A Fan's Photo Tribute to Kingsley Club - 18th hole commentary now in progress

[John Mayhugh]

For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two?  Both look absolutely incredible. 

That's a really good question.  I might have a slight preference for Ballyneal (say 6-4), but I think Ballyneal is a bit easier than Kingsley and that probably factors into it for someone of my skill level. 

Another interesting comparison would be Crystal Downs & Kingsley.  Crystal Downs gets the nod 6-4 or 7-3, but it's pretty close.  Can you tell I liked Kingsley a lot?

[Wayne Freeman]

I'm with Chuck and Mark on this one.  And Jimmy,  the only thing to ponder is how terrible you feel after you have enjoyed the course to this point and you come to a basically unplayable hole in most cases which can totally ruin your round and your day.   I think the hole should be softened also.  The pro I talked to that day said that with firm greens and the front right pin we had that there was virtually no way to score on that hole.
   If I had 10 rounds in that area,  I'd go with 5 Crystal, 3 Arcadia, and 2 Kingsley and with regard to Sand Hills/Ballyneal/Kingsley..... you'd be better off just staying in the hills area and playing S.H. and Ballyneal 5 and 5.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I think the comments about #9 being unplayable are a little over the top.  The hole rewards a good shot and penalizes a poor shot or a marginal shot to an aggressive target.  No matter where the pin is, a play to the left edge of the green is often times the best play.  Yes, this can leave a very difficult two-putt, but you can pretty mush assure yourself of no worse than bogey unless you get overly aggressive with your birdie putt. 

In some wind conditions, you can not fire at certain flags.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It takes discipline to choose a line 50 feet from the hole and be satisfied to leave yourself with a long and difficult putt.  If you do end up in a bad spot after your tee shot, often times the smart play then is to also play safe and leave yourself with a long par putt.

Some similar comments are often made about #2 as well.  Once again, it's a hole that rewards an aggressive swing to a conservative target. 

[J_ Crisham]

For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two?  Both look absolutely incredible. 

That's a really good question.  I might have a slight preference for Ballyneal (say 6-4), but I think Ballyneal is a bit easier than Kingsley and that probably factors into it for someone of my skill level. 

Another interesting comparison would be Crystal Downs & Kingsley.  Crystal Downs gets the nod 6-4 or 7-3, but it's pretty close.  Can you tell I liked Kingsley a lot?

John, I would agree that CD would get the nod at about 7-3. No disrespect to Kingsley-it is just a fact that CD is that good. The front 9 at CD is as good as you will see. Not a bad hole in the group. Hopefully we can get back up there soon-I enjoyed our games there,  Jack

[Tim Bert]

For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two?  Both look absolutely incredible. 

That's a really good question.  I might have a slight preference for Ballyneal (say 6-4), but I think Ballyneal is a bit easier than Kingsley and that probably factors into it for someone of my skill level. 

Another interesting comparison would be Crystal Downs & Kingsley.  Crystal Downs gets the nod 6-4 or 7-3, but it's pretty close.  Can you tell I liked Kingsley a lot?

John, I would agree that CD would get the nod at about 7-3. No disrespect to Kingsley-it is just a fact that CD is that good. The front 9 at CD is as good as you will see. Not a bad hole in the group. Hopefully we can get back up there soon-I enjoyed our games there,  Jack

I'd go 7-3 Kingsley because if I played more than 3 rounds at Crystal Downs my handicap would look more like 25 than 10.  Seriously, both are great courses, and while I agree with Jack's front nine comment re: CD, the back is what makes the difference.  I thought Kingsley's back nine holes really shined.

Can you tell I liked Kingsley a lot?

[Jonathan McCord]

Without reading all of the posts in their entirety regarding the 9th, it is certainly one of the toughest and most intimidating for all who've played it.

In my time caddying at Kingsley during the summer of 07, this hole was one that people either loved or hated.

The easiest way to approach this hole is to miss LOW, and by low, I mean keep your ball underneath the flagstick or "Inside the Elbow".  For those who have played it, and for those who haven't, the green is "L" Shaped.  By keeping the ball underneath the hole you give yourself an EXTREME advantage as opposed to those balls  on the outside of the elbow.

The photo below details the strategy.  Missing in the GREEN area will give a good chance at saving par, because everything is uphill.  Missing in the RED area leaves it almost impossible to keep the ball on the green, due to the severity of the downhill slope.



I think it is a great hole, you just need to err on the low side.  This is definately a hole, where ANY number is a possibility!!

