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Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2002, 08:21:02 PM »
Tom Egan,

I decided to have my own grandchildren and cut out the middle guy.  He is a complete joy, with one minor caveat,
I haven't slept in over three years.  He loves golf and whacks the ball pretty good.

TEPaul,

Perhaps the bunkers are just what Merion wanted and contracted for.  Don't you think if they turned out differently from what Merion wanted you would have heard squawking from the club, yet nary a whisper of displeasure has been heard from Ardmore.

What does that tell you ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2002, 09:00:36 PM »
In my profession, I've written any number of RFP's which need to be used as guidelines for creative people working towards a final result.

My profession involves the implementation of technology, and while that might sound on the face of it to be a black/white field of work, let me assure you that there is plenty of room for deviation.

Many of those RFP's become rather lengthy, trying to understand any potential eventuality that might negatively impact the critical path of the project, while leaving enough "wiggle-room" to allow for creativity and positive happenstance.

But even within that admittedly constricted endeavor, with much less actual "artistry" than is involved in something as visually and functionally complex as a bunker or golf course restoration, I cannot even begin to imagine that a "work order" on a golf course project would have the level of detail that Patrick assumes.  

In the case that Patrick mentions, my understanding of the work order was that the architect was shown pictures of the course from a certain year and told, "build these".

Now, since Patrick is also very fond of bringing in real world reasons why art is so often turned to craft, let's look at another reality.

The fact is, once a project is approved (often over contentious objections), the prime movers of the project are viewed internally within the club as THE PROJECT.  Yes, they take on that personalization, and are then completely and personally invested in that project being viewed as SUCCESSFUL, particularly with lots and lots of other people's money involved.  That's when the politicking really begins.

If the results are not quite what one had hoped for, but are still "within scope", sometimes the best thing to do personally and politically is DECLARE TOTAL VICTORY and move on.

I know from personal experience how this goes.  At present, through circumstances beyond personal control, I'm currently seen as the lead of a project that is risky, complicated, and more apt to piss more people off than please them.  Yet, it's something that I know has to be done, so I look at it as a worthwhile challenge, nevertheless.  If we are able to even achieve 80% of what we set out to do, it will create positive long-term benefits none of us can presently conceive.  It will enable us to move forward as a company under surer footing.

My long-winded point is simple; even if the "aesthetic" work on a golf course doesn't live up to what was hoped for, it is HIGHLY unlikely that the proponents of that project will raise an objection if some of the other goals (i.e. drainage, timetables, etc.) are met within budget.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2002, 09:17:06 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I might agree with you if all bunkers had been built and finished simultaneously, but as we know, that's not the case.

Once the first bunker was "unveiled" a decision had to be made.  Approve it as is, modify it, or redo it.

This evaluation process should have been repeated as each succeeding bunker was completed, and, the club is THE responsible party who ultimately has to sign off on each bunker.

It's not like this was some unknown club with no history.  
The sensitivity level on this project had to be heightened considerably, demanding club supervision at every level.

What do you think ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2002, 09:28:25 PM »
Patrick,

You know as well as I do that when a project is under the deadline of imposed TIME constraints, as this was, that corners are cut and sometimes "good enough" is unfortunately deemed "good enough".  

But, I also agree with Tom Paul's earlier point.  We are talking about extraordinarily complex bunkers here, which I'm sure the contractor had zero experience with.  It's not as though they even had the ability to emulate them properly, given the differences between hand-work and mechanized techniques once you got down to a detail level.

So, unfortunately, those complexities were largely eliminated for the sake of both expediency and practicality of what was possible within the timeframe.

Patrick...can you imagine, in your wildest dreams, someone coming into Garden City and completely digging up the 100+ bunkers and their surrounds and attempting to completely rebuild them from scratch within 8 months...particularly if they've never built a pot bunker before???  

Well, that's the reality here.  Before I comment further, I'd also suggest that you take Tom Paul up on his offer to see the work for yourself.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2002, 03:55:25 AM »
Patrick:

Perhaps the bunkers at Merion are what was contracted for by Merion, but who is Merion exactly? Are they really one big happy consensus family? You say if there was any displeasure we would have heard squawking! I don't think Merion members do that much squawking but that doesn't mean they don't have opinions and that they don't talk.

