[Steve_ Shaffer]

As reported at:

http://www.examiner.com/x-1339-Denver-Golf-Examiner~y2008m11d13-Future-PGA-Championship-may-be-played-at-Colorado-Golf-Club-in-Parker

and

www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2008/11/14/ben-and-bill-design-to-get-a-major.html

[John Kavanaugh]

One of the reasons I joined Norwood Hills before I had played the course was because of the coolness that Hogan had won the 48 PGA on its grounds.  It is a sad commentary on my own expenderousity that if Mike Turnesa had beat Hogan in the finals I would not have joined.  That being said...Is it just me, or has the decision to hold PGA's at modern venues diluted an already diluted championship.  In other words, will this give CGC a bump or does it mean no more than when Kemper Lakes hosted the event.

Am I alone in my observation that as far as the PGA is concerned who wins matters as much as where played if the club hopes to gain any lasting substance.  Norwood does love that Hogan Ballroom.

[Scott Sander]

Am I alone in my observation that as far as the PGA is concerned who wins matters as much as where played if the club hopes to gain any lasting substance. 

You're not alone.
From that perspective, I firmly believe that Crooked Stick has only recently started to "recover" from John Daly's win.
Almost from the Sunday pairings you could predict it would be a "one and done" course.  Daly, Lietzke, Gallagher Jr., Knox, and Jay Don Blake seem to be nice chaps, but they are not exactly ready-made for sepia tones and goose-pimply walks down memory lane.

[Scott Sander]

I'm compelled to wonder at how this news (if accurate) is going over among Mr. Vickers and the Castle Pines members.

The USGA, PGA Tour, and now -it seems- the PGA of A have each handed CP some stinging slaps.  Or indifference, which may hurt worse.

The closest Castle Pines may ever get to a major now is overflow parking.

[John Kavanaugh]

Am I alone in my observation that as far as the PGA is concerned who wins matters as much as where played if the club hopes to gain any lasting substance. 

You're not alone.
From that perspective, I firmly believe that Crooked Stick has only recently started to "recover" from John Daly's win.
Almost from the Sunday pairings you could predict it would be a "one and done" course.  Daly, Lietzke, Gallagher Jr., Knox, and Jay Don Blake seem to be nice chaps, but they are not exactly ready-made for sepia tones and goose-pimply walks down memory lane.

I have made the argument before that Crooked Stick suffers from a subliminal "red neck" aura simply because of John Daly being its greatest champion.  When in fact Crooked Stick has a restrained elegance rare to the Hoosier State.  

[Jeff_Mingay]

John,

I look at it differently. I think the PGA Championship is differentiating itself from the other majors by hosting the event at modern courses, such as Whistling Straits, Kiawah, and perhaps Colorado GC in the near future.

This is more interesting -- at least to a spectator interested in golf architecture -- than seeing the PGA played at places like Oakland Hills, Oak Hill, Winged Foot, et al only a few years following a US Open played at the same club.

[Jeff Spittel]

I think the PGA generally tends to "get it right" with regard to venue selection and set-up. There is nothing wrong with adding some modern courses to the mix.

Besides, most of the traditional championship venues for the U.S. Open and PGA have been Reesified.   

[Peter Zarlengo]

I had the pleasure of working at Colorado Golf Club during grow-in the summer before it opened. It is truly a fantastic place with wonderful members and employees.

From my first day on the job, the folks in charge told me that one day the course would host a major championship. Not sure if I believed them at first, but after spending some time there I can see why it is a good fit for championship golf. I went back this past summer and was very impressed with how the course had matured.

I only hope that at 5500 feet above sea level, in 2014, at at only (?) 7600 yards, the course wont be rendered to a fairway wood - wedge job.

[Tom Huckaby]

What's funny is that my first thought upon reading this is "well, the course sure can play long and tough enough to host a major."  It kicked my ass sideways the two rounds I played on it awhile back.

But thinking about it more... Peter is right.  7600 yards at altitude and it will be nothing but wedges for these guys.  I guess the good news is the greens are funky enough such that it's doubtful most wedges will lead to tap-in birdies... and there are enough holes where they may lay-up... but still, if they're looking for a CHALLENGE for the pros, CGC won't hold that in great degree.

