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Joe Bausch

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Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2008, 08:21:20 PM »
Joe Bausch,

I don't want to dismiss your effort to capture a few pictures of the golf course for us to look at.  Very thoughtful of you.

Thanks for the kind words Tom. 

I am REALLY looking forward to tomorrow's course!  I think the 'compare and contrast' game could be fun and illuminating.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Anthony Gray

Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2008, 09:08:46 PM »



       In the photo of 16 I don't like the rough front left of the green. It is a downhill shot that should allow the player to bounce it on the green. What do you think?

                   Anthony


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2008, 09:13:05 PM »

       In the photo of 16 I don't like the rough front left of the green. It is a downhill shot that should allow the player to bounce it on the green. What do you think?

                   Anthony

It is a drivable par 4, so I have no problem having rough there.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Carl Rogers

Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2008, 09:15:20 PM »
I was surprised by the number of mis-read putts.

..always hard to perceive contour on the tube.

Anthony Gray

Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2008, 09:26:06 PM »

       In the photo of 16 I don't like the rough front left of the green. It is a downhill shot that should allow the player to bounce it on the green. What do you think?

                   Anthony

It is a drivable par 4, so I have no problem having rough there.


  If it is drivable then why stop the ball from reaching the green?


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2008, 09:30:59 PM »

       In the photo of 16 I don't like the rough front left of the green. It is a downhill shot that should allow the player to bounce it on the green. What do you think?

                   Anthony

It is a drivable par 4, so I have no problem having rough there.

  If it is drivable then why stop the ball from reaching the green?


Carry the ball there like Scott did, or work a drive along the land through the narrow opening.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2008, 09:34:02 PM »
Joe,
Very cool
Thank you
If I had know you'd post these I wouldn't have needed to watch.
I haven't watched golf outside the majors all year.

I heard Stevie say that the 15th (par 5) rewarded playing away from the cliff - and it appeared to do so.
Sounds like Torrey Pines.
I was unimpressed with the course too.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Anthony Gray

Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2008, 09:34:57 PM »

       In the photo of 16 I don't like the rough front left of the green. It is a downhill shot that should allow the player to bounce it on the green. What do you think?

                   Anthony

It is a drivable par 4, so I have no problem having rough there.

  If it is drivable then why stop the ball from reaching the green?


Carry the ball there like Scott did, or work a drive along the land through the narrow opening.


  Joe not many of us have that ability.


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2008, 09:37:30 PM »

       In the photo of 16 I don't like the rough front left of the green. It is a downhill shot that should allow the player to bounce it on the green. What do you think?

                   Anthony

It is a drivable par 4, so I have no problem having rough there.

  If it is drivable then why stop the ball from reaching the green?


Carry the ball there like Scott did, or work a drive along the land through the narrow opening.


  Joe not many of us have that ability.


Since when is driving a par 4 supposed to easy Anthony?   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Anthony Gray

Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2008, 09:44:25 PM »

       In the photo of 16 I don't like the rough front left of the green. It is a downhill shot that should allow the player to bounce it on the green. What do you think?

                   Anthony

It is a drivable par 4, so I have no problem having rough there.

  If it is drivable then why stop the ball from reaching the green?


Carry the ball there like Scott did, or work a drive along the land through the narrow opening.


  Joe not many of us have that ability.


Since when is driving a par 4 supposed to easy Anthony?   ;D

   Exactly. Death awaits a long secound shot so why take away the short roll up shot.


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2008, 10:02:58 PM »

       In the photo of 16 I don't like the rough front left of the green. It is a downhill shot that should allow the player to bounce it on the green. What do you think?

                   Anthony

It is a drivable par 4, so I have no problem having rough there.

  If it is drivable then why stop the ball from reaching the green?


Carry the ball there like Scott did, or work a drive along the land through the narrow opening.


  Joe not many of us have that ability.


Since when is driving a par 4 supposed to easy Anthony?   ;D

   Exactly. Death awaits a long secound shot so why take away the short roll up shot.


