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Joe Bausch

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Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« on: November 14, 2008, 04:48:53 PM »
You can perhaps judge for yourself from these three newspaper articles from The Evening Bulletin:

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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sean_Tully

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2008, 05:11:35 PM »
Joe

Thanks or finding this bit of information it has been on our list of things we were trying to figure out some more info on.  Please keep us informed on any other further finds. I will read them over the weekend and get back to you.

Tully

Mike_Cirba

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2008, 07:30:25 PM »
Joe,

These are awesome, awesome finds.

It makes me sad that the course has been altered so over the years due to the roadway going through it, though.

Still and all, nice that some of the Good Doctor's and Maxwell's work still exists in the neighborhood. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 07:32:30 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2008, 07:41:08 PM »
Also, at least the Good Doctor was observant enough to note that Merion was "a remarkable bit of work on land offering little inspiration."

It has always astounded me that CB Mac, HJ Whigham, and HH Barker found a narrow, L-shaped, clay-based, small-acreaged unremarkable piece of regular ole PA farmland such a ideal site for golf.   ::)    I mean for crying out loud, on the original land you couldn't built a north/south hole below Ardmore Ave. without crossing the street, nor an east/west hole above Ardmore Avenue.   With the proposed real-estate development, they should also have assumed that the intersecting Ardmore Ave. roadway would grow much busier and more congested over time.

Yet, they proclaimed the land as somehow special, and worthy of a great course, as if they had stepped onto the sandy Hempstead Plain, or the Oregon dunes.   ::) ???

Remarkable...and one of the great mysteries of golf history we'll likely never understand.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 10:54:30 PM by MikeCirba »

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2008, 02:32:48 AM »
Joe
Many thanks for hunting down these clippings on Melrose, Maxwell and Mackenzie.
Chris Clouser has a section on Melrose in his Maxwell book.

It is noted that Mackenzie visited Merion in March 1927, as well as Pine Valley, we can add this to the Timeline. Perhaps he met the Wilsons when he visited Merion - he lunched with Wilson the following year in late January 1928 on his way to California. It seems Mackenzie remarked on the lack of inspiration in the Merion site (Hope this doesn't turn into Merion thread 2,763).

What I find of interest in the March 22 1927 article was the reference to what Mackenzie would change on the Melrose course - he had approved the fairway/hole routings but would "change materially the grading, the type of bunkers and the construction of greens". So pretty much everything else then! Chris C suggests that Mackenzie's work "was limited to some bunker placement, contrary to many other claims", but this March 1927 article would suggest that Mackenzie's contribution may well have been quite a bit more significant that Chris concludes.

Joe, do you think the establishment of Melrose would have featured in other Philly newspapers of the time? I can't imagine only one covered it. It will be most interesting if other articles can be found that corroborate the extent of Mackenzie's involvement indicated by the Evening Bulletin.

The other thing I have to wonder is whether Maxwell approached Mackenzie willingly to become involved in this project, or whether he was "encouraged" by a client who had heard that Mackenzie was in America and, as the March 22 1927 article states, "was sought in an effort to obtain the best for the new links". Doak Scott Haddock, as does Chris C, suggest that Maxwell arranged for Mackenzie to be brought on as a paid consultant.

On p 103 of Doak Scott Haddock, they reprint an article which was presumably from a local Philly newspaper but (annoyingly) does not give a date or a source. It was written by a Ted Hoyt. Joe, does that name ring a bell as a writer for a particular paper? We would really like to find this article again so we can have a date for it, as it places Mackenzie in Philly "yesterday" whenever that was! Probably around the date of the Evening Bulletin article, March 1927.

Chris C included a quote that the Melrose course was said to "resemble more the famous Pine Valley than any other Philadelphia course." This apparently came from the DSH book according to Chris' endnotes, but I can't seem to find where in DSH it is. Presumably it is a quote contemporary with the establishment of the Melrose course. Are there any early photos of Melrose that might show us this character?

Keep going Joe!!

Joe Bausch

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2008, 03:29:47 AM »
Neil, there almost certainly will be coverage of Melrose's opening in other Philly papers.  And I do know which paper Ted Hoyt wrote for (the Evening Public Ledger).

There are a couple of low res photos on the Hagley museum web page from Melrose in May and August of 1927:






@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2008, 10:10:01 AM »
Neil and Joe:

The Mackenzie/Maxwell connection and certainly the Mackenzie/Maxwell connection in Philadelphia seems to be a pretty sketchy one at this point but by that I sure don't mean it isn't a fascinating one and a very interesting one to research further and deeper.

