The Jekyll & Hide potion - The Wind

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim - good post.

I played a golf course last month that, given the natural lay of the land,  could have easily had sloped/canted fairways of all kinds (or so it seemed to my un-trained eye). But it didn't -- and in fact the designer seemed to have gone out of his way to create level lies everywhere.  I don't understand it. I've seen it before on the mostly modern designs I play, golf courses with all sorts of appealing and interesting features and options, except for sloped/canted fairways.  I remembered your previous posts about Huntington Valley, and then this post reminded me again -- sloped/canted fairways seem to add so much to tee shots and second shots both, but they don't get mentioned or utilized nearly enough these days.

Peter

[JESII]

Peter,

We have a really interesting course project in this area built by the students of Glen Mills Academy with the design by Bobby Weed. Many on here rave about it, and it is a good course on very difficult terrain (to my equally untrained eye) but I left wondering why he leveled out the fairway soooo much. Many of the holes are carved into the side of really steep slopes and the fairways seem to almost tilt back into the hill ever so slightly.

I will be happy to be proven wrong on this by Mike Malone or Cirba (whom I think both love the course) but it seemed just a little too artificial. Maybe there is an architectural reason because it would have seemed to solve alot of drainage issues if they had left some real slope in the fairways.

[Peter Pallotta]

There's a pattern here, Jim - or so it seems.  The site I'm talking about was probably farmland (the surrounding countryside still is), and it looks like it was probably flat but quite substantially sloped/canted (in two main "directions").  The golf course that emerged, though, has rumpled but level fairways throughout, mounding and bunkering along most fairways -- and several areas with bad drainage.  They moved a lot of dirt to get rid of all the slope in the fairways, and then moved more dirt to add features back -- features that I'm almost sure don't add more shot-testing to the course than the sloped fairways would have.  I'm left wondering if there is some unspoken consensus amongst developers or designers that sloped/canted fairways are not something most golfers like....which I find hard to believe --even for an average golfer like me, and even without really firm and fast conditions, they add much interest and challenge and nuance.   I don't like being critical around here, and I enjoyed the golf course well-enough anyway....I just really don't understand why the designer felt the need to go to so much trouble to avoid the canted fairway (he kept/used an uphill and downhill slope, by the way)

Peter

[JESII]

Maybe it has something to do with controlling the chemicals in the runoff, I don't know. Like I said, the course is good, and a great story, but seemingly could have been more.

[Peter Pallotta]

Maybe it has something to do with controlling the chemicals in the runoff, I don't know. Like I said, the course is good, and a great story, but seemingly could have been more.

Jim - thanks. See - that possibility/explanation would never have occurred to me. If true (and it seems plausible enough) it's another example of how expectations about maintenance shape architecture...and costs...and the nature of the game for both amateurs and pros.

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Maybe we should set aside a portion of the site for soliloquies, because you're at it again. If you would at least name your threads better we'd know what we were getting into. This one should be named 'The Jekyll & Hide potion - Wind at Seminole'.

Lloyd Cole,

When you initiate a thread, please feel free to name it whatever you want.
When I start a thread I'll choose a title I deem appropriate, and in this case the multiple personality of a hole, caused by the wind, fits the title.

Instead of being a small minded nit-picker, why don't you try making meaningful contributions vis a vis intelligent, on topic posts ?

My thread wasn't confined to Seminole, I merely used # 10 at Seminole as an example, Exhibit "A" if you like.

[Patrick_Mucci]

OK Pat, if it's as black and white as pass/fail I assume there is a specific yardage number below which a hole is considered "narrow" and above which a hole is considered "wide"...what is it?

JES, for a smart guy that sure is a dumb question.
Your question ignores topography, wind direction, wind velocity and the general and specific configuration of the hole.

Like Obscenity, you'll know it when you see it.

If you have a fairway 100 yards wide and a green sitting there as flat as a pancake why would you ever intentionally aim anywhere other than the shortest route home?

Because a three to four club length wind is blowing left to right is one reason.
A second would be the configuration of the surrounding hazards, margins of error and your course management skills.

If a wind is blowing hard right to left and bunkers line the left side of the fairway, why on earth would you aim down the middle of the fairway ?

Same question relative to the green.
With bunkers left of the green and a good right to left wind blowing, why would you aim at the center of the green ?

Answers:  You wouldn't.