I give up Anthony.  You're right.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2008, 10:13:31 PM »

Are those tees in the middle of the fairway in the middle of the picture of the Cape Kidnappers aerial?



Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Matt_Ward

Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2008, 11:41:09 PM »
Wind direction and velocity have a lot to do with the way any course can play. Brent S mentioned the savage nature of the way the wind blew I guess the day before the actual event.

Like I said before, I'd like to know if the wind that helped shots on the final few holes comes from that direction in a prevailing manner during the spring months in NZ and at Kauri Cliffs. What I saw from much of the course -- again I emphasize I have NEVER been to NZ or to the course in question and that my comments are nothing more than deep left field seat analysis -- is a series of postcard views but little in terms of unique design that would elevate the course to the highest of high levels.

No doubt the nature of how the course played the day of the competition has a big time impact on my assessment here. Be curious to hear from those who have played it and if the design details are there or is the layout essentially the Old Head (Ireland) of New Zealand.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2008, 12:22:39 AM »
Mike N:

That's the practice range in the middle of the photo of Cape Kidnappers, and target greens within the practice fairway that you were looking at.

Joe / Anthony:

I didn't get up to Kauri Cliffs for the first round of the event, but I think the mowing line you are discussing on #16 was changed for the event to give those guys more trouble in trying to drive the green.  I don't remember it looking like that a few years ago.


I hope everyone gets to watch Cape Kidnappers tomorrow.  I'll be on a plane -- what else is new.

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2008, 01:36:00 AM »
A few thoughts about Kauri. Played it in Dec of '04. The wind was howling on my 2 plays. Basically, hard right to left off the 1st tee. The front side is very exposed to the wind, 10-13 are rather protected, and then you have to strap it on against the wind the rest of the way. 14-17 were hard right to left and 18 was dead into the wind coming home. It really put a premium on striking the ball solidly. There are some first rate holes there - 4 is a terrific gambling par 5.  5 is a tough forced carry par 3. 7 is a reminder of 16 at Cypress and the view is equally as pretty. 8 is a gorgeous uphill par 5 that is more about the view than the shot values, although I did enjoy it a lot. Of the valley holes I only responded to 13 which requires a well struck and placed drive and then a mid to long iron approach that if poorly struck from a hanging lie ends up in trouble. The stretch from 14 -17 while having similar dynamics in terms of trouble left and downhill right to left shaping feels like you are playing very different holes, and they are all very, very good. As to John Kirk's note about bail out right, the wind is pretty fierce accross the hole so any shot not ripped at the right side ends up in trouble on the left. There wasn't really a bail-out scenario in that wind, you really had to golf your ball to stay out of the cliffs left. 18 has a very good final tee shot with a big forced carry with the ideal line carrying the left bunker, but that is a brutal line into the big wind. I remember the greens as being perfectly conditioned, with appropriate challenges for putting and chipping, but they were not in the same design class as Kidnappers which were World Class.

On a whole, this is a magnificent place to play golf. Very challenging, extremely beautiful(only CPC and Augusta surpass it in that category IMO), and one of the best hotel/lodge experiences in the whole world. The Robertsons are remarkable hosts who take personal care of all of their guests. They made sure to say hello to everyone at drinks before dinner in the 1 big dining room. They invited all the guests to a picnic down on Pink Beach which was stunning as there was no visible sand, just micro sized sea-shells, which look pink. Never seen anything like that. They suggested that we stay a day longer at KC as the wind was too strong down at CK for golf or for landing in Napier, so they arranged for everything and then told my wife and I to be downstairs in an hour as there were some people who were going to look at the Kauri trees and they said we had to go see them. Well, we got into a surburban for what we thought was a drive to the trees, but it was actually a short ride over to their helicopter for a flight to a resort over on 90 Mile Beach where we landed on the grass next to the water, walked thru the hotel and jumped in a van for the 15 minute drive to the Kauri trees. Tane Mahuta was indeed a sight to see. Kind of NZ's equivalent of the Redwoods in the US.