And you say nary a whisper has been heard? That may be because you're 150 miles away and haven't been in Philadephia in---how long?

If you're going to make these all encompassing black and white statements get your facts straight first, would you please? That's the new policy around here that's being enforced by this new Golfclubatlas dominator called Pat Mucci anyway--so get with your own program at least!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2002, 10:26:53 AM »
Mike Cirba,

If the time frame and mission were as you indicated, then it is most certainly the club's fault, and noone else's.  

They are the ones who created the time constraint, and the mandate to redo, what Tom Paul refers to as very complex bunkers within that questionable time frame.

Can you imagine, needing brain surgery, and telling the doctor that it must be done in fifteen minutes.  Having bunker re-construction treated as piece goods, or mass production doesn't seem like a well thougth out plan to me.

One would think that the overriding mandate would have been the quality of the bunker work/look which is intended to last for the next 50-100 years, not an 8 month completion schedule.

Tom Paul,

To answer your question one would probably be assisted by reviewing the by-laws of the club.  But, typically, the membership elects a Board, and either the membership or the Board elects a President.  The President usually appoints his committee chairs who in turn choose committee members.
Sometimes Presidential and Board recommendations are added as committee members.

Projects can begin with the President, Board, Committee chair, committee member, or member, but the project usually has to go through an approval process for the scope of the work and the financing of the work.

Many clubs have set dollar limits for spending without membership approval.  Other clubs have dictated that any substantive changes to the golf course or club house must be approved by the members.  Once a project is scheduled to hit this limit, or qualifies for membership approval,  it must be reapproved by a majority, or 2/3 vote of the membership.  This process can cause the project to be amended, but if we assume approval as presented, then the project would be turned back to that committee responsible for its implementation.

Each club determines the level of oversight they feel comfortable with.  They may leave the project in the hands of the committee with the board overseeing its scope, cost and progress, or they may appoint an additional watch dog committee as an extra safety precaution.

From this point, it is up to those delegated with the responsibility of the project, as approved by the membership, to bring the project in correctly, on time and on budget.

Memberships are rarely unanimous on any issue, from parking lot configuration, to decorating, to golf course alterations, to funding operations and capital improvements.
But, the will of the "MEMBERSHIP" is carried out by those elected, designated or appointed to do so under the terms of the clubs by-laws.

There is a traceable chain of command and responsibility.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2002, 10:48:56 AM »
Pat
Are all architects and contractors equally talented?  If three architects and three contractors are given the same mandate, will the results be the same? Doesn't artistic talent and craftsmanship seperate the good from the not so good architects and contractor?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2002, 11:32:19 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I don't think contractors or architects are equally talented, though they may be capably and/or adequately talented.

If we took three contractors of varying talents, gave them the bid specs and said have at it, I would think you might notice a difference in the finished product.

But, if you took those same three contractors, with the same bid specs, and added a compressed time frame for completion of the job, I maintain that the differences in the finished product would be less distinguishable.

If a contractor undertakes a project, complete with bid specs, and the finished product does not meet the bid specs, the other party to the contract has recourse.   Yet I have not read one published word with respect to dissatisfaction with the finished product by the club.

Let's assume, as some have mentioned, that the club just gave photos to the contractor and said, make the bunkers look like these photos. (I have to add that I really question this premise).  Understanding that bunkers are constructed sequentially, not simultaneously, when the first bunker was
"unveiled" The first and primary question would be,
"did the bunker look like the pictures?"  If yes, on to the next bunker.  If no, then the prudent question would seem to be,
do we modify it to look like the picture, or... do we have to rebuild it to look like the picture.  

Tom, somewhere along the line, someone from the club had to approve the work.  Completed work, and work in progress.

My quest has been to search for the facts.
Politically, administratively, architectually, and constructually
(it's not a word, but it fits)  
Once all the facts are known, everyone is free to judge for themselves as to the relative merits and success or failure of the project.