[Jonathan McCord]

Another picture showing some of the movement of the 9th green.

[George Freeman]

Is the 9th at KC hard?  Yes!
Can the 9th at time be borderline "unfair": Yes
Are there impossible pin placements? Yes
Can it drive you crazy? Yes
Is it a blast to play? YES!
Do I love this hole? YES!

Usually you have less than 150 yards into this green (unless playing from the back south tees, which are a little long for this hole IMO).  As has been mentioned above, there are spots to miss and spots not to miss.  If you respect the difficulty of the green and play smart (which can mean playing away from the pin), as opposed to aggressively, the hole can be managable.

This is a hole where you just need to enjoy the challenge and embrace it.  And hopefully you're playing matchplay, so the worst that can happen is a lost hole to your opponent.

here are some pics from the website:



from the west tee:


from the south tee:

[Buck Wolter]

I had the opportunity to play in the invitational this year (member/guest) where the flight winners played off on this alternate shot hole from different tees to different hole locations to come up with the overall championship team.

Very interesting to watch groups of players from 2 20's to a pair of brothers that were scratch at worst. The brothers won it but almost got knocked out with a birdie when there were 4 groups and 2 of the other three had net hole in ones and the third just missed their putt for a net one -- that was to a pin on the left lobe from the south tees. In the final two I think the pin was on the middle shelf and the brothers were long right in the short grass and they hit a flop shot Phil would have been excited about to about 3 feet for the win -- one of the best shots I've seen when there weren't ropes.

No matter where the pin is, a play to the left edge of the green is often times the best play.  Yes, this can leave a very difficult two-putt, but you can pretty mush assure yourself of no worse than bogey unless you get overly aggressive with your birdie putt. 

I agree with Jimmy -- that front/left side is the only place I aim after a few plays aiming at the flag. Putting from there to the right/front is very doable. I assume this green draws some inspiration from the boomerang green at Crystal Downs.

[Matt_Ward]

I have not weighed in previously on other holes at Kingsley but put me down as a big time fan of the hole.

It's a classic tale of KNOWING to the yard how far you must flight your ball. No doubt wind conditions influence matters but I don't believe the hole to be unfair -- it's tough but as on any par-3 the question is does the hole provide for a return with a first rate effort. My conclusion ... is that it does.

If you are hitting a green with a very short iron -- I remember hitting it with a PW -- there's no reason why such a shot should not be fundamentally challenged to the max. I salute Jonathan's excellent analysis -- anything deep there is deadsville save for the lucky chip that hits the stick and goes cold dead.

When I think of Kingsley I immediately always draw the connection between the brilliant starting hole and the hole that brings to a close the outer half. I can't think of two better holes among recent new designs that offer that much fun, thinking and frustration for failure to execute.

[Chuck Brown]

We'll all be moving on to the 10th hole and the rest of the back side at Kingsley soon (this has been a great travelogue), and so as someone who offered some of the severest criticism of Hole 9, I'd just like to say that the defenders of the hole have made a good case, and this has been a good discussion.  I think it is nice, that when so many of us who have been to the site and have played the hole under a variety of conditions, that we can have such a fruitful discussion.  For me, it shows how precise and demanding is the job that people like Mr. DeVries undertake.

For those unfamiliar with Kingsley, Hole 9 is, in the view of many, the most controversial and severest of all the holes.  The back nine is a terrific treat, with some of my favorite holes on the course, and the focus of a little additional recent work which should also make for interesting discussion.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chuck,

9 is certainly controversial, but I'm also looking forward to the discussion on another hole that stretches the bounds of convention and acceptability, and I'm thinking specifically about #15 and that little perched green.

[George Freeman]

I have not weighed in previously on other holes at Kingsley but put me down as a big time fan of the hole.

Matt,  I'm curious why you have stayed quite on the rest of the course analysis seeing that you've played the course?  You don't strike me as someone who keeps their opinions to themselves 

[Joe Hancock]

Chuck,

Your response in reply #312 is a keeper. If anyone should have required reading before being allowed full access to posting on this site, it should be what you wrote there.

Thanks,

Joe

[Chuck Brown]

Chuck,

9 is certainly controversial, but I'm also looking forward to the discussion on another hole that stretches the bounds of convention and acceptability, and I'm thinking specifically about #15 and that little perched green.

