[Tim Bert]

I too hope that Mike will chime in on this thread at some point if he has the time. I started this thread with his blessing.

My take on the relationship to Crystal Downs is that there are clearly some ways Mike was influenced by CD. I think the same could be said of Tom Doak at High Pointe. At the same time, I would not consider either of these courses to be tribute courses. To do so (as great as CD is) would not serve justice to either course and the original holes and ideas that are plentiful at each.

One can't help but notice the broad-brush similarities in routing of the three in terms of front nine more intricate and inter-woven and back nine meanders through the woods, but there are plenty of differences as well.

Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding.  One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least two of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.   

If it isn't yet obvious I walked away from this course feeling almost as strongly as Shivas feels about Rock Creek. And that's saying something.

Looking forward to the continued discussion.

[John Kirk]

I was playing in the Peninsula Cup a couple of years ago with a guy who could really play, a former club champion at Oakmont in Pennsylvania.  He had trouble off the first tee, but managed to get it to the front right of the green in three shots.  The pin was back right, and as I cringed on the inside, he picked it cleanly with a wedge, pitching the ball to the back and spinning it to a stop two feet away for a tap-in par.

After the shaky start, he got hot and was really playing by the back nine.  He must have shot 67 on his own ball that day, which is close to, or even equal to, the course record.

[David Neveux]

Tim

Well said.  I would not assume to say that it's a TRIBUTE COURSE, and in no way did I intend to take anything away from KC.    As you pointed out there are many similarities and I do think that Mike's style has no doubt been influenced by CD and other Classical values of architecture.  There are some small similarities, the challenge and tilt of the greens.  To say Kingsley is a better course is a matter of personal opinion, and yes, I myself can see where you're coming from.  I think the biggest similarity is variety, and even more so the day to day variety.  I figure out / find something new every time I'm there.  It was interesting to me to play a round with Mike, and see him attack his own creation.  Particularly, the short par 4 13th, but I'll save that story for when we get there.  These courses are playable for everyone, and everyone will play it differently.  They don't favor a certain type of player (except for maybe the exceptional putter) and everyone from scratch to high handicap will struggle and vice versa.  But each takes mulitple plays for one to feel comfortable and learn particularly you limits.  A player is going to make bogeys and doubles and x's but they're going to be intersting bogeys to say the least.  I could go on and on and on about the my own victories and stuggles at each course.  To sum it up, I think they are perfect compliments to one another,they are easily comparable and similar, yet different in there own right.  If someone asked you, what course would you say is truly comparable to CD what would be your response?  If someone asked you to direct him to the closest copy of KC where would you send him?  Furthermore, to say that KC is a tribute course takes away from the original holes and ideas throughout was not my intention.  In fact it was an attempt to pay respect and the highest compliment I could think of using the contrast and compare argument.  

[Andy Troeger]

I did hit two balls off the tee the first time. I overhooked the first one a bit and it took the slope left into the trouble--I don't believe we even found it. For a longer hitter, it makes them think twice about blasting it, not to mention the bunker complex itself. Great opening hole, lots of options right off the bat. One of the five best openers I've played (not sure what the other four are off the bat, but it has to be there--Crystal Downs would be too).

[Mike_Cirba]

Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding.  One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.   

Tim,

It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement.  It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.

[Tim Bert]

Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding.  One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.   

Tim,

It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement.  It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.

Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well. 

[Alan Gard]

I'll own up to the opinion Tim references and without shame note that I preferred Kingsley to Crystal Downs, but I loved and appreciated the opportunity to play both.

KC hole #1 is just the start to an exhilerating round of golf.  Good shotmaking is rewarded, options are presented, and those of us playing so badly that our only justification for playing golf is for fitness reasons get some good exercise going down and up and down and up.

[JC Jones]

I think there is some justification for those who prefer KC to CD.  I dont agree with them but I think that there is a legitimate argument to be made that the disparity between the front and back nines (in terms of interest and architecture) is less at KC than it is at CD. 

That being said, we are talking about going from an 11 to a 10 and from a 10.5 to a 10.  CD only seems greater b/c of the superiority of the front nine.

Considering their proximity and their greatness, I think its impossible to not compare/contrast.

