[Mike_DeVries]

#4 is a wonderful hole. I have always particularly liked the drive. I learned to hit a low tee shot at the bunker on the left front of the green and have it hit the back face of the bowl just past the forward tee. For me it would bounce and run straight towards the green along the top of the ridge leaving a perfect view of the entire green for the approach shot. Shots slightly right will be deflected slightly left so they will also stay up on the ridge. Of course a shot more then slightly right will end up down in that deep bowl. More then slightly left and your down that big slope tempting having to hit out of the edge of the rough.
Then there is the approach shot...

Now here is the perfect example of a true golfer!  Ralph plays his hickory to take advantage of the running conditions at Kingsley and to run up on the ridge.   

The line of attack from the tee is actually the left edge of the green, but lots of players go directly at the green and end up in the bowl on the right, blind to the green but with lots of info to go into the green, with the trees in the background and an open approach in the front.  It is a fun drive and always great when you land on the ridge but also fun to hit shots out of the bowl and get it close from a blind spot.

[Mike_DeVries]

What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway...

Put the ol' cut swing on it.  Nice.

Thats right.  See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls.  Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....

Ahhh, I see.  It did not occur to me you would hit it over there on purpose.  It's pretty wide and flat on that part of third fairway, isn't it? 

This is a crime against golf -- it was never meant to be played from #3!!!   

[Mike_DeVries]

The ridge at the front of #4 green that runs across the enitre fairway is one of my favorite landforms(?) at Kingsley -- the way the fairway comes up the hill and then drops down to the green is something I've never seen on an another course -- It reminds me of a bullnose tile. (You can see it in the background of Tim's last picture below). It creates an element of blindness especially to front pins and really makes a precise shot necessary as anything just over the ridge will kick forward. The F&F conditions also create alot of short game options if you end up short of that ridge.

The front approach ridge was there and works very well to advance balls forward into the green and creates a certain amount of blindness to the surface from the landing area to the front part of the green, even from the high part of the ridge in the landing area.  This makes the front pins difficult to get close to and demonstrates the importance of checking the pin location when walking from #2G to #3T.

The flagstick location in the picture is one of my favorite on the green (and there are many on this one!), as it is on a shelf just past the middle ridge before descending into the back bowl -- hard to stop it next to the cup but not bad to be in the back bowl, putting uphill to the hole for a makeable 20' birdie putt!

[JC Jones]

What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway...

Put the ol' cut swing on it.  Nice.

Thats right.  See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls.  Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....

Ahhh, I see.  It did not occur to me you would hit it over there on purpose.  It's pretty wide and flat on that part of third fairway, isn't it? 

This is a crime against golf -- it was never meant to be played from #3!!!   

Its all about giving the golfer options!!

[Mike_DeVries]

What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway...

Put the ol' cut swing on it.  Nice.

Thats right.  See the discussion immediately after my post re landing a driver on the raised fairway between two bowls.  Not as big of a deal from #3 Fairway....

Ahhh, I see.  It did not occur to me you would hit it over there on purpose.  It's pretty wide and flat on that part of third fairway, isn't it? 

This is a crime against golf -- it was never meant to be played from #3!!!   

Its all about giving the golfer options!!

Options, options, everywhere!!!!  I can't argue with that, just hope that golfers don't start thinking that via #3 is a good way to play #4!

[tlavin]

This is an awesome thread, but the course will probably be playable by the time you get to the 18th hole!

[Mike_Cirba]

This is an awesome thread, but the course will probably be playable by the time you get to the 18th hole!

Or under water with Polar Ice Cap melting. 

[Tim Bert]

My philosophy is if people are still chattering about the holes up for discussion why move along to the next one. Plus I was trying to get Mike D. the chance to get caught up which he has been doing nicely.

[Mike_Cirba]

My philosophy is if people are still chattering about the holes up for discussion why move along to the next one. Plus I was trying to get Mike D. the chance to get caught up which he has been doing nicely.

Tim,

Just bustin' on ya.   This is a great thread. 

[Tim Bert]

I know

If I had been able to keep any food or drink down last night you probably would have had #5 by now. Hopefully by the end of the weekend.

[Mike_Cirba]

Get well, Tim...we can probably keep talking about #4 a while longer. 

Seriously, hope you feel better soon.

[JC Jones]

Options, options, everywhere!!!!  I can't argue with that, just hope that golfers don't start thinking that via #3 is a good way to play #4!

Its almost like I've uncovered something I wasnt supposed to

Next time I get the chance to play Im going to aim for #3, take a picture of my ball in #3 fairway and email it to you!!!

[Mike_DeVries]

Options, options, everywhere!!!!  I can't argue with that, just hope that golfers don't start thinking that via #3 is a good way to play #4!