In my opinion, Maxwell's connection to Philadelphia architecture is just as interesting and probably more so than the Mackenzie/Maxwell connection at Melrose GC.

It seems that Maxwell's initial connection and design in Philadelephia was the NLE Pennsylvania GC in Llanerch, a course that did not last very long as its club moved to Malvern to what is now Chester Valley GC (which Maxwell supposedly had a good deal to do with too). On neither of those projects did Maxwell partner with Mackenzie, though----at least I don't believe he did.

But back to the question of how Oklahoman Maxwell established the architectural connection he did in the general Philaledphia area which in the end was as impressive for his redesign work in this area as for new construction.

It is pure speculation on my part at this point, but something tells me Maxwell was introduced to Philadelphia by the extremely powerful railroad contingent in this town. That contingent was always deeply entrenched in MCC (basically Merion) through the likes of Morgan and Drexel financing companies and the men from Merion who were partners of those companies or the basic investors in them as they basically controlled the financing of a number of American railroads most certainly including The Pennsylvania RR and the powerful Reading RR.

But the key may be how those RR magnates and their financial RR interests may've gone much farther and wider around the country and basically national. I'm talking about men seminal to the Merion move to Ardmore such as Horatio Gates Lloyd and Rodman Griscom and a number of others at MCC who were really powerful with American RR financing and on the boards of numerous American RRs.

The key player just may be a man who has been little heard of on these threads by the name of T. DeWitt Cuyler. He was basically the most powerful man in the teens and early 1920s in the American RR system. He was the chairman of what was known as the Association of American RR Executives and it seems his mission was to attempt to take the American RRs back toward privatization and nationally.

I belive he died in something like 1922 but essentially this RR structure was set and its influence could be felt through some of these clubs and projects, certainly MCC's and seemingly Maxwell's first project in Philadelphia----eg The Pennsylvania GC, a club that was seemingly built or owned by the Pennsylvania RR.

T. DeWitt Cuyler, by the way, was also MCC's lawyer in 1910 and 1911 and was the one who essentially set up its complex financial structure giving Horatio Gates Lloyd total control over the land that would be bought from the real estate developers and turned into Merion East golf course and club in 1911 through the vehicle of the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association that owned the land and leased in back to MCC.

For about eight months from Dec 1910 until July 1911 Horatio Gates Lloyd (and his wife) would own all of what became Merion Ardmore. The reason for that is so he could freely alter boundaries between the real estate development (which he controlled) and the golf course plans.

This is why that committee engineer, Richard Francis, went to see him in the middle of the night to fix the problem of the routing on #15 and #16.

The whole thing was preconceived and apparently by both Lloyd and Cuyler in late 1910 (at which point the MCC president signed off on it). The fact that they were hugely powerful with American RRs might be a connection to Maxwell, as Cuyler was on more than half the boards of the entire American RR system and traveled the nation in that vein. Being a golfer perhaps he is the one who ran across Maxwell in his early days in Oklahoma as he knew and dealt with some pretty poweful people out there who were probably in the RR business or using them massively in their related businesses such as oil and even salt.

If that's how Maxwell first was introduced to Philadelphia golf and architecture it makes a lot of sense because those men who were so powerful in the American RR system were massively well connected through the prominent clubs of that time such as PCC, MCC, PVGC etc, etc.

And that was just Philadelphia. Maxwell seemed to be commensurately well connected architecturally in and around New York and particularly Long Island. That could be explained by his friendship with J.P. Morgan II, a man whose company was the primary financier of this entire American RR system through Philadelaphia and around the country---eg read the fascinating financing and business wars of Morgan against other competing business interests over the northern North American line knowns as the Northern Pacific RR.

This remarkable group of men from these various cities all seemed to know each other well and so many of them and their close friends were the founders and principles behind so many of these famous early golf clubs including NGLA, MCC, Maidstone, Shinnecock, The Creek, The Links, Lido, etc, etc.

The likes of Morgan (both father and son) were certainly rich but more than that they were so powerful throught the interconnected world of the American RRs, American shipping, in some cases the incipient American aviation industry (Shinnecock's Juan Tripp) and also some of the type flight golf courses of that early time.

Apparently most all of them really liked the likes of Perry Maxwell and also William Flynn!

And not just that but I don't think any of us can deny that in a business context the burgeoning American RR system and the burgeoning golf industry basically went hand in hand throughout for obvious reasons. Together they were a total "win/win" deal, one for the other!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 10:31:30 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2008, 10:50:17 AM »
Neil:

I'll post Mackenzie's letter to Maxwell about Melrose and we should all be able to see that even from his own letter it really doesn't look like Mackenzie had that much to do with that project.

