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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the harder par three, 2 or 5?  It seems like the 5th is a classic example of Mackenzie's "make it play easier than it looks" philosophy.

Its hard to imagine the 135 yard PW could be harder to score with than the 220 yard 3iron.... ??? ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jon Heise

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of my faves out at KC.  220 is a long way for most of us.  I can probably get it out there 5/10 times, carry.  I know I'd hate to not get it out to the green with the tee shot, luckily I made the carry.  That's part of the fun.  If you can get it out that far, youre likely to get a pretty decent look into the hole.  First time out, stuck it to 6', so no problems there.  2nd go-around, went long, and had to PUTT the ball out of the bunker.  That is just FUN, and a real treat you dont get to do very often.
I still like Greywalls better.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
The safe play is to hit a 5 or 6 iron and land it just past the crest of the knoll in the approach. It always feeds onto the green and takes the back bunker out of play.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Andy Troeger

What's the harder par three, 2 or 5?  It seems like the 5th is a classic example of Mackenzie's "make it play easier than it looks" philosophy.

Depends on the pin locations on the particular holes, but I would say the 2nd is harder more often than not, with more opportunities for disaster. One might make more bogeys on #5, but more others on #2.

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
2nd go-around, went long, and had to PUTT the ball out of the bunker.  That is just FUN, and a real treat you dont get to do very often.

Jon,

I am going to have to have a talk with Dan Lucas about that -- one should never believe that a putt out of a bunker has a legitimate chance of being a decent play!!!!  Bunkers need lips on them, requiring a real wedge shot so the hazard is really a hazard!   :-[  :'(

Best,
Mike

Jon Heise

  • Karma: +0/-0
2nd go-around, went long, and had to PUTT the ball out of the bunker.  That is just FUN, and a real treat you dont get to do very often.

I am going to have to have a talk with Dan Lucas about that -- one should never believe that a putt out of a bunker has a legitimate chance of being a decent play!!!!  Bunkers need lips on them, requiring a real wedge shot so the hazard is really a hazard!   :-[  :'(



Well, I did have to give it a pretty good whack to get it out...  It was a better play than trying a 10 yard lob wedge out of the bunker where a littel thin contact puts me back on the teebox.  Trust me, my knees were knocking on that one!  I thought it was pretty cool!

Jon
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 12:20:46 PM by Jon Heise »
I still like Greywalls better.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
The safe play is to hit a 5 or 6 iron and land it just past the crest of the knoll in the approach. It always feeds onto the green and takes the back bunker out of play.

Joe

I would agree if one has the distance.  I hit a 5-iron 190 at best and that's when I really get it.  I didn't get the sense that was enough club for me from the tips. 

In fact, I think I ended up using a 5 or 6 from the 190 tee and it was just about right. 

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
It can take 10 seconds for your tee shot to come to rest on #5. If the pin is back right you can just fly the ridge on the left and it will catch the downslope, kick forward and roll onto the green taking the break to the right and curving just short of the back bunker and back to the pin leaving a 2 footer for birdie. I meant to do that ;).

I believe it's a much easier hole than #2.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Nick_Christopher

  • Karma: +0/-0
The fifth is the least intimaditing one-shotter on the front nine by a wide margin.  Knowing that there is a nice friendly bowl to hit into is a refreshing break from the narrow landing strip on #2 or the adventure I am probably anticipating subconsiously on the wild 9th.   Many ways to play it, but I try to draw it into the bank on the left and two putt.  If I get lucky maybe the pin is on the right and I get the thrill of watching the ball shoot down the slope for a birdie try. 

The complex around the 1st and 5th greens as well as the 2nd and 6th tees is tremendous.  A great place to take in all of the front 9 action, which is usually just a breeze, a few clouds and the view.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Nick just mentioned a neat feature of the Kingsley design, the "quiet area" around the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th greens.

I keep hole-by-hole scores at a few places.  My scoring average on the par 3s on the front nine are all about the same:

2 - 3.43
5 - 3.39
9 - 3.43

I was hot on #9 this year, with six pars and a birdie, which brought its average score down in line with the others.  In general, I think #5 is the easiest of the three.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am curious what others think of the difficulty of Kingsley Club. I have never had anything but a great time golfing there. It is a fun course IMO.  I have heard from others that they liked it, but thought it was a hard golf course, as in too demanding. The talk about #5 brought this to mind, because I doubt many high handicap golfers would consider #5 an easy hole.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am curious what others think of the difficulty of Kingsley Club. I have never had anything but a great time golfing there. It is a fun course IMO.  I have heard from others that they liked it, but thought it was a hard golf course, as in too demanding. The talk about #5 brought this to mind, because I doubt many high handicap golfers would consider #5 an easy hole.