Its almost like I've uncovered something I wasnt supposed to

Next time I get the chance to play Im going to aim for #3, take a picture of my ball in #3 fairway and email it to you!!!

OK, I am expecting full High Rez primo photos and another great birdie!   

[Tim Bert]

#5 is a par 3
222 from the Gold tee
191 from the Blue tee

While the scorecard says this is the 2nd par 3 on the front nine, from the tees that Mike dragged us back to this is really more like the 2nd par 5.  This is an intimidating tee shot to say the least.  Very little of the putting surface can be seen from the tee.  There is a a small grassy runway leading up to the green, but the run-up approach just doesn't seem as appropriate here as it does so many other places on the course.  The landing area short of the green does nothing to inspire confidence that this is the aiming point.  This one feels more like get out your wood or hybrid and have a whack at it!  The green, while no where near the size of the preceeding two holes, is still receptive to the shot (assuming you strike the shot true) since it plays larger than its size.  Particularly to the right side pin we faced, it feels like everything feeds over there.

There's a whole lot of carry from this back tee, and if you dont strike a confident shot you may be faced with a recovery from Hell.  There's plenty of long and scraggly stuff around, and most of the tee shot is carry.

In the afternoon (after Mike wasn't around to see us) we moved up a set of tees, which worked much better for our group.  Smoother swings were evident, and we finished up with 4 balls within birdie range.  The interesting thing was that we all got there in a different manner.  We had the solidly struck shot headed toward the target, the shot that scooted on up and over the hill to the putting surface, and the well struck shot to the left middle of the green that fed over toward the hole.

This is another fun but demanding hole.  It's also another great match play hole that could result in an 'x' on the card.  I can't even imagine taking on the Gold tee with a strong head wind.  I wouldn't have enough club!

The view from the tips.  Everyone should experience it, but this isn't the tee from which I'd want to play my every day game


Two views from a slightly less demanding, but still challenging, tee




The view of the green as you walk over the crest of the hill that obscures the putting surface from the view on the tee.  Here is the result of the 4 shots, all struck in different manners that I mentioned.  Proof that the green can actually be quite friendly if your tee shot finds it.  You can really see the punchbowl effect from this angle.  You can also see #1 pin just beyond this green.


Here's a view of the green from behind the hole.  The countours look slightly different from back here and the punchbowl is a little less evident


A wider angle shot of the green from behind


A shot from fully behind the green with a nice look at the rear bunker

 
A view of the green from above, standing on #2 tee.  From this angle, you can clearly see how everything funnels to the right beyond the middle of the green

[Brian Cenci]

The ridge at the front of #4 green that runs across the enitre fairway is one of my favorite landforms(?) at Kingsley -- the way the fairway comes up the hill and then drops down to the green is something I've never seen on an another course -- It reminds me of a bullnose tile. (You can see it in the background of Tim's last picture below). It creates an element of blindness especially to front pins and really makes a precise shot necessary as anything just over the ridge will kick forward. The F&F conditions also create alot of short game options if you end up short of that ridge.

The front approach ridge was there and works very well to advance balls forward into the green and creates a certain amount of blindness to the surface from the landing area to the front part of the green, even from the high part of the ridge in the landing area.  This makes the front pins difficult to get close to and demonstrates the importance of checking the pin location when walking from #2G to #3T.

The flagstick location in the picture is one of my favorite on the green (and there are many on this one!), as it is on a shelf just past the middle ridge before descending into the back bowl -- hard to stop it next to the cup but not bad to be in the back bowl, putting uphill to the hole for a makeable 20' birdie putt!

Mike,
     I prefer to play the whole the way when I played with you.  Hit a drive and second shot short and then putt it from 60 yards off the green to a front pin (using the middle slope as a backstop) for a par.

-Brian

[Andy Troeger]

Tim,
Interesting comments. I thought this was by far the LEAST nervewracking par three on the front nine despite its length. That may be more of a comment on the other two holes than the 5th itself. We had a far left pin, so it was a matter of hitting it in the bowl and trying to two-putt. This one, as with many at Kingsley, changes significantly depending on the pin.

[Tim Bert]

Tim,
Interesting comments. I thought this was by far the LEAST nervewracking par three on the front nine despite its length. That may be more of a comment on the other two holes than the 5th itself. We had a far left pin, so it was a matter of hitting it in the bowl and trying to two-putt. This one, as with many at Kingsley, changes significantly depending on the pin.

Andy - We haven't gotten to my comments on #9 yet!   