One last thought, we met a great variety of people from all over the world there and not all were golfers. We met a couple from Sydney who were not golfers that just came for a weekend because they had heard KC was a great Lodge experience. We then hooked up with them when we got to Sydney a couple of weeks later and they remain good friends whom we see each year. Kauri Cliffs is truly a magical kind of place with a definate Top 100 in the world golf course. Don't miss it if you get the chance.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2008, 01:56:16 AM »
Michael,

Thank you for sharing your experiences at KC.

Based on the telecast I had the same thoughts as John and Matt in regards to repetition of strategy and a lack of creativity in design. There was no doubt that the scenery was incredible, especially on the stretch run, but it seemed like the pros were making it too easy. From what you have said, it is a bit unfortunate we were not able to see more of the front nine as it sounds very interesting. As always, playing a course is infinitely more valuable than seeing it on tv.

What is the best time of year to visit KC/CK? They talked about the weather so much in the forecast it made me wonder if there was even an ideal window.

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2008, 02:08:33 AM »
A few thoughts on things to look for at Cape Kidnappers tomorrow. Great set of par 3s and a great set of par 5s. Actually the par 4s don't suck either. :) The 6th hole is an all world par 3, especially if it's blowing. Must hit solidly struck golf shots to handle the wind out there. If you miss it at all on 6 you could be looking at triple. 7 is a very underated hole that I loved. A great tee shot that if you let it out and drive it all the way down the hill, you can be rewarded with a short club, but you won't have a very good look at the now elevated green, whereas if you lay back up the hill you will have a lot more club for the approach, but a much better look at the green. 14 is one of my favorite greens that Tom has designed. It is a Road Hole green, but on a par 4 that is driveable. I can't wait to see how these guys approach it. So many different ways to play the hole that change violently based on where the pin is that day. 15 is I think the hardest hole I have ever played. I played for 2 days in a 40mph L-R cross wind, but this hole just says come and get me. 600 yards straight away with cliff left and gully right all the way to the green, which has cliff left and behind the green. The days I played, you had to aim your tee shot left over the cliff just to keep the ball in the right hand side of the fairway. The 3 men in our foursome made no less than 8. The woman we played with made a very nice 5, although she should have as she owns the place.  I absolutely loved this hole. 16 is great too. A gorgeous tee out on the Widow's Walk at the edge of the cliff to a very reachable in two par 5. 17 is a beast into the wind, and I'm curious to see where these guys drive it in tame conditions. It was a ripped drive to the right portion of the lower fairway followed by a 5 iron to the green for me. 18's punchbowl green is a fantastic piece of shaping.

One big bummer today, the Kauri Cliffs telecast was pre-empted in Los Angeles by the local station for coverage of all the fires in SoCal. Hope that doesn't happen again tomorrow for all sorts of reasons.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 02:13:42 AM by Michael Robin »

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2008, 02:48:21 AM »
Rob -

Re the stretch run, I had to rip my driver each time to keep it in play(a good challenge), I had a short iron approach into the par 5 for my 3rd, the par 3 was a long iron, I drove the ball within 60 yards of the 16th and had a diabolical pitch that was straight downwind, I hit 3 iron into 17 after a well struck drive, all those shots played off of downhill tricky lies. Each hole felt like a very different challenge and while I agree it would seem like there is a redundancy there, I would not have wanted to miss those views for anything. You are basically playing down the top of a ridge thru those holes, so I don't think there was much choice in terms of an alternate routing if you wanted to take advantage of the cliffs and the views. There is not much usable land for golf right of those holes until you get back to 18.

Re the best time of year to be there, I was there in late November/early December and the temp was about 65 degrees, but the wind was howling both at KC and at CK. I think those courses are definitely best played in windy conditions.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 02:53:04 AM by Michael Robin »

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2008, 06:24:09 AM »
Michael, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the Kauri Cliffs Lodge.  We had a group of 12 stay up there the first year they openend and we were all treated like kings.  Played 18 in the morning and then sat down for a great lunch.  The  pro asked how the course played and as we played the mid tees there were one or two of the group that wanted to bite off the back tees.  As a compromise he instructed his staff to strengthen the mid tees and also changed over all the hole placements while we enjoyed our gourmet lunch.  Can you think of any other course in the world that would do that?