"My dear Maxwell:

When I originally asked you to come into partnership with me, I did so because I thought your work more closely harmonized with nature than any other American Golf Course Architect. The DESIGN (my caps) and construction of the Melrose Golf Course has confirmed my previous impression.

I feel that I cannot leave America without expressing my admiration for the excellence of your work and the extremely low cost compared with the results obtained. As I stated to you verbally, the work is so good you may not get the credit you deserve.

Few if any golfers will realize that Melrose has been constructed by the hand of man and not by nature. This is the greatest tribute that can be paid to the work of a Golf Course Architect.

Yours very sincerely.
Alister Mackenzie"
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 10:52:44 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2008, 10:55:13 AM »
Neil:

By the way, in your post above you said you thought Mackenzie may've lunched with the Wilsons of Merion during his Philadelphia visit in 1927. Maybe he lunched with Alan Wilson but he couldn't have lunched with Hugh Wilson because he'd been in the ground for over two years at that point.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2008, 01:36:08 PM »
Regarding my post #6 and my speculation of how Perry Maxwell may've come to be introduced to those around Philadelphia and to work there----no sooner do I speculate on something like that than someone weighs in with some really good research material and proves my speculation wrong.

In this case it was The Creek Club's excellent researching historian George Holland! Did you all get that---eg GEORGE HOLLAND, golf architecctural RESEARCHER SUPREME!!!   ;)

It seem that Maxwell's introduction to the eastern powers in golf and architecture and agronomy was all about his early inquiries about grass and grasses for golf, particularly his inquiries on early Bermuda grass!!! He was trying to figure out if it was possible to create grass greens in his territory of Oklahoma.

And what was the material GEORGE HOLLAND produced? It was a speech Maxwell gave in 1924 in which he talked about getting in touch with the US Dept of Agriculture and also USGA presidenet Robert Watson around 1915, perhaps 4-5 years before Maxwell got into golf course architecture at all.

Bob Harris

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2008, 02:39:10 PM »
Neil:

I'll post Mackenzie's letter to Maxwell about Melrose and we should all be able to see that even from his own letter it really doesn't look like Mackenzie had that much to do with that project.

"My dear Maxwell:

When I originally asked you to come into partnership with me, I did so because I thought your work more closely harmonized with nature than any other American Golf Course Architect. The DESIGN (my caps) and construction of the Melrose Golf Course has confirmed my previous impression.

I feel that I cannot leave America without expressing my admiration for the excellence of your work and the extremely low cost compared with the results obtained. As I stated to you verbally, the work is so good you may not get the credit you deserve.

Few if any golfers will realize that Melrose has been constructed by the hand of man and not by nature. This is the greatest tribute that can be paid to the work of a Golf Course Architect.

Yours very sincerely.
Alister Mackenzie"

I was member of Melrose in the 1980s and talked at length with the club's historian, Dr. Adelman.  The club always referred to itself as a "Maxwell" design and his drawing of the original course routing was displayed in the Grille Room.  MacKenzie's name was never mentioned in the club history or by any of the members I spoke to.

TEPaul

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2008, 03:06:53 PM »
"I was member of Melrose in the 1980s and talked at length with the club's historian, Dr. Adelman.  The club always referred to itself as a "Maxwell" design and his drawing of the original course routing was displayed in the Grille Room.  MacKenzie's name was never mentioned in the club history or by any of the members I spoke to."

Bob Harris:

I realize that and that's the way I've always looked at Melrose. But you must realize as with a number of clubs here and elsewhere, there are a ton of old magazine and newspaper articles that are beginning to be digitized and put on the INTERNET these days that sometimes call into questions some of the things clubs and even their historians have always assumed. It's not as if most of these clubs have not ever seen some of those articles but in some cases perhaps not in a long, long time.

I'm not saying the old newspaper and magazines articles are always right or that the clubs are always right. What I am saying is in some ways they tend to differ and they really tend to differ when some on here begin to pretty much torture what they say in some attempt to stir up differences in stories between newspaper and magazine articles and what club histories say----and differences which I should remind you may not really exist at all. I think those endless Merion threads were an example of that----eg the questioning of what a couple of old magazine or newspaper articles that Merion and most of us have been aware of for years really meant and that they mean something different than we've always assumed they meant!