Does this make sense ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2002, 11:36:21 AM »
Pat
When evaluating the merits of a golf course do you consider the course's bid specs?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2002, 12:17:42 PM »
Tom MacWood,

You're confusing the issue, or the issue is confusing you.
Or you just don't understand how clubs do things.  I must confess, many is the time that I didn't understand how a club could do something, even my own club.

An established club made a determination that their old bunkers were in need of repair/fixing/renovation/rebuilding.

When a club identifies a perceived problem, and wishes to take steps to fix the perceived problem, they usually retain independent outside consultants who advise them on the available methodology/ies necessary to resolve the problem.
Those consultants can draft the bid specs necessary to achieve the desired results, since they themselves may not be doing the work.  The project would usually be contracted to firms familiar with the specific work at hand.

Most contractors don't operate as charitable organizations, hence, costing the job must be done.  You must cost the job because the members need to know how much it will cost them if they're going to support and vote for the project.

A firm can't bid on a nebulous project, there has to be guidelines, bid specs if you will.

Let me digress.
Pretend you're going to build a golf course and you and your architect want to build USGA greens.  
How do you build them?  How do you account for them ?
You build them according to bid specs.
If the architect has provided the square footage for all 18 greens and the practice putting and/or chipping green.
You and the contractor can figure out how much sand, river rock, seed mix, drains, etc., etc.. you're going to need, and you can then price the cost of materials, and labor, factoring in contingencies.  Unless you possess unlimited wealth or are a fool, the cost of your materials is a significant item in the project, to you the project manager, and the members of the club, whose money you're spending.

Now, back to the bunkers.

If a club has a finite, fixed, unalterable timetable, the contractors you want may not be available when you want them.   Or, the contractor you want may be too expensive for your members appetite.  Many clubs insist on getting three competing bids, with the job usually awarded to the lowest
QUALIFIED BIDDER.

You have a romantic, unrealistic view of how work gets done at a golf/country club.  It is not a process that occurs in a vacuum, free from encumbrances, diversions and distractions.
Nor is it a job where an artiste is given a blank pallet and a blank check.

It can be an arduous, contentious, thankless job for all involved.

From what little I know, I'll repeat that, from what little I know
it seems to me that this was an ill conceived project.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2002, 01:09:27 PM »
Pat:

Believe me I'm more than familiar with the way various clubs are structured and the processes for initiating, generating and taking a restoration plan through memberships and also how to research and analyze the proper way to implement that restoration plan.

But for the benefit of those on this website and others I really don't see the point of trying to find fault or culpability with a golf club, certainly Merion, in the processes used by them or various clubs.

What's worth talking about though is the extent to which  research and planning is necessary in certain circumstances and also talking about how that process can go awry even with the best of intentions from those that run those golf clubs.

My experiences tell me that the first thing any club and those that run them should realize is that the restoration process they are about to enter into is not the first one that has ever taken place anywhere, as they seem to feel, and that they really don't need to proceed in a virtual vacuum alone! If they can just understand that first, and most don't, they can then reach out and begin to collaborate with other clubs that have been through the process they're entering into.

This is so damned important to know but it generally becomes apparent only in hindsight! If you can reach out to others that have been through it before you it becomes so much easier to see where the obstacles lie, where the mistakes are made, what kind of architect to consider etc, etc. I've always hoped that somehow Golfclubatlas could be a help in this process of information dissemination or collaboration!

Why so few clubs don't first do this amazes me now. They obvously think it's no real big deal; that architecture isn't very important or complicated generally, or that they know all the questions and all the answers, for some reason. The most prevalent of all is the amazingly inaccurate assumption most clubs make that any architect can help them do and acheive the same thing in the same way if only they explain to him generally what they want.

So this I would call the research phase that precedes even the hiring of an architect and precedes setting out to construct a restoration plan.