It is a beautiful site... and logistics will work... Peter can comment way more on that.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

I also wondered about it being short, though it wouldn't surprise me that they turned par 5 #7 and possibly #16 into par 4's.

[Andy Troeger]

What's funny is that my first thought upon reading this is "well, the course sure can play long and tough enough to host a major."  It kicked my ass sideways the two rounds I played on it awhile back.

But thinking about it more... Peter is right.  7600 yards at altitude and it will be nothing but wedges for these guys.  I guess the good news is the greens are funky enough such that it's doubtful most wedges will lead to tap-in birdies... and there are enough holes where they may lay-up... but still, if they're looking for a CHALLENGE for the pros, CGC won't hold that in great degree.

It is a beautiful site... and logistics will work... Peter can comment way more on that.

TH

It is interesting, the course beat me to a pulp too, but I kind of agree that the pros would likely handle it pretty easily because of the width. Their distance would render that yardage meaningless. The greens are challenging, but not any more so than a lot of other places. I don't know that they would eat it up if the setup was good, but I don't see it being as difficult for the pros as some of the other major sites. Very good course though, I'd be interested to watch a PGA there.

[Tom Huckaby]

I think Scott's right on - both 7 and 16 become par 4s.  16 will remain interesting in terms of which fairway they will choose.... I really liked that hole as a split fairway where neither side was really the obvious choice.

And I think Andy's right also - the greens aren't gonna challenge them that much (though again they were plenty of challenge for me!).

So make it a par 70 and at least the score relative to par won't get crazy.  Say -14 or something wins.   And in the end I too agree it's a very good course and I'd sure be interested to watch a PGA from there.

Another thought... they sure do have a lot of land.. at least some places where tees could get backed up, no?  Perhaps they get this to around 8000 yards?

Scary, but perhaps necessary if they want to see the pros hit something other than fairway wood + wedge....

TH

[Kirk Gill]

Interesting news.

I for one like the notion that the PGA is taking major championships to newer courses. I like the sepia tones as much as the next guy, but wasn't there a time when the grand dames of golf were new? The PGA needs something to set it apart, and this seems as good a method as any.

And as Peter said, from the very beginning it's been a goal of this club to host a major championship. Power to 'em !

[Doug Wright]

Interesting news.

I for one like the notion that the PGA is taking major championships to newer courses. I like the sepia tones as much as the next guy, but wasn't there a time when the grand dames of golf were new? The PGA needs something to set it apart, and this seems as good a method as any.

And as Peter said, from the very beginning it's been a goal of this club to host a major championship. Power to 'em !

Kirk,

Tell 'em the truth--you just like watching a major from your backyard!

Colorado Golf Club is a fine course and will make a decent venue for the PGA. Yes it will play short unless they add new tees to stretch it to 8,000+ yards, which is quite possible.  I think the pros will find the greens challenging enough if they're at a high stimp which they certainly will be. Also, if there is any wind, which is likely there, the course can get nasty pretty quick. The driveable holes (8 and 14) will be interesting.

[Kalen Braley]

To boot, something tells me that those fairways won't be near as wide when the circus rolls into town.  Not expecting bowling-alley 99 Open at Carnoustie conditions, but likely will see some lush thick rough to go along with the pinched in fairways.

I too think its good that the USGA is trying out new locations, especially if some of the more traditional locations are just plain sick and tired of the hassle of staging a major as has been alluded to.

[PThomas]

its a wonderful course...if the news is true, congrats to it and good luck!

[John Kirk]

I've played it.  It's a hard golf course, with deceptive and awkward looking shots.  Very good variety of golf holes: up-down, left-right, and long-short.  It's not one of my favorites, though I'm sure it would grow on me if I played it a few times.  My opinion of the course is muted because I was demoralized by having my ass kicked.  More demanding than fun after one try.

The driving range and practice facilities are set up perfect for entertaining pros and their fans.  All in all, very well conceived for hosting the pros; I believe that was one of the goals when designing the course and facility.  I think it will make a great venue.