I remember going over to look at that Melrose course design map hanging on your grillroom wall about 6-7 years ago (I even distinctly remember where it was hanging) and looking at it carefully. Did you ever look at it carefully enough to see that the design attribution on the bottom right of it says:

MELROSE               COUNTRY              CLUB
    Philadelphia, Elkins Park, Pennsyvlania
                     designed by
           Mackenzie  "w   Maxwell
                   Leeds, England
 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 03:11:19 PM by TEPaul »

Bob Harris

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2008, 03:47:20 PM »

I remember going over to look at that Melrose course design map hanging on your grillroom wall about 6-7 years ago (I even distinctly remember where it was hanging) and looking at it carefully. Did you ever look at it carefully enough to see that the design attribution on the bottom right of it says:

MELROSE               COUNTRY              CLUB
    Philadelphia, Elkins Park, Pennsyvlania
                     designed by
           Mackenzie  "w   Maxwell
                   Leeds, England
 

Tom,

Actually, it was that attribution that sparked my interest in Melrose's history.  We were never able to find anything at the club about Mackenzie. 


FYI, the holes in the upper right hand corner of the first Hagley Museum photo are Ashbourne CC.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 04:16:34 PM by Bob Harris »

TEPaul

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2008, 04:36:53 PM »
"Tom,
Actually, it was that attribution that sparked my interest in Melrose's history.  We were never able to find anything at the club about Mackenzie."

Bob Harris:

And the reason for that may be because he really didn't do that much at Melrose. One can't help notice that MacKenzie in his own personal letter to Maxwell on Melrose congratulated Maxwell on both the design AND construction of the course. It would seem at that point in his career Maxwell was more than capable of a good routing and design plan on his own. Had he not been one could fairly ask why Mackenzie was as impressed with him as he said he was earlier and what Maxwell had accomplished in Oklahoma. Mackenzie actually wrote he thought it (what Maxwell did in Oklahoma) was better than what were then considered to be some of the best courses of the east apparently including NGLA, Lido and GCGC. 

I suppose this begs the question of why Maxwell thought he needed to tap Mackenzie for Melrose or why the club did. One reason for that may've been at that time Maxwell didn't have much of a record in Philadelphia (the only previous one was this Pennsylvania GC).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 04:38:40 PM by TEPaul »

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2008, 05:46:00 PM »
Joe
Thanks for the info on Ted Hoyt's paper. I'd love to be able to find the article and the date that he wrote it. Also appreciate the aerials.

Tom
Personally I have less interest in how and why Maxwell got the work in the first place but I would like to better understand why Maxwell (or his client) brought in Mackenzie. Hence my question in my reply above:

"The other thing I have to wonder is whether Maxwell approached Mackenzie willingly to become involved in this project, or whether he was "encouraged" by a client who had heard that Mackenzie was in America and, as the March 22 1927 article states, "was sought in an effort to obtain the best for the new links". Doak Scott Haddock, as does Chris C, suggest that Maxwell arranged for Mackenzie to be brought on as a paid consultant."

In your last reply you essentially repeated it:

"I suppose this begs the question of why Maxwell thought he needed to tap Mackenzie for Melrose or why the club did. One reason for that may've been at that time Maxwell didn't have much of a record in Philadelphia (the only previous one was this Pennsylvania GC)."

That's exactly what I want to find out if possible, realising that it may never be possible to determine this. By the same argument Mackenzie could not have been too well known in the US in 1926 and would have relied on him selling his "story" about camouflage etc to promote himself as he went.

The letter text from Mackenzie to Maxwell is in Chris C's book, but not the letter itself - Tom, do you have a copy of the letter you could scan?

I find it interesting that the club has said they could not find anything about Mackenzie in their records - contrast this with the local press where there seem to be quite a few articles mentioning Mackenzie in connection with their course.

And I believe the map says "Mackenzie and Maxwell". I will post a scan I have of it a little later.
cheers Neil


Neil_Crafter

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2008, 06:34:46 PM »
Here's the plan of Melrose from Chris' Maxwell book, obtained from the club in the first instance.



Joe Bausch

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2008, 06:39:19 PM »
I've also wondered lately whether someone/somebody at Melrose was just real smart, perhaps they needed more members at the beginning, and they trumped up Mac's contribution to the golf writers since Maxwell was not as well known.

However, in that diagram above, I find it somewhat interesting that MacKenzie's name is listed first.  I sure would have wanted to be listed first if I was Maxwell and Mac really didn't contribute anything really substantial beyond some bunkering!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2008, 07:05:38 PM »
Neil:

It sure looks to me like Maxwell had already been retained by Melrose and then Mackenzie was brought in, probably at the behest of Maxwell. If one looks at that March 22, 1927 artlicle's first paragraph it practically says that.

