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Mike_Cirba

The 9th is the shortest par five on the planet, and I was the only one in my foursome to score a birdie four there last time, although the others all got their pars.  ;)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have only played Kingsley three times but have hit about 20 shots from each of the two main tees.  I have no clue how to play the hole.  It requires a precise shot and demands great execution.  I can't decide whether I like the hole or hate it.  All I know is that I want another shot at it.

WT...heck?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is the kind of hole I'd love to have in my backyard.  Take a few wedges and short irons and have at it.  Being given the chance for an up and down (miraculous though it'd have to be) makes this hole MUCH more interesting and exciting to me than the 17th at Sawgrass.

A couple more photos:

A look at the southern lobe from right of the green:


And the scariest: a top shelf pin:


Mike_Cirba

The wildflowers through the course add to the rugged beauty.



This was the view for my second shot.


John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'd say the greatest drawback of the 9th hole is the walk between tee and green, which is straight downhill, then severely uphill, if one decides to walk directly to the green.  You might be better off just walking an extra hundred yards on the cart path, but I usually just follow the ball and then take it as a personal aerobic challenge, scaling the face of the mountain that is the 9th green, breathing heavily in rhythm to my footsteps as my thighs pulse with blood as I...

Had a great year playing the hole, six pars and a birdie!  It's too easy.

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
This has GCA get-together written all over it, IMHO.

Terry,
When should we do it?  I know the GCA crowd has a crowded schedule, but I would love to get together and hear the thoughts in person -- would be great fun to walk around with the hickories and/or short clubs and see the different variations people would try!

What does everyone think?
Mike


Mike,

You know the drill...  Pick a date and they will come.  I just sure hope you don't pick anything in April  ;D  Hopefully those making the trip get to not just walk but play this beauty. ;)

Happy New Year!
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have no experience with the use of nitroglycerine, but I am thinking that the 9th at Kingsley might be a good place to experiment.

I hit 5-iron from the back tees, into the wind.  The hole location was back middle-right.  I made about the best swing I had made all day.  Standing on the tee watching it, my foursome congratulated me on hitting the best tee shot of the group.  The ball landed on the front of the green, bounced once, rolled up to a spot about six feet short and slightly left of the flagstick, the wrong side of the ridge, and proceeded to roll back, perhaps 30-35 feet, off the green to the front left.  And bumped up against a shaggy cut of rough, giving me little chance to control the next shot.  I hit an okay chip, keeping the ball below the hole, but with zero spin.  It rolled off the green, to the right side falloff, and never stopped until it had rolled down through the closely-mown portion, which basically has no bottom to it, into heavy rough, leaving me now a 20-yard pitch to a tiny target that was eight or ten feet above me.  I chipped that ball onto the green, settling it again below the hole, but it once again rolled off the same way my tee shot had rolled off.  I now found myself laying three, within just a few feet of where my tee shot had been.  But now I had a little better lie to get grooves onto the ball.  So I hit a more lofted, spinning shot, and hit it on a higher, more aggressive line to the hole, thinking that the conservative line staying below the hole hadn't done me any good.  I hit that shot, not terribly, but again the green simply wouldn't accept it.  And, a ball that came within a revolution or two of stopping on the green again took the slope and went down the hill to the right, this time taking the roll from the closely-mown runoff area and scooting farther off to the right and leaving me a harder angle than on my second shot.  Laying four and facing a terrible disaster (not to mention holding up my buddies on the tee behind us, whose laughter was audible 174 yards away), I then grabbed sand wedge and quickly tried to hit a shot that would come to rest anywhere on the green.  I hit a soft shot into the center of the green, but that of course is where the center ridge is, and that ball drifted to the front {edit - left} collar of the green.  Five.  Now, facing essentially the same shot for the third time on a Par-3 hole, I simply lagged a putt to a place on the green, about the size of a billiard table, where it would not roll off.  I am sucessful, with my sixth shot.  I hit another conservative putt, below the hole, seven.  Petrified of what was left (the last time my ball was this close to the cup on this hole was on my tee shot, for a moment), I missed that putt on the low (right) side and watched it drift scarily away.  Eight.  I then made a rather good comeback putt from about two feet.  Nine.

We've all had occasions where we hit three cummy shots but still managed to make par on a Par-4.  Or even where we managed to make birdie after three unremarkable shots on a Par 5.

On the 9th at Kingsley, I hit about seven good shots and wound up with a 9.