Ed,

I would bet that if someone really like the course, but thought it was a little too tough, they probably played Kingsley when the greens were running a little close to the threshold.  That's really the only complaint I've ever heard about Kingsley's playability: when the greens get too quick, it can be close to impossible with some pin placements and on some greens.

cheers,

George
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mike_Cirba

Ed,

I think Kingsley is exciting golf.

You won't lose many balls, yet you can score a million or so if you're missing in the wrong places.

On the 5th however, I think it's a matter of where to aim.   I aimed about 25 yards left of the green with a 4-iron, hit it close to that line, and ended up on the right edge of the green with about a 20-foot putt for birdie.

The first time through can be daunting, but I had a much better idea of where to aim and miss on a second playing.

I'm imagining that as one's knowledge continues to grow, the difficulty level would become much more manageable.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I'm imagining that as one's knowledge continues to grow, the difficulty level would become much more manageable."

True of every course, moreso with courses like Kingsley with complex playing fields.  I'd rather discuss overall difficulty a little later, after more of the holes are covered.  In general, I think it is pretty difficult, but guys who play both Crystal and Kingsley generally think Crystal is a couple shots harder.  Crystal Downs is relentless.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I'm imagining that as one's knowledge continues to grow, the difficulty level would become much more manageable."

True of every course, moreso with courses like Kingsley with complex playing fields.  I'd rather discuss overall difficulty a little later, after more of the holes are covered.  In general, I think it is pretty difficult, but guys who play both Crystal and Kingsley generally think Crystal is a couple shots harder.  Crystal Downs is relentless.

I will agree to table the difficulty discussion until the end or for another thread.  When we have it though, I'd like to disagree on your Crystald Downs is relentless remark, I think that holes 13-16 are relatively benign. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
On the 5th however, I think it's a matter of where to aim.   I aimed about 25 yards left of the green with a 4-iron, hit it close to that line, and ended up on the right edge of the green with about a 20-foot putt for birdie.

There are numerous ways to attack the hole from the tee on the 5th, depending on your tendencies in shot shape or to get to a certain flagstick location.

Low shots, high floaters, fades, draws, even straight bunts are all possible, depending on what you are trying to do.  I love a nice low running shot that lands 25-30 yards short of the green in the gap of fairway -- the ball will release and roll down to the green.  A carefully played draw or hard hook will careen further left and stay up on the upper shelf, but that is a daunting shot to attempt.  Off-center hits will all gather towards the green, as it is a true punchbowl.  The margin of error is very high for an average shot and very small for the exacting player trying to get close to the pin.

My greatest shot on the hole probably came on the opening day celebration -- the pin was on the left front in a very inaccessible spot, there was a little wind into us and we were playing from about 185 yards.  My 5-iron flew true (an unusual aspect for me that day!) and finished one foot directly behind the cup!  Of course, we couldn't see the cup on the surface of the green from the tee, but didn't see it come down to the right, so it had to go right past the cup.  Good thing it didn't go in -- I never would have lived that one down (plus it was a full house and would have cost me a bundle!), but, oh, it was close!   :o

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The bowled green 5th makes for some imaginative putting opportunities. Shivas and I had a blast and could've stayed there for half the day.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I'm imagining that as one's knowledge continues to grow, the difficulty level would become much more manageable."

True of every course, moreso with courses like Kingsley with complex playing fields.  I'd rather discuss overall difficulty a little later, after more of the holes are covered.  In general, I think it is pretty difficult, but guys who play both Crystal and Kingsley generally think Crystal is a couple shots harder.  Crystal Downs is relentless.

I will agree to table the difficulty discussion until the end or for another thread.  When we have it though, I'd like to disagree on your Crystald Downs is relentless remark, I think that holes 13-16 are relatively benign. 

JCJ,

You certainly aren't required to postpone a difficulty discussion.  I just rthink it makes more sense to discuss it later in the thread, after most or all of the holes have been discussed.  Just my opinion.