[Tom Huckaby]

I've played it.  It's a hard golf course, with deceptive and awkward looking shots.  Very good variety of golf holes: up-down, left-right, and long-short.  It's not one of my favorites, though I'm sure it would grow on me if I played it a few times.  My opinion of the course is muted because I was demoralized by having my ass kicked.  More demanding than fun after one try.

The driving range and practice facilities are set up perfect for entertaining pros and their fans.  All in all, very well conceived for hosting the pros; I believe that was one of the goals when designing the course and facility.  I think it will make a great venue.

All VERY astute, well said John.

I too was demoralized after one round... and it got a LITTLE better after the 2nd... but it seems we all have in common the same feeling of getting our butts kicked.  That is one difficult course for us normal guys.  Interesting also as that is not the usual Coore & Crenshaw MO... but I too was told the goal was to host a major, and if that was the goal, I think C&C achieved their version of what a major championship course might be.  In that respect it is pretty interesting.

My friend Rick (who you know) does enjoy the course, but even he concedes it's pretty damn tough.  But hell his previous club was Bear Creek (nearer to Denver) and that makes CGC look like kids' stuff in terms of raw difficulty.

TH

[Kirk Gill]

Tell 'em the truth--you just like watching a major from your backyard!

Busted !

Still, it's pretty exciting, and I echo Tom's statement that if C&C were looking at this course as a major venue when creating it, it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

That said, if I'm still in my current house come 2014, I'll be hosting a big bbq for y'all.

[Adam Clayman]

As someone who does not get demoralized from having their ass kicked, the course is worthy of study mainly due to the marching orders given to C&C. The club, it's staff and the atmosphere is top notch. And that's with a temporary clubhouse

I found that the best holes were those on the least dramatic land. The low profile nature of the teams motus opperandi is extremely well done on those flatish holes. The dry wash was used to great affect
 save for the one hole I'm not crazy about, the third. It sets up oddly and the shot demands are awkward. The fairway angles & cants to the right and the shot is over to the left to an island-like green.

Feelings of Prairie Dunes and Riviera dominate one's subconscious while traversing the prop.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

Note I didn't say I was demoralized.     I enjoyed the hell out of both my rounds there.  But I empathized with those who did, because I did find it to be one tough, tough golf course.  But it also was damn fun, and every word you state there I concur with also.

I really did like the front-nine stretch and the other "lower" holes... I said to the other guys it reminded me of holes in the UK.   I didn't get a Riviera feel, nor Prairie Dunes (never been there) but I sure did get a greatness feel.

TH

[Adam Clayman]

I too was demoralized after one round... and it got a LITTLE better after the 2nd... but it seems we all have in common the same feeling of getting our butts kicked. 

Tom, I suppose I mis-read you. 

The feeling of Riv. isn't so much what lays on the ground, today, in the Palisades. It was a feeling I had from hearing about the pre-core of army engineers version of the GCT design.

The second, is very similar to the Kansas courses second.

But, we've had our disagreements before on feelings felt while golfing some of these great venues. I almost pulled it out the other day when we were discussing some minutia about something.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dammit!  So I did use that word.  OK, I exaggerated, out of empathy.

 

And we sure have had some disagreements about the feelings one has while playing great venues... dare I mention the F word?  And no you sickos, it's "flow."

But I do think we agree more than we disagree.

As pertains to CGC, those feelings you mention are way over my head... but I did seriously mention to my playing partners that the lower holes down there evoked Ireland, and parts of Scotland - and it was somewhat the look, but more how they played.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

I really liked that hole as a split fairway where neither side was really the obvious choice.

Can somebody name me a split fairway where 98%+ of all the pros didn't pick one side and ignore the other?

I cannot, for the main reason being that pros rarely play courses that have split fairways, but for the secondary reason that yes, for pros particuarly, the choice is nearly always obvious.

But this hole at CGC may be the exception.  We shall see.


TH

[Peter Zarlengo]

I would guess that most pros would favor the right fairway on 16. The real difficulty of that second shot into the green (it seems to me) is the forced right-to-left shot shape it requires and the length of carry, neither of which would be too problematic for the pros.

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