[Tim Bert]

JC

Agree. All four nines are outstanding. If I were forced to choose a front nine CD wins. Back nine KC wins. To me the deciding factor is that KC front nine is a closer match. What Mike was able to do with the back nine after having to follow up his own routing genius on the front nine blew me away. Most of my favorite holes on the course are on the back nine even though the front nine could be seen as superior as a set.

[JC Jones]

Tim

I think the front nine is the superior set b/c it doesnt have any holes that allow for much questions whereas the back, although it has some great holes, does have one or two holes that dont live up to the rest (15 & 17) come to mind although its been 16 months since I've played it.

[Andy Troeger]

I played Crystal and Kingsley back to back, although we played 36 at Kingsley and 18 at CD. When I first put them into my list I had Kingsley ahead--barely. After a little while to think about it I changed my mind and went with Crystal Downs, but its closer than many would give it credit for. I'm not surprised that one could prefer Kingsley

[Tim Bert]

I really liked 15, but I understand it draws some strong opinions in the opposite direction. As for 17 it is certainly different but I have never seen a hole of that scale (combination of width with the new fairway and the absurd up and down and up) and it thought it was pretty cool. We are getting way ahead of ourselves!  I will post #2 over the weekend.

[RSLivingston_III]

Damn, you guys are making me home sick. Had one visit in the spring and never got back again this year.

[Jim Tang]

Kingsley is a great, great golf club.  I had the pleasure of playing 36 back in July of this year.

The first is a classic risk/reward hole which gives you multiple options and lines of play.  Those bunkers are death.  If you manage to carry them, you can get home in two.  However, if you don't carry them, you're looking at a one stroke penalty, maybe more.  Those bunkers are deep.  I should know, I was in the second one in round # 2.  Painful to the scorecard.

I also like how the hole narrows and rises as you go.  The more aggressive you play your second shot, the more trouble you bring into play.

[Adam Clayman]

It can't be emphasized enough how Dan Lucas and crew maintain Kingsley. It's truly an ideal MM.
 Crystal has just a few rough spots(in the rough), where recovery is impossible. It makes one wonder why the club doesn't go all out and eliminate or minimize. Until one realizes that this is 2008 and we are in America and the mindset of many is so clouded by the need for difficulty/penality.

[George Freeman]

Adam,

I couldn't agree more.  Kingsley Club is one of the best, if not the best, maintained courses I've ever played.  And by best maintained I don't mean Augusta-like, I mean firm, fast and excellent playability.  The fairways ROLL out, making all the movement in them actually mean something.  The greens are kept at the perfect firmness and speed where they are perfectly challenging and playable; right on the correct side of playable/non-playable.  Also, the scrub or long natuarl areas are more of a 1/2 stroke penalty than a full stroke and/or lost ball; and I really like that.  You can most often find your ball in the hay, and a decent % of the time advance it pretty well, and other times only 40-60 yards.  I think this is extremely better than the super thick stuff around some courses where finding a ball is lucky enough, let alone being able to get a club on it.     

[Tim Bert]

You guys are stealing all my thunder with the maintenance meld comments. I agree it is the best I have seen. I imagine Ballyneal is close based on comments I have read, but my one day there was before the course could have been expected to be in a mature state.

I attribute KC success to Mike, Dan, and the crew and the constant communication and discussion that takes place on a regular basis. It can only help that it also happens to be the home course of the architectand that he has a strong relationship with the super.  I have never played a course where the conditions felt more in tune with the intent.

[JC Jones]

It can't be emphasized enough how Dan Lucas and crew maintain Kingsley. It's truly an ideal MM.
 Crystal has just a few rough spots(in the rough), where recovery is impossible. It makes one wonder why the club doesn't go all out and eliminate or minimize. Until one realizes that this is 2008 and we are in America and the mindset of many is so clouded by the need for difficulty/penality.

I never got the sense that the mindset at Crystal was reflective of the general golfing public.  Then again, I've only played there once and the member I played with is also a member at Kingsley...

[John Mayhugh]

Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding.  One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least two of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.   