No problems with that hole, Mike.  I made par there.
In all seriousness, my impression of Kingsley is that the front nine is definitive of its own style; it has a wonderful quality in which every hole relates to all the other front-side holes, and carefully crafted to the land, and isn't very referential to most other courses that I know of.
The back nine, in contrast, seems more varied, it somehow makes you think of other courses, and perhaps isn't as "cohesive" as the front.  But it's an awful lot of fun.
As for 15; remember the guys I referred to, playing behind me, laughing as I carded my nine on 9?  Well, the best player among them made an eight on 15 in much the same way, as I watched...
(We'll catch up on this together when we get to 15 on the tour...)

[Sean_A]

The 9th looks like one of those ultra crazy do or don't die holes.   I gotta get up to this joint as the course looks like it really, really rides the edge of playability and I haven't heard much talk about wind!  Jeepers, whats the back 9  have in store for us?

Ciao

 

[Jimmy Muratt]

Sean,

In no way does the course ride the edge of playability, and yes, it can get very windy as well.  The fairways are quite wide and the course is all about angles and using your imagination.  There are very few approach shots that don't offer you numerous options as to how to play the shot.   Anyone that enjoys and appreciates the ground game and thinking outside the box, will appreciate and enjoy the Kingsley Club. 

I think what some people have a hard time accepting is that on certain holes in certain conditions, such as #9, a 50 foot birdie putt or a greenside bunker shot is the result of a well-played tee shot. 

[Sean_A]

Sean,

In no way does the course ride the edge of playability, and yes, it can get very windy as well.  The fairways are quite wide and the course is all about angles and using your imagination.  There are very few approach shots that don't offer you numerous options as to how to play the shot.   Anyone that enjoys and appreciates the ground game and thinking outside the box, will appreciate and enjoy the Kingsley Club. 

I think what some people have a hard time accepting is that on certain holes in certain conditions, such as #9, a 50 foot birdie putt or a greenside bunker shot is the result of a well-played tee shot. 

Jimmy

I don't have a problem with gravity golf so long as there is space to use the ground.  In fact, the option of gravity golf is the best sort of golf there is imo.  However, there are some slopes in the pics which look near impossible to deal with if conditions are f&f and there is any wind.  That said, if recoveries are on offer (meaning its near impossible to lose a ball that is force fed into the rough) then I don't have a problem with it.  The one aspect which raises red flags is controversy and this is where my riding the edge of playability comment was meant to speak toward.  There is nothing wrong with a bit of it, so long as controversy doesn't become one of the main talking points for a decent percentage of players.  If it is, a load will not come back for a second taste (presumably to take up membership) and a second taster looks to be exactly the type of course Kingsley is.  I have no idea how I would take the course, but there is certainly enough very cool stuff going on to make me want to visit some day, but I have seen and played many, many weird and funky courses whereas the average Michigan and dare I say US punter has not. 

Ciao

[Steve Lang]

  Sean, gravity golf.. a nice term, but perhaps a better term at KC would be tobaggan golf..  your ball can go for quite a ride

[George Freeman]

As I sense a mid-round break, I figured it would be a good time to throw this course map in so that people can get a feel of the layout of the course (and the intimacy of the front nine). 

Also, the trees between 10 and 18 have been removed, which really ties the two nines into one another.

[Mike_DeVries]

Hi All -- sorry for the delay in getting to this, as there is family and business that has come first.  Anyhow, here is some commentary, albeit a little late. . .

Hole #7

The thing about the seventh is the change in the view of the golf course and feeling with each shot on the hole.  From the back tee, you get a view of part of every hole on the front nine and your last look at the “South 40.”  Then you focus on the drive and get a view of the 7th, 8th, and some of the 9th in the distance.  It certainly looks longer than 545 yards, but is just the continuation of holes beyond the 7th.

The drive is restricted visually but has quite a bit more room to the left than appears from the tee.  The big hitter is restricted by the pine trees in the distance – this presents a very distinct choice for them: do you try to take a driver at the right edge of the rough line and use the hill to kick the ball past the trees for a go at the green in two (but blind) from about 220-230 yards, play as tight to the trees as possible for a second of 250-270 yards to the green, or play very safe short of the trees without a chance at getting home in two?  The tough part is deciding how to play the hole before hitting the drive and I think that is the detraction for some players, but it is good course management that wins the hole in the end.

I like the extreme openness of the tee shot from on high, where much of the front nine is visible, and its contrast with the second shot, where the golfer is secluded in a bowl below the rest of the front and with a blind shot (although there is much information to know where to hit your second, once you have played the course).  The flow of the golf course is pertinent and takes a different turn here, but one that is natural in the return to the clubhouse and finish of the outward nine.

