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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Do You Speak Chinese?
« on: November 11, 2008, 10:52:26 AM »
And do you want to be in the golf business?

I was in China three weeks ago investigating a new project, which I believe we will sign up to build starting sometime next year.  I believe I've found a client who understands what we do and how we work.

However, it will be difficult for us to work in China the way we've worked in the USA ... the language barrier being the first of many extra difficulties we have to work out.  Normally, architects are provided with translators, but I've spoken with the client about trying to find someone who is fluent in Chinese and interested in golf architecture to work on the job and translate for us as necessary.

Please contact me directly if interested ... my email is doakgolf@aol.com
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2008, 10:57:43 AM »
Tom,

I know "Gwi Lo" (phonetics) means "White Trash"

don't ask me how..... ;)
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2008, 11:06:24 AM »
Are you talking Cantonese or Mandarin?
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 11:10:14 AM »
Gotta be Mandarin, no?

According to the commercials, Michael Phelps might be able to help you out...
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 11:18:42 AM »
Tom, Is your deal predicated on having the trust and language barrier overcome prior to any work done by your company?
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 12:11:42 PM »
Adam:

We're working on it already -- a preliminary plan, anyway -- and I have a very good feeling about the client, so I'm confident we can overcome the obstacles.
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 12:28:43 PM »
Have you contacted Scmidt/Curley for help in finding someone or is that not done in your profession? They do a lot of work in China.


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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 12:53:31 PM »
由于湯姆如此說


(Because Tom said so.) Do I get the job?
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ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2008, 01:06:16 PM »
Oh man - really wish I knew mandarin. I travel to Beijing frequently but don't have the language skills.
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Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2008, 02:13:59 PM »
As red-blooded Americans, aren't we supposed to expect and demand that everyone else learns to speak English? ;D

If arrogance and egocentrism are not readily apparent in the way you carry yourself, then you don't support our troops. -Mark Twain

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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2008, 02:35:28 PM »
Kyle:

I fully expect that it's likely we will find a Chinese person who has learned to speak English and wants the position.  Either way is fine with me.

Steve S:

Schmidt / Curley is embarking on a huge project in the same vicinity, so I suspect they wouldn't refer me to any of their best people ... but I might ask them for general business advice.
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TEPaul

Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 02:49:31 PM »
TomD:

This will be your chance to put into effect that odd old adage that if you want something natural and unique just go find the town idiot and get him to build it for you.

You don't need a translator. When in front of your Chinese contractor just scream "REDAN!!" at him and just let him do whatever he thinks that's supposed to mean.

Believe me, you will thank me for this suggestion. I will tell you where to send the cases of really good red wine later.
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Jay Flemma

Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2008, 05:18:39 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on November 11, 2008, 10:57:43 AM
Tom,

I know "Gwi Lo" (phonetics) means "White Trash"

don't ask me how..... ;)

Actually I think it means "round eye."  Some people claim it's a slur, but I also hear some people say it was a joke made up by Hollywood, like in that Ping Pong movie "Balls of Fury."

Funny movie...

« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 05:22:10 PM by Jay Flemma »
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Matt_Sullivan

Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2008, 05:43:19 PM »
Hi Tom

I am based in Beijing but my Chinese is only social -- bars, restaurants, golfing, taxis etc. I do know a few people who might be suitable though.

Couple of questions:

-- is the development in or near Beijing or Shanghai
-- would it be a full time job, and if so for how long
-- is architecture experience necessary, or do you just want a bilingual person who understands golf

BTW, I have lived here for four years and been coming for ten, so I know a little bit about business generally here. Let me know if you want to chat about anything. And of course feel free to look me up if you are ever here in Beijing

Edit: Sorry Tom, I probably should have emailed you this. Feel free to reply to msullivan@cchchina.com.cn

Matt
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2008, 05:51:53 PM »
Wo shi ege lau fan!
Wo shwo ediandian chung gwo wha.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Sullivan

Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2008, 06:00:45 PM »
Jay, Jeff

"Gweilo" is Cantonese -- means "ghost man" or some such (I am by no means a canto speaker!). It was originally derogatory (and still can be) but it has been mostly adopted by the expats in Hong Kong to refer to themselves.

"Lao wai" is the Mandarin/mainland equivalent -- means "old foreigner" more or less. Also can be seen as a pejorative, but again seems to be happily used by the local expat community

Personally my favourite Chinese word for foreigner comes from the Hokkien dialect: "Ang moh" which means "red haired". Used mostly in Singapore and Malaysia. Again some people seem to get upset (and wikipedia, for example, comes out quite strongly on the pejorative side) but in my 5 years in Singapore I never saw or felt that. Indeed my wife and I still use it today to refer to us Caucasian folk -- "Gee, there's a lot of Ang Mohs here in Beijing this time of year" etc

Here endeth the lesson!

Matt

PS: Not sure how commonly this is known outside of China, but the Chinese can be quite racist. Racism is not only a Western disease.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2008, 06:07:15 PM »
Thanks Matt!

Loo wai, not lao fan. You may have wondered about my gender after that mistake.
They are being nice when they tell you it means old foreigner. The proper translation would be old barbarian.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Sullivan

Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2008, 06:15:32 PM »
Hi Garland

Well the character for "wai" (外) means "outside", "external" or "foreign". So whether it is translated as "old foreigner" or "old barbarian"  depends on the intent of the speaker really. Certainly "Lao wai" is not a term of endearment but it is not always pejorative. They really don't have another word for us (at least commonly used) so we can like it or lump it!

Matt 
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2008, 06:27:59 PM »
How about cha ching?

Tom, Any tidbits on the site? Sand? Character?
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2008, 06:31:51 PM »
A quick google search shows I had it right the first time. Lau fan is old barbarian, which is the perjorative term.

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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2008, 09:36:58 PM »
Working in China now! - definately difficult to work the same way you are used to - welcome though and the more great designers there the better - it will raise awareness of what it takes to build great golf courses and raise the standard of golf design in the country(I hope).

Based on your comments the project is in Hainan then - a seaside location? The hardest thing will be to find a person to undertake your key role who you can TRUST - language aside. Many have ulterior motives and grand plans as future business titans. If you find a person who you can trust hold on to him because they are as rare as hens teeth.

The other difficult thing may be reconciling what you see as good design with your clients ideas - one thing - Chinese relate to the natural landscape and ornamental landscape in a completely different way to those in the west. What we see as natural and beautiful in a rough way they see as something to be tamed and organised (perhaps with a hedge or a few colourful shrubs in place of ornamental grasses). Good luck.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 09:56:29 PM by B. Mogg »
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Sam Maryland

Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 10:49:16 AM »
what a fantastic opportunity!    I will certainly pass along to a few people I know...

SM
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Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2008, 12:27:33 PM »
Very interesting Tom,

At one time I knew 300 of the chinese characters.
My experience in Japan was that the engineering terms which were very helpful on-site were not known by the average translator.
Toe-of-Slope and Shoulder-of-Slope were two very important terms used.
Also, the words for "blending together" or "matching grades" were invaluable. 

I am a quick learner!

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Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 12:34:52 PM »
Tom, check your email.
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do You Speak Chinese?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 04:10:46 PM »
northern or Southern?
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