As for the course itself I most admire the inland holes at the start of the back nine.  Due to the nature of the property with the Lodge perched high the course has to delve down and the only way back up is to have both 9 and 18 come up steeply toward the clubhouse.

As for Cape Kidnappers, Mr. Robertson must be a happy man that the weather gods presented an absolutley perfect day for his feature presentation.  I have played more than a dozen rounds at CK and only one other day mached this day for it's perfection.  The wind can howl in NZ but was a simple zephyr on the day.

Great to see four outstanding touring professionals play this great course.  Knowing the course I was able to position myself at every hole where they would hit their approach shots and was a joy to see up close.  Been to many a tour event in the States and getting around them is a joke - you are forever just chasing the crowd.

The great par 3 sixth hole was interesting.  Plays about 220 yards across a massive ravine with death to the left.  I tend to play a draw (if not a roping hook!) and I figured these guys would do the same.  Just play a draw at the bunker out on the right and feed the ball into the protected left pin.  But each and every one of em hit a fade starting right at the pin and ending up short and right.  The one with the best shot ended  up with a 3-putt bogey!  Still a bit confused as to why they took this approach, then again I am a chopper and they are touring pros!

Shot of the day for me was B. Snedeker's 3rd on the all world 15th.  He pulled his drive and was forced to hack a short club out down the fairway.  He was left with about 260 yards into the building sea breeze and a target that must have looked like a pinhole.  Big balls to this boy as he was tied for the lead and he executed a perfect shot by going for it.

Hope you all enjoy the broadcast.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2008, 10:27:39 AM »
Thanks Michael R. and Scott C. for the detailed descriptions.

The green surrounds on eight consecutive holes, #10 through #17, are lower left of the green and higher right of the green.  Especially if the wind blows in a single direction through this stretch, I am suggesting that this course characteristic calls for a repetitive approach shot strategy.  However, a windy out-and-back linksland course would generally share this characteristic.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 10:36:13 AM by John M. Kirk »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2008, 11:00:11 AM »
Mike Benham
"Cinnebar Hills without the ocean."  This made my morning.

Wow, the sharpness of the pictures, thank you, and please plan on posting pictures of Cape Kidnappers.
In L.A. we will probably not have the telecast again as there are even more fires today.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Matt OBrien

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2008, 11:10:24 AM »
I was surprised by the number of mis-read putts.

..always hard to perceive contour on the tube.

Carl,
Steve commented on the putting and he said that the greens are very difficult to read and that the players didnt have any time for practice there. Not trying to make excuses for them vut im sure its tough to play a course for the first time and hit every putt

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2008, 01:59:48 PM »
Anyone know if these are scheduled to show in markets such as L.A. where they were preempted (at least on Saturday)?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2008, 02:03:00 PM »
Says its supposed to come on at 2 today here in Utah. I think yesterday it just had some conflicts with college FB or something.

Looking forward to watching today and even cancelled my tee time at the local 9 holer to stay home.  ;D

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kiwi Challenge- Kauri Cliffs
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2008, 02:58:04 PM »
Wow, previously I had thought that I couldn't tell all that much difference in watching regular analog TV and HD, other than what I thought was marginally better detail.  I have an older projection large analog TV that still works fine, so I only have a 22inch HD in another room.  I never can tell that much dif watching that one or switching from analog to HD.  But those photos are impressive, Joe.  Thanks for sharing them.  I missed yesterday's KC but I won't miss CK today.  ;D

Sorry you LA folks are having this pesky little inferno cutting into the golf viewing.   :'( 

I reckon more folks will be booking trips to NZ after seeing this taste of paradise.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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