Why would Maxwell have brought him into Melrose? Well, I don't see that Mackenzie had done much of anything over here at that point but one thing we do know is a couple of years earlier the both of them had apparently become very impressed with one another's ideas and work and may've talked about partnering when the opportunity arose. Don't forget, it looks like Perry met Alister at St Andrews back in 1919 and they apparently got to know one another there. I think Perry had talked to Macdonald too early on and now we know how early Perry was into grass research for golf (1915).

It seems really obvious to me that either Maxwell or Mackenzie very purposefully supplied the writer of that article, J. Ford, with a virtual advertisement of what the philosophy of Mackenzie's camouflage in architecture was and what it looked like on the ground as far as a golfer telling what was made and what wasn't or even what it indicated for golf.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2008, 07:21:38 PM »
I did not post as part of the original newspaper articles one I found from 1939, also from the Evening Bulletin.  The main topic of the article was the sale of the club for $199,000!  But within the article was a line saying the design was started by Maxwell, but finished by MacKenzie.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2008, 09:56:06 PM »
That's a fabulous drawing.   It appears that about 50-60% of the original course still exists..perhaps slightly more in the way of original green sites.

Unfortunately, knowing the property...it appears that a few of the original holes that were lost would have been UBER cool, particularly the z-shaped par five that played to a green that still exists today as a par three hole just below the clubhouse.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2008, 01:29:49 AM »
Tom
My mistake when I said that the Wilsons may have shown Mackenzie over Merion in 1927, forgetting that Hugh was not around then. Mackenzie writes in one of his articles (The Fairway, November 1928) that he lunched with Alan Wilson in January 1928 while he was on his way to California. Wilson suggested Mackenzie should visit Cypress Point while he was out there and I think he was pleased to inform Wilson that he was designing the new course there.

I'm not sure I'm reading the first para of the 22 March article the same as you! It says:

"Dr Allister Mackenzie of Leeds, England, has been retained by the new Melrose Country Club to supervise the design of its course at Lawndale"

Then the second paragraph states:

"The plan for the course had been drawn already by P D Maxwell, an Oklahoma course designer, but the advice of Dr Mackenzie, who is now completing a world tour, was sought in an effort to obtain the best for the new links."

I would have thought that this seems more likely to suggest that the club asked for Mackenzie, rather than Maxwell offering him, but its not conclusive either way.

Joe
Interesting pickup from that 1939 article, I'd be interested to see it if you could post it - thanks. There is a Mackenzie & Maxwell letterhead, with an address of Elkins Park, reproduced in Chris' book. Whenever Mackenzie teamed up with someone, they always went second, eg Mackenzie & Hunter, Mackenzie & Russell, Mackenzie & Egan. The only one he came second to was Harry Colt.

Mike
I liked the look of that par 5 too. Looks like they made good use of the creek.

What I'd like to know is what similarities there could have been between Pine Valley and Melrose when it opened to have prompted the description that I referred to in an earlier post. Anybody have any clues on this? It sounds rather unlikely to me.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2008, 08:45:37 AM »
Gentlemen:

In this one case, I think it's pretty clear what happened.

MacKenzie and Maxwell had met in the UK, and when MacKenzie traveled toward California he stopped in Oklahoma to meet Maxwell and they declared themselves "partners" for work in the East.  Since Maxwell was already working on the plan for Melrose, I'm sure he suggested to the club that Dr. MacKenzie get involved, knowing that he would not be too involved apart from making a p.r. stop or two. 

They might have gotten paid a bit more for this, or it might have just been a way to get free publicity for the new partnership.

TEPaul

Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2008, 08:56:33 AM »
TomD:

In reading C. Clouser's "The Midwest Associate" and these articles that's about what it looks like to me too.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2008, 02:30:11 PM »
Here is that article I mentioned previously from the November 29, 1939 issue of the Evening Bulletin where the sale of Melrose is described:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Melrose CC: how much was the good doctor involved?
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2008, 04:00:32 PM »
Joe
Thanks for the article - I see they have moved Leeds a little east and across the Channel to Belgium! Perhaps Mac liked beer and mussels!

Tom D
I think that is probably the most likely turn of events too, it is just the ambiguous way that March 22 article about Melrose is written that raised the issue for me. I now have a number of articles on Mackenzie and Maxwell at Nichols Hills in Oklahoma City (later to become OCG&CC) which I think are instructive of how they operated together. I'll do a thread on this when I get a moment.

What evidence is there of when Mackenzie and Maxwell's partnership was formulated and then announced?

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