In restrospect, the compiling of a "design evolution report" of the club's architectural history, if that history is interesting and the course's original architecture is valid is extremely important, in my opinion. When I did the one for GMGC I really had no idea what I was doing or doing it for. I just came across an historic aerial and said; Oh my God, look how different everything used to be!" At first I had no idea what it even meant in an architectural or playability context--I really knew nothing about architecture then. I just kept looking and comparing and compiling and typing the whos, whens, whys and whats until it was all done.

Someone in the club saw it, said it should be published with the aerials for the membership and it was. When it went out it produced enough interest and even pride in the golf course's original design intent! It showed what the potential was of what was basically out there but shrunken and covered up, and inspired the consideration of comprehensive restoration. Consideration of restoration also dovetailed with an analysis of what we might need to do with our course cost-wise in a comparison of a move to a new course at Ardrossan!

And so we interviewed a few architects that we considered real restoration architects and interviewed them by showing them the course and the "design evolution report". I even remember that the names Tom Fazio and even Pete Dye, who I've known for years, were discussed but were discarded because we concluded that as good as they may be, restoration was probably not something they concentrated on.

So we hired Gil and the meetings began and went on and on. I'm so thankful now that Gil was there for all these meetings because he was able to explain to us in a very low-keyed but completely logical way that one of the most dangerous things that can drive a really good restoration awry in the beginning, middle or end is the pat assumptions people can make!

Members on committees or a Board are very prone to making assumptions of what they believe to be a logical recommendations but it takes a Gil Hanse or someone as good as our super is in many areas, to explain logically; "That might seem logical on the face of it, but if you do that here's what may happen or happen elsewhere that you might not at first imagine". That kind of thing takes so many forms and filtered through correctly can avoid so many problems down the road.

Personally, I believe that the vast majority of what Merion has done and is going to do is excellent and very well conceived and that it will turn out very well. It's no secret to those who are my friends and acquaintances at Merion though, that on the single issue of the bunker surrounds that they may have made a mistake.

I'm more than willing to admit that many at Merion may have believed that those ancient evolutionary surrounds were falling apart and needed to be taken apart and completely rebuilt starting almost from scratch! Still today I'm not completely sure if they felt that way simply because they did not like them and the way they'd become or that they viewed them as an ongoing maintenance headache. What I do suspect though, is that in the process of doing completely necessary drainage and sanding work they ASSUMED the "surrounds" inherently had to be part of the bunker rebuild project!

If that's the case that was a very dangerous assumption that led to the demise of some really beautiful, natural evolutionary bunker surrounds that were replaced by a more modern looking machine made assimilation of what they once were.

That very well may be what they wanted though, and I don't  know whether that's true or not. Some members like what they have now, some probably don't know the difference or don't care and others are very sad about it. The question is if they understood or seriously considered that the surrounds could have been left alone or at the least repaired when the two other elements of sanding and drainage were done.

Anyway, I don't know that fault finding is necessary or benefical now, but the perscription of research, collaboration and constant "assumption checking" is a necessary one in restorations, particularly if the course is one as famous, classic and unique as Merion. Gulph Mills is a fairly complex restoration too but not in the same ballpark as Merion. We have various latitudes, in other words, that I don't believe they ever had.

Anyway, the whole thing is interesting, time consuming, sometimes frustrating but ultimately fun and gratifying. But on certain courses and certain types of courses I'm more adamant than ever that any old architect will not and cannot do what you might think you want him to do simply by just  giving him his marching orders, as you keep saying! Only if it were that simple, but I guarantee you that it's not!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2002, 01:22:47 PM »
TEPaul,

I was trying to provide some information to Tom MacWood as to how projects evolve, and I confined my references to Merion solely to their bunker project.

Clubs make mistakes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2002, 03:09:06 PM »
Pat
I'm not confusing the issue, I just asked a simple question, when evaluating the merits of a golf course do you consider the bid specs?

I've been fortunate to play a number of very good courses, and while paying those courses I don't ever recall wondering about the bid specs or wondering about the mandate given to the architect or contractor. I've read every course profile on this site and I don't recall reading about the bid specs or mandate. I've read many posts on this site about a number of great architects past and present, their design philosophies and their most outstanding works, but nothing about bid specs and manadates. And I think I know the reason - NOBODY GIVES A CRAP!