Somebody please inform me how that hole is supposed to be played, because it is the one incomprehensible hole on a course that I otherwise admire very much.  
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 07:51:57 PM by Chuck Brown »

Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
The first time I played it was from the South tee, made a par....The next 6 times from the west tee, and never came close. It is next to impossible to hold the ball on that green downwind from the west when the pin is in the front and I believe Mike actually said the best play might be to put it in the front bunker and try and get up and down.

I love this hole, it looks very easy from the west tee, but it is just waiting to inflict diabolical sabotagy on your round.

there doesnt seem to be a safe place to miss on the hole either, which is something I both like and hate at the same time........

New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think the inevietable poll question should be asked here...and let me first say I haven't played the course, only seen it in pics.

Without mentioning the dread U-word, (unfair)...is this hole over the top?  The hole looks brutal in pics and when folks say the pics don't do it justice, then it makes me think yikes.  Don't get me wrong, I love quirk by the truck-loads but is this just too much?

So for those who have played it, its time to wiegh in:

A yes vote means yes its over-the-top, perhaps it needs to be softened.
A no vote means its fine as it is, its good fun playing the worlds shortest par 5.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 11:47:43 AM by Kalen Braley »

Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
My vote is yes it is a bit over the top and no I wouldnt change a thing about it........ ;D
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
My vote is yes it is a bit over the top and no I wouldnt change a thing about it........ ;D

Oh great Mark, now you've fouled up the whole thing.   ;D

I know some people prefer to remain anonymous, so you can vote here if you wish.

http://kbjames.freepolls.com/cgi-bin/polls/007/poll_center.htm

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kalen

I wouldn't have felt deprived and wouldn't have minded one bit had the 9th been completely different than what we encountered.

That being said - it isn't unfair it is just extremely difficult. It is far from my favorite hole on the course. It is probably one of my least favorite but that is because most of the others are really, really good.  I don't think it needs to be changed.

You'll be hard-pressed to get a straight yes or no from most that have played it. More than one word is needed here.   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tim,

Thats sounds good, thats why I didn't techincally use the U-word.

I would never even begin to suggest completly changing the hole.  FWIW, I would think the rear of the green complex area could be softened a little to allow some type of recovery or even tee shot option....while leaving the front as is.

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 9th is the rare kind of golf hole that you think about and ponder over before, during, and after your round.  It is severe, ruthless and tempting.  I love it. 

From the west tee, I've had the most success aiming at the very front left corner of the green.  The ball feeds a little right and even when downwind, the slope behind the front left corner helps to kill the momentum of the golf ball. 

It's the kind of golf hole where a bogey is often a good score and a par is fantastic.  Playing into the front bunkers and then trying for an up-and-down from there is often a great strategy.  You must not, however, get too aggressive with your bunker shot or you can leave yourself in an even worse position. 

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's over the top.  It's not irrevocable, despite my snarling reference to nitroglycerin.  (A reaction, like all good reactions, borne out of rage, humiliation, frustration and personal failure  :D)

What I think the hole clearly needs:  First, this hole is crazy from 170 to 180 yards.  Somebody help me out here -- have you lasered the distance from the back/South tees?  It's long!  This is a good hole from about 130-140 yards.

Second, that falloff area to the right of the green; it is okay to have that fall off, but there has to be something to catch the runoff.  As it is now, balls just roll off, and on and on and on...

And there's too much rolloff on the front of the green, such that balls landing reasonably gently in the middle of the green can roll off the entire surface, to rest in the no man's land in the front intermediate cut.  (I'm not describing this very well, I am afraid.

Maybe, if somebody told me how the hole is supposed to be played, I'd have better ideas on how to fix it.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chuck,

This is why I was suggesting a bailout area long which doesn't seem to exist right now.  It looks like going long is the worst play of all because its an impossible shot to try to hold coming back down the green.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chuck,

This is why I was suggesting a bailout area long which doesn't seem to exist right now.  It looks like going long is the worst play of all because its an impossible shot to try to hold coming back down the green.
Yeah, you are quite right; long is such a disaster, such an inescapable jail (apparent even as you first walk onto the tee) that no one in my group evaen dared to tempt it.  With all my floundering, "long" or "deep" was never an option.  This of course related to the back-right pin placement too. 