The green complex (and its orientation) dictates the intentional use of width...if the hole then has that width it's a bonus, but not mandatory to make the hole interesting.

That's not true, as my two examples above illustrate.

Obviously, we are not discussing an either or situation of 20 yard fairways and knee high rough beyond that as compared to 60 yard fairways...we're talking about the real world of golf course we play and the variety inherent in them. 30 - 40 yard wide fairways tend to be the norm with some courses being more penal than others just off the fairways.

Width is a NECESSARY, if not THE CRITICAL requirement on windy sites.

30 yard wide fairways are INSUFFICIENT on WINDY sites.
Tell me that you understand and agree with that.

My home course has 35 or so yard wide fairways that play a small fraction of that width in the summer because of the firmness and significant slope...fortunately, the low side rough is gereally a good place to play from...we keep the rough pretty low most of the time, and never water it do dry fairways also means dried out rough...

The architectural features remain static, they never change.
But, the wind on windy sites does.
It changes direction and velocity and it changes the relationship between the golfer and the features he was meant to interface with.

WIDTH is the primary requirement on WINDY sites.
 

[JESII]

Pat,

You may want to go back in and modify that last post to make sure you get the bold green highlights on your responses to may statements as opposed to everything in there.


As to knowing width when you see it...I strongly disagree. A wide looking hole can play extremely narrow with slopes and punishing rough while a narrow looking hole can play wide with soft ground and light rough...also...the green complex also dictates the realistic width of a fairway much more so than the fairway cut lines.

And you know when I talk about aiming at the middle of a 100 yard wide fairway I am talking about where you would want your ball to end up, and not actually starting the ball there regardless of any other condition...so...in that light:

What wind condition would ever benefit one side of the 14th fairway at Seminole over the other...assuming we are trying to make the lowest score possible?

[Patrick_Mucci]

You may want to go back in and modify that last post to make sure you get the bold green highlights on your responses to may statements as opposed to everything in there.


I did, thanks

As to knowing width when you see it...I strongly disagree. A wide looking hole can play extremely narrow with slopes and punishing rough while a narrow looking hole can play wide with soft ground and light rough...also...the green complex also dictates the realistic width of a fairway much more so than the fairway cut lines.

That's a very limited visual perception solely from the tee.
My remarks were all encompassing in terms of the obtaining of data as you traverse the entire hole.

And you know when I talk about aiming at the middle of a 100 yard wide fairway I am talking about where you would want your ball to end up, and not actually starting the ball there regardless of any other condition...so...in that light:

Before I address the items below, knowing where you want your ball to end up and getting it there are two different things.  Secondly, wanting your ball to end up close to a hazard/bunker and risking the consequences of attempting to get it there are two different things.

What wind condition would ever benefit one side of the 14th fairway at Seminole over the other...assuming we are trying to make the lowest score possible?

It would depend upon your ball flight that day and the location of the hole.
Is the hole cut far left or far right.  Obviously this would affect your tacking philosophy/strategy, especially in the context of your ball flight that day.  So, virtually every wind can benefit or harm your play, depending upon the variables listed above.

Hope that helps

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

We have a really interesting course project in this area built by the students of Glen Mills Academy with the design by Bobby Weed. Many on here rave about it, and it is a good course on very difficult terrain (to my equally untrained eye) but I left wondering why he leveled out the fairway soooo much. Many of the holes are carved into the side of really steep slopes and the fairways seem to almost tilt back into the hill ever so slightly.

I will be happy to be proven wrong on this by Mike Malone or Cirba (whom I think both love the course) but it seemed just a little too artificial. Maybe there is an architectural reason because it would have seemed to solve alot of drainage issues if they had left some real slope in the fairways.

Jim,

I do like most of the front nine at Glen Mills a great deal, but I'm much less enamored of the back, where the holes are squeezed between a steep ledge on the left and goop on the right.

Like you said, it's a really good job on a tough property, with some great classical features, but ultimately it's no more than a Doak 5 in my book.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Pat

Did you ever ask a question, in your posts on this site, that you didn't already know the answer to?

[JESII]

What wind condition would ever benefit one side of the 14th fairway at Seminole over the other...assuming we are trying to make the lowest score possible?

It would depend upon your ball flight that day and the location of the hole.
Is the hole cut far left or far right.  Obviously this would affect your tacking philosophy/strategy, especially in the context of your ball flight that day.  So, virtually every wind can benefit or harm your play, depending upon the variables listed above.

