brook  is the equal of Shoreacres 2nd.  I found the Eden to be among Raynor's strongest versions.
  The Biarritz is well discussed because only Yale and Creek can be considered equals.  The reverse Redan is slightly uphill, so it fits one insistant GCAers definition of a redan, with great contours on the green.

I've now played quite a few Raynor courses and find the greens to be in the quality range of Camargo and Fisher's Island. 

[George Pazin]

Thanks for the photos - that's my house in the background of the Eden photo, btw.

Or maybe I should say that's where I hope to live someday....

Robert, did you happen to see the before and after photos for FC, in regards to its relatively recent work (last 5 years or so)? That's probably a big part of why the raters haven't responded yet to FC. The difference is rather remarkable. Perhaps one of our posters could provide more info - I'll try to dig up my photos. I have scans from the Curtis Cup program book a few years ago and the photos in the book are pre-restoration; as I said, the difference is remarkable.

Tom P has commented quite extensively on FC in the past, hopefully he'll see this thread and chime in.

Tom D likely hasn't set foot in the Burgh since giving Oakmont a 9 in the TCG. He knows I'll get him. In all seriousness, few come to the Burgh and tee it up at the wonderful Fox Chapel. If they're coming here for golf, they're coming for Oakmont first (by a country mile) and then usually Pittsburgh Field Club, as it tends to get more publicity than Fox Chapel (I'm not quite sure why, though I haven't played either, only walked both extensively).

A cute anecdote about one of my most recent experiences at Fox Chapel:

I was scheduled to attend a friend's wedding at the Field Club. There was a gigantic rainstorm and large segments of the boro of Fox Chapel ended up being without power on the prior Thursday, 2 days before the wedding. The kind folks at Fox Chapel were able to accommodate the wedding reception. When questioned about the last minute switch, the beautiful bride informed us that the rehearsal dinner the night before had been moved from Long Vue CC to Oakmont, a one day switch. You know you are living right when you can pull off a switch like that.

[Gerry B]

have played both courses numerous times  - including Fox Chapel this summer after the recent tree removal - which is a big improvement

my thoughts:

shoreacres is the better course:

better piece of property - raynor's use of the little creeks running through the course is fabulous

fox chapel has a better  / tougher start however shoreacres flows better as the holes keep getting better - the run of holes 10-15 is one of the great stretches in golf

both courses have a couple of mediocre holes but the best holes at Shoreacres are much superior to Fox Chapel's best
shoreacres is quirkier

if i were to compare the par 3's:

short - shoreacres
eden - fox chapel
redan - shoreacres
biarritz - a draw

par 5's i would give the edge to fox chapel  - especially the finishing hole

imho  fox chapel has a similar feel to camargo and st louis cc as opposed to shoreacres - however camargo is a much stronger course in particular the par 3's -one of the best set of 1 shotters in america and would give a slight edge to st louis cc as well - again the par 3's are outstanding plus a 5th par 3 - the crater hole - the course could use some tree removal

[George Freeman]

Thanks for the pictures Robert!  Would you mind posting anymore if you have them?  The course looks fantastic.

Hopefully some day I will be able to join the conversation!

[George Pazin]

...but the best holes at Shoreacres are much superior to Fox Chapel's best

I'm just curious - what do you consider Fox Chapel's best? Outside of a lack of ocean, I don't see many holes anywhere as "much superior" to FC's best.

[tlavin]

Sounds like a fun situation where one is comparing apples to apples.

[Gary Gruber]

While I can not compare the two I did have the opportunity to play Fox Chapel in early October and was impressed by both conditioning and design, I played ten of the top U.S courses and while Fox Chapel may not of had the surroundings of many of the other courses it was great experience

[gookin]

It is always a pleasure to see our course discussed on this great site. For those who have not been to our course in the recent past you may want to reserve your opinion. Over the past few years, we have recaptured our corridors of play with targeted tree removal, we have restored our deep steep faced bunkers, and we have changed our agronomic practices under the guidance of a bright young superitendent, Jason Hurwitz, to deliver more desireable playing conditions. We love to show it off to those who appreciate the charms of Seth Raynor.

[Ronald Montesano]

It is always a pleasure to see our course discussed on this great site. For those who have not been to our course in the recent past you may want to reserve your opinion. Over the past few years, we have recaptured our corridors of play with targeted tree removal, we have restored our deep steep faced bunkers, and we have changed our agronomic practices under the guidance of a bright young superitendent, Jason Hurwitz, to deliver more desireable playing conditions. We love to show it off to those who appreciate the charms of Seth Raynor.

How mysterious!  We have no idea of which course you speak...Go Chapel.

[Mark Studer]

Mysterious?   David Gookin  , like me , is a "FCGC lover".    Gerry B   - I think that all 4  three pars at FCGC are superior to those fine holes at SA.  The Biarritz at Shore Acres is one of the weaker of the 16 Biarritz holes  I have been fortunate enough to play. Tough to beat the Biarritz at Fishers.     Fox Chapel's conditioning is improving each week.  Their young sup't is skilled and well trained.  Congratulations to the staff and green committee at FCGC.

[Ari Techner]

It is always a pleasure to see our course discussed on this great site. For those who have not been to our course in the recent past you may want to reserve your opinion. Over the past few years, we have recaptured our corridors of play with targeted tree removal, we have restored our deep steep faced bunkers, and we have changed our agronomic practices under the guidance of a bright young superitendent, Jason Hurwitz, to deliver more desireable playing conditions. We love to show it off to those who appreciate the charms of Seth Raynor.

You guys should be VERY proud of your course.  The restoration work is spectacular and the few times I have been there it has been in terrific shape especially the greens.  I had one of my most memorable rounds there with my father last year.  It was his first introduction to Raynor and for someone who doesnt know much about GCA it was really so much fun to see how much he enjoyed it.  Highlight for him was a 2 putt from the middle of the swale on 17 (putting is not his strength....) 
So while I say I prefer SA for a round tomorrow it is very close.  I would give them both an 8 if asked to rate them.     

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I have been reflecting upon this course the past few days and am convinced that it is easily one of Raynor's top 5.  I think Fishers Island and Camargo are his best courses, from there, Fox Chapel, Fairfield, and Yeomans Hall must take the nod. I was a little rushed for daylight at the end of the round, but did not find anything on the mediocre side as far as holes were concerned.  Due to technology, I think the 2nd has become an all-world long punchbowl par 4--different terrain, but along the lines of Fisher Island's hole.  And I will put the 5th up against Shoreacres 2nd any day as a great short Cape hole.