I'm okay with that, insofar as the penalty for "long" emphasizes the need to tempt the fates that await a short play.  What I'd insist on is something that affords something of a bailout right or left, which would also have the effect of emphasizing the green contours that await a chip shot lateral to the hole.

I think what I might do is to leave the green as small as it is (it is a lovely, albeit intimidating, setting as it is, in good scale with the existing bunkering, the hillside, etc.) but right and left of the green need some work...

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
I refuse to use the U-word, but a golf hole can be badly designed or just plain stupid.  This isn't one of those--it's a good hole that would get better with some softening.  My suggestion would be to pare down the slope on the left side to make it safer to play over there while still leaving a difficult up n down.  That may not be technically possible, or was it ruled out for cost reasons? 

Playing into the front bunkers and then trying for an up-and-down from there is often a great strategy.  You must not, however, get too aggressive with your bunker shot or you can leave yourself in an even worse position. 

From the west tee I found one of the bunkers on the right, flopped it up, and had 4-footer for par when the pin was cut on that little shelf in front.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm loving all the discussion. Chuck needs to go back and make another nine before feeling so strongly about it...... ;D

I was playing with Mike one day(maybe also with Paul Thomas? or David Cronan?) and as we approached no. 9, there was a contingent of Vietnamese who were going to meet Mike at the turn...they were doing an "interview" for a project over there. Anyway, I missed to the right(from the south tee) and decided the play was a 90 degree- from- target pitch into the hillside, letting the ball come back to the pin. I pulled it off wonderfully, leaving a two footer for par, which I made. But, it was funny and a bit strange to have a bunch of Vietnamese, in Northern Michigan, applauding a total stranger who had made a nice little chip.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
...

A look at the southern lobe from right of the green:


This is a beatiful photo, and I think it illustrates what I had been trying, perhaps not so successfully to describe.  Look at the closely-mown area falling off from the side of the green.  You see how it nicely takes errant balls away from the green.  That would be okay, if those balls were directed to an area where they were held, for a sporty play back into position on the green.  But the runoff doesn't go to such a place.  It just goes; and goes and goes, so that balls run through the closely-mown area to the rough.  It is that area that is too severe.  The closely-mown area merely acts as a mass transit system to take balls that may have been close, and run them off into neverland.  I'd have no problem if that closely-mown area were a large collection area.  But there is no "collection."

In the case of my 9, the red flagstick was where the blue flagstick is in the picture of the back-right pin.  Imagine you are down that hill, with your ball having spilled through the full length of the closley-mown falloff, into the longer rough (there is nothing to stop any ball from doing that) and the hole is located about 12 paces to the right of where you see the red flag; toward what is the back of the green.

Mike_Cirba

C'mon Chuck...quit your whining.  ;)


Seriously, I loved hearing your story.

Now, I especially feel good about my birdie 4.  ;D

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chuck:

When that photo was taken, a player in our group hit it into that exact area you're speaking of, only his ball stayed in the lighter rough and did not run into the really tall stuff.  He was a couple under at that point and walked off with a 7 (after unsuccessfully trying a Phil Mickelson type flop shot directly at the pin).

Afterwards we all tried a few shots from where his ball had been, and the shot that Joe describes (on the highest bank toward the golf shop above that blue pin) was the one that was most successful.  The tricky thing there was getting the ball to descend that bank at just the right angle - a little light and it was coming right back toward you, and a little strong and it was headed into the bunkers in between the two lobes.

Other shots got it onto the green including a few bumps running up the bank right of the flag in this photo and then trickling down, but they were tough to control as well.

Stiff penalties but it invites some serious creativity.  Sometimes the best bet is just to hit it back over the green into those bunkers for a better chance at recovery.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two?  Both look absolutely incredible. 

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
For those who have played both Ballyneal and Kingsley -- I have played neither -- if you had 10 rounds to play, how would you divide between the two?  Both look absolutely incredible. 

It's one of the few comparisons where I'd sit firmly on the fence and go 5-5.  I love them both and you'd want as many repeated plays as you could get on either one.  Add Sand Hills to the mix, and I'd probably go 3-3-3 and flip a coin for the 10th round.  They're all three different and all three wonderful.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
I haven't followed this discussion closely, but looking at the photos of the 9th here, then thinking about #2, #11 and #16, Kingsley's probably a bit like Rye, in England. I can't recall who said it, but when asked what are the most difficult shots at Rye, someone answered: "The second shots at the par-3s!"
jeffmingay.com

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