This site is devoted to architecture, not a bunch of clubmen who might think they know something, but 9 times out of ten don't know crap about golf design and probably could care less about its finer points. They're more consumed with controll, reputation, difficulty and prestige - does that sound familar.

When an architect or contractor accepts a project I assume they understand the bid specs and mandate, and they understand that no mattter what those mandates and bid specs are their name will go on the project and they will be judged by the finished project. No one forces them to accept jobs that might compromise their work or reputation. And no one wants hear excuses for mediocre work. Are you telling me that if every course that XXXX builds looks like the same garbage that we shouldn't be wondering if a lack of skill and craftsmanship might be the problem?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2002, 03:47:17 PM »
Tom MacWood,

We were specifically discussing the Merion bunker project and a sub-contractor.  The renovation/restoration, and the resultant product, which Merion seems content with.  
One of my points was, how can you take issue with the contractor if they fulfilled their contractual obligation to the club ?  My related point was, wouldn't it be the club's fault, if the finished product MacDonald & Co provided, was what they wanted ?

Bid specs are one of the things that convert ideas into reality,
something you don't want to deal with.

Do you think Fazio's short course work at Pine Valley looks just like the original work Crump et. al. created, or do you think it looks like crap, like garbage as you say ?

Do you think the second eighth green Fazio created at Pine Valley looks just like the original Crump green, or like crap, like garbage as you say ?

If a club wants to make changes to its golf course, should every architect and contractor refuse the job, because they don't agree in principle with the changes the members/owners of the club want ?

You and others are so blinded by bias that it impairs your abilities to see and think prudently.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2002, 03:54:44 PM »
Bid specs and getting the job done on time might put food on the table, but it doesn't get you profiled on this site - great design and craftsmanship does.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2002, 04:32:09 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I'm sure Rees Jones and Tom Fazio will appreciate the validation of their profiling on this site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2002, 04:53:49 PM »
Pat:

One of these days even you are going to see the folly and illogic of some of your arguments!

Bid specs have something to do with golf architecture but they have nothing to do with this particular discussion and nothing to do with Merion and its bunker project.

And none of us really needs to be constantly discussing where to place blame! Just forget about talking about placing blame all the time.

If those bunkers are what Merion wanted, then fine--they got just what they wanted. All we're saying is what they got is not the best it could be, in the opinion of some of us. This is merely a discussion of architecture, great architecture and sometimes what makes architecture not so great. Blame placing does not need to be part of this discussion and probably should not be part of it!

When it comes to MacDonald & Co. blame placing is not needed either. But recognizing what kind of bunkers MacDonald & Co produces is. And there's nothing wrong with stating that what they produce is simply not the best that could have been done at Merion! There are hundreds and hundreds of other courses on which MacDonald style bunkers would be just fine, I guess, rather modern looking assimilations of other styles, but in this case an assimilation of what Merion's style used to be is just not the best for what that course had and should have.

No one should be blaming MacDonald for doing what they do if someone wants to hire them, but we certainly can say their product is not the best for some classic courses without casting blame on them. We can also say that a clearly talented architect, like Fazio, with whom apparently anything is possible should also know this and see the difference. But for some reason he doesn't or doesn't seem to care. As Lynn Shackelford said, this it really about architectural responsibility when it comes to classic architecture and some damned famous courses too!

You're also so hung up on this idea about "bias" that you seem to insist on stifling otherwise valid architectural criticism at every turn.

Personally, no, I would not necessarily suggest that every architect refuse a job because a club might ask him to do something that he might not agree with the principles of. And I mean that very much Pat--because architects, I recognize, have many reasons to do what they do.

But that in no way prevents me from having great admiration for an architect who does refuse a job because they cannot condone the particular mandates of what a club might be asking them to do! And I also admire an architect who when faced with something he may not agee with in architectural principle refuses to do a job only because he is asked or told to do it!

And in that vein, I'm sure you know who I'm talking about!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2002, 05:04:03 PM »
TEPaul,

You may recall, I got involved on this thread defending MacDonald and Co, asking that before they are to be condemned by some on this site, that all the facts be known.