The second shot represents more choices: go for the green, lay up to the plateau 100-130 yards from the green, or play into the bowl that would be 75-45 yards from the green.  The choice to go for the green is really only a reality for the biggest hitters.  I think the plateau represents the best chance at a controlled wedge or short iron into the pin location of the day but some prefer to be closer in the bowl but with less visibility to the green surface.

The putting green has three or four different zones, depending on how you look at it: the left bowl at the lowest elevation, the right side which bends around into the back center right at a medium elevation, and the back left pin at the highest elevation.  Each pin presents a different angle of attack versus safe play option and that is why I prefer the approach from the plateau for my third shot, but that is just my preference.

On a personal note, this green is the first time I four-jacked one of my own creations!  In the inaugural club championship, I hit my approach to the left bowl on the green, but the pin was on the back left, well above my position.  I didn’t hit my first putt hard enough and it came back to my feet.  The next one I got up on the plateau but I two-putted from there for the four-jack – the guys still remind me of it to this day – such is life!!!!

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Another delayed post . . .

Hole #8 – Spoiler

The 8th is a great short four and has multiple options, each of which have varying degrees of accuracy required, either for the shot at hand or the next one.  The drive has been talked about by others, with the safe left side open from the tee but with the large bunker to contend with on the approach.  This side is good for pins in the middle and back of the green and for those who are confident with their club distance, as the shot has to clear the edge of the bunker to be safe.  A drive over the “3 Amigos” leaves a more open approach but accuracy is still required to get it close to the hole.  Driver is not required on this short four and definitely a risk, even for regular hitters, as the central bunker starts 260 yards from the tee (remember there is quite a bit of run on the turf here) and sprawls for 30-40 yards past that point – control is the better option here.

The green complex is open but very demanding on the approach.  If you find the putting surface, you have a chance at par or birdie.  If you find the correct plateau, middle or back, you have a good chance at birdie.  I especially like the false side on the right that complicates recovery shots from right of the green, with options to putt, pitch, flop, run-up, etc. the ball to the hole, depending on the golfer’s tendencies.

The name “Spoiler” comes from the hole’s ability to spoil your round with a high number and from a personal story when the owner came over the 3 Amigos’ ridge in construction, along a path strewn with stumps and debris, and the front spoiler piece on his Suburban caught a small, yet still intact, stump and was ripped off the frame.  I took half of the broken plastic and plunged it in the green site for a reference point and sight-line visualization in the dirt – it worked great and the name stuck!

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

8 was the most boring hole on the course for me, I had the same approach shot into the green all 7 times, from the Arata memorial tree grove on the left side directly across from the fairway bunker...... 

Mark,
Excellent -- another name for something on the Spoiler!  What if I cut some of those trees down?  Are we fined due to the limited supply of "Arata memorial aspens" that are available?   

Cheers,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

On a hole, one plays prudently and scores well.. time and time again.. one plays aggresively, has more fun/different challenges and pays many different prices en route to the next tee..  same hole.   Some say great.

Is it really the reward or simply the fact that it keeps enticing one to try differrent approaches because it is just a relative pause in the flow of the course routing.  Play it enough times and you certainly learn all the consequences.  How do folks play it in competition during match play and stroke play.. i'd assume very differently. 

No knock, just considering the alternatives..  and how scared do club members get on many views/backgrounds here.. respect is one thing, been there done that repetition certainly lowers player anxiety.. except perhaps for the 9th, where experience is perhaps more like a Greek Tragedy

Steve,
Some excellent thoughts and I think great is the answer.  Since you have only played it once and your straightforward par seemed uneventful, I can understand your feeling.  But isn't that very similar to many first-time plays on a similar short four with options -- players aren't worried about the length and relax, not knowing what might really be out there to mess them up?  After seeing some of the danger, the next play (and subsequent plays) may lead to some anxiety, either from a former play by yourself or a playing companion, on the next go-around, thus tightening the "simple" wedge shot and leaving you in a very awkward position.  This is particularly prevalent at the Downs, where players look at all the short fours, 6500 from the back, and then go out and get in an unplayable position from not knowing where to miss reasonably.

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

I'd have liked to have seen the 9th with different pin placements. As much as any short hole I've played the pin there seems to make a HUGE difference. I have a hard believing any of them are easy, however.

Andy,
Why is it a HUGE difference when you can putt from any portion of the green to any other part fairly easily?  I think it is about getting the tee shot on the green or to where you are comfortable with your recovery.
Mike