I'm unable to commit to liking one course over the other.  Each is pretty special.  It was great to be able to play the two courses on back to back days.  Kingsley (like Ballyneal) does show that modern golf course design can certainly compete with the classics. 

The opening tee shot is one of my favorites.  It gets you in the right frame of mind for the wild journey ahead.  I was scared of the left fairway because of the slope towards the trees and opted to go right each time.  It just felt like the slightest pull would end up in trouble.   

One additional picture here.  Great place to sit and relax.  That is if you can keep from rushing back out to get in more holes.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Tim, for the pics and you and others for the comments. I've only played Mike D's The Mines, but I see (or think I see) some similarities. One is that Mike seems to like canted fairways, both for their aesthetic and their shot-making qualities/demands. I really like canted fairways, but don't come across them very much for some reason (even on courses/sites where the surrounding countryside has noticeable slopes/cants).  The other is a more subtle similarity, and that's the sense of 'ease' and 'grace' that seems to characterize his work, i.e. he manages to make the finished product (and its bunkers and greens etc) seem effortless....if you know what I mean.

Peter 

[Carl Nichols]

Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding.  One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.   

Tim,

It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement.  It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.

Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well. 

I play left-handed too, but have never played here -- looks like I need to bump this up my list!

[Buck Wolter]

Here's a look at #1 from behind the green that gives an idea of the options of playing left off the tee. After having a drive into the wind roll half-way back down the hill on the right, I may give it a try into a good wind the next time.




A good story on the club from Links in 2004 about how the course came to be.
http://www.kingsleyclub.com/DIRpress/LINKSMagazine.pdf

[Adam Clayman]

I never got the sense that the mindset at Crystal was reflective of the general golfing public.  Then again, I've only played there once and the member I played with is also a member at Kingsley...

I wouldn't presume to get the membership's mindset, from a few native areas which are not maintained lean and mean. My comment was descriptive of the course and not meant as indictment of anyone.

The fairways and greens at CD were kept as well as TKC, and likely better due to maturity.

These two courses, and Greywalls, were the only Michigan courses I saw on my 2 weeks in the state that had Ideal Maintenance Melds. Sadly, nationally, that's probably a pretty high percentage.

[Eric_Terhorst]

I like a par 5 opener, and this one is exceptional.   Add my thanks to the pile Tim.

Speaking of maintenance meld, however, am I the only one who wonders if the long nasty grass around the center bunkers is really necessary?  (And yes, I am an embittered golfer who watched a slightly errant tee shot hop in there, never to be seen again...)

Aren't the bunkers penal enough all by themselves for those who miss the right or left by a bit?

Couldn't the grass be made playable, a 1/2 stroke penalty, instead of lost-ball deep?

[Tim Bert]

Hole #2 is a par 3
161 from the Gold tee
140 from the Blue tee

As one walks off the first green still astounded at the width of the first hole, the 2nd hits you like a ton of bricks for a couple of reasons. 

The first reason is sensory overload.  You step up to the tee and most of the front nine unfolds before you.   The fifth green is in plain view (and pay sttention because it won't be when you play the 5th!)  The third and fourth fairways lay just beyond the 2nd.  Turn to your right and you can see the knee-knocking 6th tee shot in all its glory.  The entire 1st is sprawled out behind you.  The front nine comes together right here, and yet there's probably a fair chance you won't see another group when standing here.

The second reason is that the 2nd tee shot is terrifying for one of such little distance.  After playing a couple loose shots up the fairway of the first, all of the room to miss is suddenly taken away from you.  Yes, you will be hitting a mid or short iron, but that is no consolation standing on the tee.  You see more long grass and bunkering than you do green.  This is a hole where all but the most adept golfers should aim for the middle and hope for the best.  I can't imagine the shot with the wind howling.  We played in a fairly mild breeze both rounds.

As long as you don't miss short, long, or to either side of this green, you have a good shot to make par.

The view from the tee


Another view from the tee zoomed closer on the green


The front of the green


From behind


Another looking back


A skyline view of the 2nd from the 4th demonstrates the intimacy of the front nine


The view of the 6th (on the right) and the 4th (on the left) from the 2nd tee


The view of the 4th (foreground) and the 3rd (background) from the 2nd tee



 

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