Since you brought up Lynn Shackelford, I'll pose this question.
If Lynn Shackelford owned Riviera, dictated everything that happened at Riviera, would there be any architectual problems at Riviera ?

The ultimate responsibility lies with the owner/members and no one wants to acknowledge that, everyone wants to blame the contractor or architect, the same architect that did a wonderful job at Pine Valley.

Is the picture I'm trying to paint getting clearer ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2002, 06:25:24 PM »
Pat
I'm still looking for the Rees Jones design profiled on the site, but as you know (or may not know) I have voiced my support of Victoria National. It is one of the more unique golf courses in the US and extremely challenging.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2002, 07:36:30 PM »
Pat:

This discussion has gotten completely cyclical as have discussions with you with others on a number of other threads.

Again, this is an architectural discussion group that tries to comment on and analyze architecture. If the bunker work done by MacDonald & Co. on some recent restorations is deemed inferior to bunker work that's done by other architects, for some reason you just can't seem to live with it.  

I'm sorry you can't live with it but those that present their comments, opinions and analyses seem to do it well enough for the rest of us but not you for some reason, and at this point I really don't think they're that interested in continually defending their opinions in these cyclical arguments you present that too often devolve into questioning of the definitions of the terms they use and often have no end in sight.

I really don't think I need to speculate on what Lynn Shackelford's decisions would be if he was the owner of Riviera except it's likely he might not hire Fazio and MacDonald & Co. for the reasons you've heard on here a number of times supported by the facts of the products on numerous other classic golf courses. And yes, in my opinion, Fazio did a fine job on the architecture of the short course at Pine Valley--I only wish the same could be said for his work on other classic courses.

And I certainly would not present to you Merion's mission statement on the Internet even if I had it. Would you like decisions and the reasons why you made them in a green committee at GCGC or any other club discussed all over the world on the Internet. Merion's people read this site and have for a few years and if they care to have these things known they can make them known themselves.

We are free to comment on any architecture anywhere but asking any of us to constantly back up our opinions by producing more and more facts that have to do with the way clubs operate is not very fair to us or to them and I no longer want to be part of that attempt on your part. If you wonder why people make the comments they do or have the opinions they have just ask them to explain them! This constant harping for more facts is getting old since when they're given to you, you don't seem to understand them, don't acknowledge them or deny them!

There are some knowledgeable people on here and they express their opinions. Just take them or leave them like the rest of us do. This self admitted crusade on your part to defend anyone and everyone from architectural critique is getting to be too much--at least it is for me at this point!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2002, 09:02:26 PM »
I think this is where I came in, about six months ago  -- in the middle of an insanely long debate about Merion's bunkers.

Thanks for the memories, guys.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2002, 09:35:53 PM »
Dan,

Stick around, you get to relive those memories every 2-3 months here. Reckon the Merion crowd really redid those damn bunkers just to sit back and watch all the action here?  :)

(Please no one think I'm being a smart-ass about the Merion bunker topic. I'm just having fun. By all means keep posting away about it. Merion is truly a wonderful old course)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2002, 03:58:35 AM »
This isn't about Merion's bunkers and it isn't about "TV and the Open Doctor" either. Like many of these topics it isn't about the topic either, it gets to be about Pat Mucci's crusade to defend architects, contractors etc from architectural critique, bias etc, to search for endless facts about clubs, memberships, their processes etc, and even that devolves down to a debate about the definition of words eventually. Then the topic filters into the back pages to be overtaken by the next topic on architectural critique where Pat Mucci continues his campaign to defend architects and contrators etc from architectural critique, bias etc, to search for endless facts about clubs, memberships, proc.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2002, 04:44:23 AM »
TE
Please be fair. Remember you really don't know what Pat is thinking, only what he is writing, which he admitted might not be one in the same.

I didn't mean any of this.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: TV and "the Open Doctor"
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2002, 06:59:32 AM »
lol Be careful for you don't know what he is thinking, only what he is writing. This may not always be one and the same. I love it. lol
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »