Trump International Golf Links - Design and Layout

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ian:

I thought they looked photoshopped, too, but why the heck would someone photoshop the tees and greens and not the fairways?


Ally:

How was I being unfair?  I didn't comment at all about the tees at Trump International, and the only one I can really see in the photos looks fine.  I'm not a fan of square tees, and I certainly didn't think Martin's suggestion of square tees for Royal Melbourne was appropriate since that was never what was there.  But all I meant to imply about the tees at Trump is that Martin is apparently a big fan of rectangles, so I would guess all the tees are that way.

I did find YOUR comment about the contractors interesting, that they would not be making any decisions, and just building the course to plans and specs provided by the designer.  I'm sure they would say the same, to avoid stepping on toes.  But, do you really think that's the best way to go about a project?

Tom,
Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying but it did seem that you were implying Hawtrees’ philosophy on tee design is unsuitable for this site as well as Royal Melbourne…

Just the same way it seemed that Scott was implying that these particular golf contractors may have a heavy handed approach to flattening everything out…

You know as well or better than I that the method that Hawtree uses is Design & Tender with site supervision. What I was saying is that there is no way SOL will have had license to make wholesale changes in flattening out fairway contours off their own back (at least they shouldn't have)… Do I think that design-tender-site supervision is the best way to do a project, on a links course especially…  I’ll leave that unanswered and you can read between the lines… or I could just say NO... But hey, what do I know?

EDIT: Actually, I should qualify that... As I understand it for this project, the designers are effectively on-site full time and they've had such a close working relationship with SOL in the past that it could be considered kind of a halfway house between two contracting models...

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:

I actually had no idea what Hawtree's method is.  You are right, if it's just a construction contract, the contractor should not be making big decisions on what fairway contours to change or leave alone ... but sometimes they do provide valuable input.

I realize you are not an expert on this project, but since you're the one who noted that they are turfing the greens, do you know why they chose that approach vs. seeding?  I would always prefer to seed everything, unless the grow-in window is just too short.  I guess some people think that sodding the greens makes them come in faster so you can open sooner, but in my experience, it's the fairways or even the roughs, rather than the greens, that are usually the weakest link.  The greens are built from perfect material, with perfect drainage, with no major surface drainage across them, and they are a relatively small area -- so grow-in is a breeze.  Thirty or forty acres of fairway seeded over a period of months usually yield a couple of problem spots.  I suppose Mr. Trump has the money to go out and fix those with sod, too.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally:

I actually had no idea what Hawtree's method is.  You are right, if it's just a construction contract, the contractor should not be making big decisions on what fairway contours to change or leave alone ... but sometimes they do provide valuable input.

I realize you are not an expert on this project, but since you're the one who noted that they are turfing the greens, do you know why they chose that approach vs. seeding?  I would always prefer to seed everything, unless the grow-in window is just too short.  I guess some people think that sodding the greens makes them come in faster so you can open sooner, but in my experience, it's the fairways or even the roughs, rather than the greens, that are usually the weakest link.  The greens are built from perfect material, with perfect drainage, with no major surface drainage across them, and they are a relatively small area -- so grow-in is a breeze.  Thirty or forty acres of fairway seeded over a period of months usually yield a couple of problem spots.  I suppose Mr. Trump has the money to go out and fix those with sod, too.

Tom,

I didn't mean to make it sound like the contractor would not be providing valuable input... I just figured that large changes to contouring would not come without significant designer direction...

Actually it was Ally Matheson of Cruden Bay who noted they were sodding the greens, not me... Common mistake understandably... That said, it seems an unusual decision indeed... I've no idea why it was made though...

[Mike Nuzzo]

Homogenous:

a : to blend (diverse elements) into a uniform mixture
2 a : to reduce to small particles of uniform size and distribute evenly usually in a liquid
b : to reduce the particles of so that they are uniformly small and evenly distributed; specifically : to break up the fat globules of (milk) into very fine particles

The one tee looks mostly like it was just mowed out and not built, the other was obviously built.
A problem with square tees is that eventually you will need to build them (look man made) vs. just mowing out some flat spots

[Brian_Ewen]

I assumed they were photoshopped.

Twice a month, heading to my work, I fly over the site, and can confirm that the photos are not photshopped.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

In your estimation, how long before sodded greens putt true and consistant.

I know of sodded greens that took years, even with TLC, before they were true and consistant.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick,

I think it will take at least six months, which is the time it takes to get a good putting surface from seed.  So, to me, it's way more costly and it doesn't speed up the process much at all.

I also have witnessed several places where they had a problem putting sod [which is seldom grown on sand] on top of new sand-based greens, because the heavier soil layer in the sod can form a layer on top of the sand and impede root growth.  Not worth the hassle, to me.

[Alister Matheson]

Troops,
          It is possible they have looked at the last couple of winters here in the north east of Scotland and decided seeding their greens was risky especially in the first winter when the density is not there to protect the crown of the plant .

Snow laying for weeks on end savage cold easterly burning winds ,slow thaws, Hard frosts then rain then the rain freezing layer upon layer .ITS A TOUGH LIFE BEING A GREENKEEPER LOL.

The past two winters a lot of old established golf clubs with greens over 100 years old from all over Scotland have experienced winter kill/damage in one form or another.

Seeding Greens is imo by far the best way to go if TIME and budget allow .

As Tom D says with bought in sod the soil it is grown on is usually heavier creating probs down the line ,but the biggest problem is the thatch you are recieving ! turf growers profits dictate that they want to give you the thinnest turf possible to save haulage costs ect,to do this they do not box off clippings regularly which lets the thatch build up if not the turf would fall to bits being cut so thin.
I have experience of having to core out thatch in bought in turf over the years.In the end theres not much of the original sod left its mostly what i have overseeded after coring !
In a dream world if you had a money no object project  with no time deadlines you would seed everything and allow for the extra time 2 or 3 growing seasons it might take for the grow in depending on weather .Bought in turf especially for greens looks great instantly but quite often there are problems down the line.
Cheers Alister

[Adam Lawrence]

I'm pretty sure the turf has come from Tillers in Lincolnshire, and I know they offer greens turf grown on USGA rootzone

[Niall C]

I assumed they were photoshopped.

Twice a month, heading to my work, I fly over the site, and can confirm that the photos are not photshopped.

Ian/Brian,

Channel 4 News did a story on the course last night and from the pictures from the course, the colour of the grass looked very vivid indeed. I assume that they are feeding and watering fairly regularly to get it established ?

In typical British press fashion, they are now beginning to give the Trump Organisation a hard time where before they didn't ask a lot of the obvious questions they should. For instance I read a story the other day about supposed delays in the building of the clubhouse and the rest of the development. The gist of the story being that promises were made etc.

Brian,

From your flights over the site, is most fo the course at a similar stage or are these couple of holes well ahead ? Also, is their any truth that Trump is attempting to shut down the airport because of flights overhead spoiling the ambience of the course ? (that last comment was a joke BTW)

Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

Nial
From my view above, I think all holes are shaped but not all the greens and tees are as far on as these in the photos.

10 days away from flying over it again  , but will try and give an update then.

Wish I could take a camera on board with me, but you know what oil companies are like !

[Robin_Hiseman]

My take on the reason to turf the greens is for the preservation of surface levels.  Having seen all my greens at Dornoch Struie blown to oblivion in one afternoon, I can understand why they would want to have the greens nice and cozy under a layer of turf ASAP. 

[Neil_Crafter]

nice and cozy under a layer of turf

Nice imagery Robin!

[Niall C]

Trump Latest - the Donald has arrived for a visit and has said the first ball will be struck this time next year. Does that sound doable ?

Niall

[Neil_Crafter]

Niall
if they are turfing holes now they must be fairly well advanced. This time next year seems possible, depends on the weather I suppose. If you guys have another really cold winter then that may set things back.

[Tom_Doak]

It's certainly possible to be playing next summer, if they get all the fairways planted in the next 6-8 weeks.  Otherwise, it's going to be pretty scruffy next June.  It's impossible to push fescue to mature, especially in the spring in the cool Scottish climate, so the grass will need to be well established this fall if they want good conditions next June.

[Brian_Ewen]

The 14th yesterday :

[Jim Nugent]

Brian, you're apparently spending some time on the course.  What do you think of what you see? 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Look - They've mown the green sod and put a pin in just for Mr.Trump's visit...

I wonder if the 14th will end up on the "great holes with one bunker or less" thread.... The strategy looks like it might work quite well from that tee shot photo...

[Alex Miller]

These photos are pleseantly surprising. I don't know how the course will be maintained, but it appears to be a links course, something I was afraid Trump would be unable to allow to happen.

RE Tees: In one of the golf channel's episodes where they follow trump to scotland, he tells hawtree he likes sticking tees into the sides and at the bases of dunes, so maybe we're not giving the hairpiece enough credit (and I'm one of his biggest detractors thanks to Trump LA)...

[Niall C]

Ally

Assuming that Donald is standing on the correct tee, then that is going to be a bugger of a drive, up there in the clouds trying to land a ball on a fairway well below when there is likely to be a good going breeze going. As you know, I'm not one to complain about what others perceive as narrowness, but playing from what looks like an extremely elevated tee on that windy a site is bound to accetuate any error tenfold. Are their more holes like this ?

I always thought that one of the big challenges with a dramatic dunescape like this was to produce a routing that didn't simply feel like you were playing through a valley all the time. Ally, I think I'm right in saying that you have had the tour, how have they dealt with this or it not a concern ?

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

Are there any pics of the water features that will be on the course?  Other than the sea.. 

[David_Tepper]

Link to press release on the Trump website from April regarding laying of sod on the tees:

http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=302662&ssid=188183&vnf=1

The press release mentions the grasses they are using.

[Brian_Ewen]

Assuming that Donald is standing on the correct tee, then that is going to be a bugger of a drive, up there in the clouds trying to land a ball on a fairway well below when there is likely to be a good going breeze going. As you know, I'm not one to complain about what others perceive as narrowness, but playing from what looks like an extremely elevated tee on that windy a site is bound to accetuate any error tenfold. Are their more holes like this ?

Niall
I wouldnt think it will be much different from some of the front nine holes at Royal Aberdeen, with the prevailing wind in your back the majority of the time.

The biggest problem will probably be climbing up to the tee 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Assuming that Donald is standing on the correct tee, then that is going to be a bugger of a drive, up there in the clouds trying to land a ball on a fairway well below when there is likely to be a good going breeze going. As you know, I'm not one to complain about what others perceive as narrowness, but playing from what looks like an extremely elevated tee on that windy a site is bound to accetuate any error tenfold. Are their more holes like this ?

Niall
I wouldnt think it will be much different from some of the front nine holes at Royal Aberdeen, with the prevailing wind in your back the majority of the time.

The biggest problem will probably be climbing up to the tee  

The second and third back tees at 14 are effectively on the same elevation as the green at 13... Martin Hawtree and Caspar Grauballe spent a lot of time minimising green to tee walks both in distance and elevation change, especially for the more regular tees... Many of the very back tees are perched high but will you be playing it at 7,700 yards?....

14 fairway is wide enough Niall, even playing from a height...

Your worry about playing solely through valleys echoed my own... Although there are plenty of holes like this (there has to be because of the scale of the dunes), I was pleasantly surprised that there was good variety in the way the dunes were used, especially on the back nine...

Incidentally, you get many more photos here:
http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=308648&ssid=196900&vnf=1