#2 just wasn't all that nerve-wracking for me.  We had no wind and didn't face the dreaded front pin.  I had a 9-iron in my hand.  Missing the shot would have led to something nerve-wracking, but the tee shot itself wasn't intimidating.

For #5 I stood there with a 1-iron hybrid in my hand, a club I can often hit way too low and way too short when I mishit it, so the tee shot was very much on my mind.  It was much less intimidating from the 190 spot.

[Andy Troeger]

Tim,
I think we looked only at the back tee marker. That might have changed my mind as I'm much better with a long iron than a fairway wood. I think it was a 5-iron from 190 for me which didn't seem like that big of a deal. In any case, its probably my favorite of the par threes on the front, or probably the entire course.

[JC Jones]

i love this hole.  I could not get comfortable with the visual standing on the tee.  I ended up hitting the 5 iron of my life, right at the pin ... long.  Up the hill, long, is not where I'd recommend hitting your second shot from.

My brother bailed out right because he couldnt convince himself there was green behind the dune.  The pin was back left on the hill, almost in a place where your choices were to make it or have a 20 footer back up the hill.  Only pin position of the day that was borderline unfair.

[George Freeman]

great par 3 with a different feel to it than any of the other par 3s at Kingsley.  I think it is much more visually difficult than it plays.  The "effective" green size is much larger than the green itself.  I've seen balls miss the green 10 yards left and end up down in the right bowl of the green. 

Back left pin is one of the toughest on the course IMO.  I have never seen the front pin placement there, so I can't comment.

Contrary to the rest of the course, this hole doesn't photograph very well IMO.  But in person the contours are in really cool (however they don't show up well in photos).

Here are some pics from the website:





this pic shows some of the contours around the green

[John Kirk]

You have the choice of hitting a high, soft fairway wood, or a lower long iron that only has to carry the front ridge to reach the green.  Let's say #5 is playing 205 for the day.  It might be a 7-wood, but it could also be a 4- or even a 5-iron that just carries the ridge.  The long iron tends to fly straighter, so the fairway wood might be considered the riskier play.

Because of the front ridge, the hole plays a bit shorter with a long iron.  Kingsley #5 shares this trait with another modern punchbowl par 3, #15 at Ballyneal.

The back left pin is attainable, but it takes a very good shot.  The back right pin is one of the easiest on the course, and yields lots of missed short birdie putts.

[Mike_DeVries]

The 5th is in direct contrast to the parallel 2nd, in that it accepts many shots into its long punchbowl setting versus the repellency of the ridgetop short 2nd.  I like that they are adjacent to each other and you can see the location of the 5th's pin when you leave the 1st green.

I think the intimidation of the length of the shot is offset by the gathering of the bowl, making it the easiest of the par 3's overall (evidenced by the afternoon group's 4 on the green when they played a more comfortable tee).  Although listed as the longest of the 3's from the back, the play is often shorter than the yardage with a shot in the approach that will run down to the pin.  I am definitely more comfortable with this tee shot than some of the others, knowing the margin of error is wider than most, and I will usually have a good chance at a putt or inventive chip shot.

One of the interesting aspects of the hole is that, with the exception of the far right bowl, where most shots end up, it is very difficult to get the ball close to the hole with the tee shot.  This makes it difficult to make a 2 under most circumstances but a 3 or 4 is very doable for most players.  And there have been numerous hole-in-ones and short birdie putts when the pin is in the far right bowl.

I really enjoy playing a shot out to the left, over the small bunker in the hillside, and watch it careen out from behind the hill and across the green -- the delay is somewhat unnerving at first but satisfying once you see the ball reappear.

Mike

[JC Jones]

I agree that the tee shot would be more comfortable, the 2nd time around.  Standing on the tee for the first time, its hard to trust the caddie that there is a world beyond the hill on the left.

Also, while the right bowl might be as easy as it gets on the course, back left is as hard as it gets.  With fast greens, its hard to get the ball up the hill and keep it there.

[Tim Bert]

I really enjoy playing a shot out to the left, over the small bunker in the hillside, and watch it careen out from behind the hill and across the green -- the delay is somewhat unnerving at first but satisfying once you see the ball reappear.

Mike

I never fancied you the type to enjoy a shot that disappears and then comes back into view after some delay.    

Seriously, with repeated play, I think I could bring myself to become more comfortable with the shot from the tips here.  When I lack the confidence with that length of shot my weakness and uncertainty shine through and are reflected in the result.

We've got a bear of a slightly uphill 200+ par 3 at my home course and my shots were dismal there at first as I tried to do too much.  They've gotten better with time.

[JNC Lyon]

What's the harder par three, 2 or 5?  It seems like the 5th is a classic example of Mackenzie's "make it play easier than it looks" philosophy.

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