[Tom Huckaby]

Just trying to be a pain in the ass for two friends, Wyatt.  Glad you took it that way.  You likely could belt my change out of the park.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

You know, it's a damn good question too... I ought to try for a less smart-ass answer.

I can't go for walkability; sort of for my smartass reasons above, but also because I've played plenty of courses on which a cart is the best way to play, but are also totally fun.  I do think the BEST courses favor walking... I just can't put that as the #1 value. 

It's a tough call.  But put me down with the greens and green surrounds crowd.  A course can be fantastic in views, shots to be played, angles, all that other stuff... but if the greens suck, it's just not gonna be very great.  I say start with great greens and surrounds and then work from there.

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Shot values.

HA!

Unless you mean the Single Malt variety?

It's not so important what the land looked like before, but after the architect has gotten his/her mitts on it.
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think you are missing the basics - got to have 18 holes exactly, not 17, not 19 unless a bet hole.  Don't forget safety and micro climate to grow grass.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Wyatt

The single most important feature IMHO is Routing including Topography (in that order if we are talking about an identified or chosen site). A slight variation to your list but I believe an important variation. Yet this I believe
must be very closely linked to the Greens.

The rest can then be added as per the brief and location.

[Patrick_Mucci]

ROUTING - MACRO ARCHITECTURE

[Sean_A]

As it is termed on the opening post, the topography/routing is without question the most important aspect of a course.  It the topography and routing are good many of the other elements should exist at some level.  Of course, folks will then ask what is good topography!

Ciao

[Paul Stephenson]

1. Angles.  When you included width with this I was sold.

2. Green complexes.

I think if these two aspects are good, most golf shots will be interesting.

[Kevin Pallier]

Strategy.....even those on P3's 

[paul cowley]

Enjoyment....if the net sum of all the others combined don't equal that, its flawed.

[Mark_Fine]

Quote from Bill Coore:

"The three most important things when it comes to a great golf course are the routing, the green complexes, and the hazards."  Bill goes on to say that, "The hazards are the most important factor on a course, even more so than the greens.  No other element has as much visual impact on the golfer as the hazards of the golf course."

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

I love to see how Bill would define a blind hole, there is no actual visual impact apart from seeing no hole or the hazards awaiting you. Yes, once you have experienced the hole you get an idea of location of the hazards but the mind still play tricks on you and it is rather difficult to locate the hazards unless you play the course on a very regular basic.

So with respect I feel that his comment is not totally justified in the light of the blind holes (which are not yet extinct – Thank God), so should not applicable in this post.

[Sean_A]

Mark

I love to see how Bill would define a blind hole, there is no actual visual impact apart from seeing no hole or the hazards awaiting you. Yes, once you have experienced the hole you get an idea of location of the hazards but the mind still play tricks on you and it is rather difficult to locate the hazards unless you play the course on a very regular basic.

So with respect I feel that his comment is not totally justified in the light of the blind holes (which are not yet extinct – Thank God), so should not applicable in this post.

Melvyb

I too was going to point out how pervasive the concept of hazards are in the current thinking about architecture.  I hope we are on a swing toward a more balanced approach between hazards and (for lack of a better description) natural hazards.

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

Melvyn and Sean,
Bill and I and many others are not hung up on the USGA's definition of hazards.  As far as we are both concerned if you are for example standing on the tee playing the dell hole (a blind hole I might add) at Lahinch, you have a "hazard" in your way    And it is that hazard that defines that great golf hole. 

I was just in Hawaii on The Big Island last week.  Anyone who doesn't think the lava, which is prevalent on almost every golf course, is a hazard is too hung up on definitions.  It is these types of obstacles or "hazardous situations" as they were orignally called, that form the essence of the game.  The formal term of "hazard" didn't even enter into the game until around 1900.
Mark

[Don_Mahaffey]

Grass 

No grass, no golf course.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Don

Sorry Mate, but played on earth courses, in Jos Nigeria with platform Tees made out of termite mounds some 2-3 M high. There is grass but its one blade per every sq.M. – it’s actually a hazard because if you ball lands on a tuft of grass the ball can travel in any direction.  Soil is red and sandy, same colour as the red brick Hamilton Hall at St Andrews, recently shown in another topic.

So can play golf without grass, but I agree I am a lover of grass, because it like watching your ball slow fast on what could be described as shallow red snow.

[Andy Troeger]

Its no wonder we can't agree on ranking golf courses, considering the number of different factors mentioned as important to our enjoyment of the courses themselves 

To just pick one criteria, its about having a good variety of holes. I guess that's the routing. Personally, I'll take a good routing with average greens over great greens on an average routing. I think that's where my views end up differing quite a bit from others on this group.

Of course the qualification--part of finding a good routing is finding good sites for greens, so its likely going to be hard to find a well routed course with really boring greens.

[RJ_Daley]

gravity and physics

[Norbert P]

 All of the above in varying degrees.

 

[Matt_Ward]

For those who have missed the most obvious ingredient --

it starts always with a first rate site. For those who may not have seen my earlier post -- few great courses were ever created on mediocre sites.

Once you have that - the wherewithal of the architect to max out the routing so that all elements of the land are maximized and attributed is central.

The final ingredient -- being able to infuse one's routing with shot values that test all the clubs and require the player to have a high degree of shot control -- working the ball both ways and hitting high and low shots as called upon by the daily conditions.

[J_ Crisham]

For those who have missed the most obvious ingredient --

it starts always with a first rate site. For those who may not have seen my earlier post -- few great courses were ever created on mediocre sites.

Once you have that - the wherewithal of the architect to max out the routing so that all elements of the land are maximized and attributed is central.

The final ingredient -- being able to infuse one's routing with shot values that test all the clubs and require the player to have a high degree of shot control -- working the ball both ways and hitting high and low shots as called upon by the daily conditions.

  Having the money is the most important feature to creating a great course-  Think about it, Whistling Straits and Shadow Creek are two good courses that were built from nothing. You can have great land but an inadequate budget can lead to not only a poor design but poor shaping ,maintenance, drainage system ,etc. Like anything else in life if you have the bucks you stand a hell of a lot better chance of doing something adequately versus cutting corners.   Jack

[Anthony Gray]

   Iagree with Matt and Melvyn it has to be the land.

                         Anthony

[Matt_Ward]

Jack C:

Money can make a big difference and no doubt Wynn and Kohler did supply a king's ransome to handle the needs of Shadow Creek and Whistling Straits respectively. You say they are "good" courses -- I don't disagree with the tagline "good." But the issue I raised was a far different one and it's something you simply overlooked or paid little attention to.

Great courses are more than likely the beneficiary of superior sites. Winged Foot is one of the few truly great courses that is built on a subpar site, in my opinion. The great designers of the past had the wherewithal to pick the best spots for their best achievements because that land was available in a number of instances and the client also had the $$ to make that vision a reality.

Jack, I never said that ALL SUPERIOR LAND sites will result in great courses. What I did say is that it's a rare course built on mediocre or poor properties that turns out to be among the highest of elite layouts.

I stick by what I said -- if you want to see a great course -- start with the land it occupies -- the folks who made them great courses chose those sites because of that element first and foremost. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I  agree with Matt and Melvyn it has to be the land.

Land can make the architectural task easier or more difficult.

It doesn't guarantee the outcome, although, bad land is more difficult to overcome, unless your budget allows for it.

[Kirk Gill]

   Iagree with Matt and Melvyn it has to be the land.

                         Anthony

What am I, chopped liver?


Don't answer that.

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