I agree with the comment about holes 13 through 16.  Relentless sounded good last night, but was a bad choice of adjective.

tlavin

This has GCA get-together written all over it, IMHO.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
The bowled green 5th makes for some imaginative putting opportunities. Shivas and I had a blast and could've stayed there for half the day.

It took my brother half the day to putt from the front right to a pin on the upper left shelf.  He'd get close, then it'd roll back to him.  And again and again. ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 6th hole is a par 4
396 from the Gold tee
373 from the Blue tee

Another hole that can leave the golfer confused on the tee.  No good place to hit the ball.  Unlike some of the other holes that come before this one, I actually found this tee shot more intimidating the 2nd time around.  In our morning match, the group was 0 for 4 on finding the fairway.  In our afternoon match, the group was 0 for 5.  The morning shots were hit from close to the back tees.  The afternoon shots were hit closer to the 373 marker. 

Only one part of the fairway is really visible from the tee, and that part is of no use to the golfer.  Land your ball in front of that first giant mound and I can only imagine the difficulty of the approach from there!  To have a chance to keep your ball in the fairway, I think you need to hit your tee shot dangerously close to the row of bunkers on the right edge of the fairway, or be very long off the tee (the closer you get to the green, the less extreme the right to left sloping becomes.)  I aimed at the bunkers, figuring to fade the ball a little left, and hit a dead pull right into the trash.  Mike DeVries graciously volunteered to hit his bal that way as well, and off we went to look for our balls together.

If you aim at the middle of the fairway, your ball will surely roll hard left.  The ball will almost certainly be completely out of the fairway and the slope is extreme enough that balls landing in the middle or left of the fairway could roll far enough left to be in some pretty tough long grass.  From the tips, the tee shot is even more intimidating than the blue tees as the carry over the bunkers begins to look questionable to the one-time player.

The hole also provides a very different option and feel from a tee that plays around 300 yards.  I suspect the green is drivable from this tee in the right wind for the longer hitter, which wuld be an interesting variation for a match.  Not only is the hole shorter, but it plays from a different angle.  The fairway is much more visible and looks to be much more receptive from this tee.  I wouldn't recommend sacrificing your one shot to play the hole from the back tees to run up and play from the front, but with repeated plays I could see the allure of playing from the front tee from time to time.

Following punchbowl green, the crowned 6th green feels even smaller than it looks.  Bunker await in the right, and a steep chipping area falls off to the left.  Like many others on the site, I could see this green complex giving someone fits.

This is a fun hole to play, and yet another good par 4 on the front nine.  While this was one of the holes I was better prepared for prior to the round (I had seen more photos of this hole than probably any other on the course) it was even more confounding and demanding off the tee than I expected.

The view from the back tee


The view from the middle tee


The very different look from the front tee


A closer look at the wild humps in the fairway and the bunkers from the angle of the back and middle tees


A view of the approach.  The right to left slope of the fairway is evident.


A view slightly closer to the green as the fairway begins to level off


First look at the green from the approach


The front of the green showing the slope


A view from behind looking back at the green and fairway


Another angle from behind showing how the green plays smaller than its size


The green as seen on the 4th tee.  The fall off left of the green can be seen from this angle


One more view of the green and bunkering from above and to the right of the green
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:01:54 PM by Tim Bert »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'll have to disagree w/ you on this TB, I think the tee shot is a little easier the second time around.  If you cut the ball, aim at the group of 4 trees and cut it into the hill.  If you draw the ball, aim at the right bunkers and draw back into the fairway.  Straight hitter aims dead at the green.

I dont mind the slanted fairway as it feeds the ball down to the left, which, IMO is the best way to attack the green.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Along w/ the 4th, number six is one of my favorites at Kingsley.  I'll chime in later, but here are some pics from the website:















this photo shows the massive fall-off to the left of the green which is completely hidden from play (unless your eyes wander while you're on the 4th tee)
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Course looks great. What is the idea behind the trees in the middle of the bunkers, or is the reverse :) It is difficult to say but looking at the pictures posted by Tim and those from the club website it looks as though they have planted some silver birches recently.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tim Bert,

Re the 6th, I think your comment about the short tee and the better look suggests playing it from the front the first time around and from the back later, or at least having a good long look before attempting the intimidating (I agree) drive from the back.  Who said that we have to play victim to the architect's diabolical scheme to make us feel uncomfortable?   :) 

At Erin Hills, for example, we found the course much more fun if you mix up the tees from the standard rotations.

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