Hope that helps

It seems to Pat...because it seems to support my argument that hole location dictates your intentional, strategic use of width (ie: improved angle to the hole). Undoubtedly, a particular hole location which successfully dictates strategy is a function of the green complex...correct?

[Patrick_Mucci]

What wind condition would ever benefit one side of the 14th fairway at Seminole over the other...assuming we are trying to make the lowest score possible?

It would depend upon your ball flight that day and the location of the hole.
Is the hole cut far left or far right.  Obviously this would affect your tacking philosophy/strategy, especially in the context of your ball flight that day.  So, virtually every wind can benefit or harm your play, depending upon the variables listed above.

Hope that helps

It seems to Pat...because it seems to support my argument that hole location dictates your intentional, strategic use of width (ie: improved angle to the hole).

What you don't understand is that that only applies IF you have width.

If you don't have width, but narrow fairways instead, you're now a prisoner of target golf with no substantive options.

Undoubtedly, a particular hole location which successfully dictates strategy is a function of the green complex...correct?

NOT WITHOUT WIDTH.

ESPECIALLY ON WINDY SITES

WIDTH is the critical element on windy sites.

Substantive winds reduce effective fairway width dramatically.

On a site with substantive winds and narrow fairways your only option is to hit the narrow fairway, thus condemning you to a single strategy.

[JESII]

Pat,

Width has nothing to do with the strategies involved in playing #14 at Seminole. A front hole location with the hole playing downwind would make little half shots very difficult while a back pin on an into the wind day would make those half shots ideal...

There are plenty of holes that benefit from width, but the green complex always dictates play. As I retorically alluded to earlier, there is no black and white number for determining wide versus narrow. You agreed in saying you know it ('ample width') when you see it, but you also suggested that #14 at Seminole had ample width...so I would question your judgement on this topic.

#14 at Seminole is a really cool half par hole that changes dramatically with the wind and ground conditions, but there are virtually zero reasons to attempt to leave your ball closer to an edge of the fairway than the center on either first or second shots.

[JESII]

I do think the source of our disagreement is in the definition of WIDTH, and our ideas of how many courses maintain their fairways width an ample supply.

I think most courses maintain their fairways at 30 - 35 yards with some being slightly wider. 50 yards plus would be a substantial difference from what I typically see and I know of very few courses approaching 50 yard average width fairways, windy site or not...do you?

[Rich Goodale]

JimakaJESII

I tend to agree with you that the more the wind the less the relative improtance of fairway width in relation to the quality of the green complex.  And, as you implied earlier, fast and firm courses in general  play much easier into the wind than against it, regardless of fairway width.  An often forgotten aspect of playing into a strong wind is that if you miss short (as one normallly does, particularly in those conditions, the pitch to the hole is much eaier than it would be downwind.

Pat

I agree with Lloyd that you should try to expand your examples beyond Seminole both to better test your hypothesis and also to allow more people to be involved in the debate.

Rich

[JESII]

JimakaJESII

a request from above...




Interesting observation about 'the next shot' in windy conditions...could easily tie into my comments on Peter Pallotta's "Canted Fairway" thread about the similarities of side hill lies to side wind shots.

Underplaying or executing a sidehill shot always feels stupid because now you have left the ball above the hole...same can be said of all wind conditions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Width has nothing to do with the strategies involved in playing #14 at Seminole.

JES,

You've made a number of bonehead statements, but the one above might make the GCA.com top 10 list.

A front hole location with the hole playing downwind would make little half shots very difficult while a back pin on an into the wind day would make those half shots ideal...

The members and their guests won't be hitting "little half shots" for their approach when the hole is playing into the wind.
Your example completely ignores perimeter or flanking hole locations, choosing instead to limit hole locations vertically, not horizontally.

There are plenty of holes that benefit from width, but the green complex always dictates play.

That's untrue.
Golfers rarely go wrong hitting to the middle of a green.
A windy site MUST have width in the fairway.

The wind can reduce the DZ by 1/2 to 1/3 to 1/4 it's size.
If you have a narrow fairway subjected to substantive winds the hole becomes unmanageable as the velocity of the wind increases, irrespective of the configuration of the green.

As I retorically alluded to earlier, there is no black and white number for determining wide versus narrow.

That's because it varies with the direction and velocity of the wind.

You agreed in saying you know it ('ample width') when you see it, but you also suggested that #14 at Seminole had ample width...

Your logic and your conclusions are flawed.
I clearly stated that width is also contexted in topography and wind velocity, but, that you'll know if a fairway has adequate wind when and after you play it, not just from the tee as you alluded to.

so I would question your judgement on this topic.

When you open your mind, I think you'll find that my judgement is rather sound when it comes to this issue.

#14 at Seminole is a really cool half par hole that changes dramatically with the wind and ground conditions, but there are virtually zero reasons to attempt to leave your ball closer to an edge of the fairway than the center on either first or second shots.

I disagree.

If the hole is cut at the flanks, one should attempt to place their second shot toward the opposite flank in the fairway, rather than the center of the fairway
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I'd suggest that you, Lloyd and others go back and reread the opening post on this thread.

I cited, as an example, the 10th hole at Seminole.

If others want to participate, they're free to do so as the discussion wasn't limited to the 10th hole at Seminole, or any hole at Seminole.

[JESII]

Pat,

Where will these members and guests be playing their third shots from on #14 if they are not hitting little half shots?

[Sean_A]

I tend to agree with you that the more the wind the less the relative improtance of fairway width in relation to the quality of the green complex. 

Rich

What in the world does this mean? 

Confused in Cleeve Prior

[David_Madison]

The Ocean Course has eighteen holes that change personality with the wind's strength and direction. Don't know that there's a prevailing direction per se, but didn't Pete Dye design it so that every hole could be flexed in distance a huge amount to react to the wind of the day? The tremendous width of the course at all different lengths off the various tees while still having some interior hazards makes it all work well.

[Rich Goodale]

I tend to agree with you that the more the wind the less the relative improtance of fairway width in relation to the quality of the green complex. 

Rich

What in the world does this mean? 

Confused in Cleeve Prior

Dear Confused

In a strong wind, regardless of in which direction, you are far less likely to be able to reach Position A (or even the fairway) from the tee.  Therefore, the quality of the green complex becomes much more important in to how the hole plays than does fairway width.  That is all.  You're welcome and hopefully no longer confused.

Pat

We all know that you were only using the 10th at Seminole as an example, but your trying to pummel those who disagree with you to death hardly helps any of us who have never played there to better understand your argument, particularly if the only "evidence" you present is anecdotal.  Even if the 10th at Seminole is your only example, it would help if you described in detail how the hole plays in different winds, from tee to green and analysing several alternative outcomes for each shot.  A picture or diagram of two would help, too.

Jim

Were you talkin' to me?

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Where will these members and guests be playing their third shots from on #14 if they are not hitting little half shots?

I can't tell you the exact locations, but, it will be much further back with a good wind in their face off the tee.  With a wind in your face off the tee there won't be many, if any half shots into that green by the membership.

You forgot something when you posed the question to me about hitting one's second shot toward the fairway edges on # 14, and that's the crux of this thread, the WIND.  With a 2-3 club wind from the north (right to left) and the hole cut front right you would want to be in the fairway as far left as possible for your approach to that hole location and NOT in the center of the fairway..  You might even find the left rough a desirable location.

If the pin was cut front left with the wind out of the south, you'd want to be as far right as you could be.

[Patrick_Mucci]

We all know that you were only using the 10th at Seminole as an example, but your trying to pummel those who disagree with you to death hardly helps any of us who have never played there to better understand your argument, particularly if the only "evidence" you present is anecdotal.


I'm not sure that I understand the above statement, so let me see if I can paraphrase it.

I'm having a debate with JES about the 14th hole at Seminole.
No one else is involved in that debate.
JES is the ONLY one with whom I'm having a disagreement regarding the 14th hole.

How is that pummeling everyone ?

Oh, I forgot, Lloyd Cole's second post was a smart ass comment that I addressed appropriately.

Even if the 10th at Seminole is your only example, it would help if you described in detail how the hole plays in different winds, from tee to green and analysing several alternative outcomes for each shot.  A picture or diagram of two would help, too.

I indicated on the thread on Plainfield that my "Google Earth" feature was malfunctioning.

If someone could post the aerial of # 10 I"d be happy to comment on how various winds affect play, on the drive, approach, recovery and putts.

I thought that I provided a brief description in my opening post, but would be happy to expand upon it if someone would post that aerial.

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