[George Freeman]

I recently figured out how to post pictures, and to celebrate I will post some pictures of the Saguaro course at We-Ko-Pa in Fort MacDowell, AZ.  I really enjoyed the course, it is my favorite desert course in my very limited desert golfing portfolio.  Not very often you find a very walkable desert course, and one where walking is actually encouraged!

1st 443 yd Par 4 approach (all yardages from 6,603 "back" tees; there is a "tournament" tee set which measures 6,966 yds)


2nd 299 yd Par 4 - This is a fantastic reachable par 4 which has tons of room for a lay up, but lots of danger up around the green


Blind tee shot on the 609 yd par 5 fourth with centerline bunker (240 to carry from the "back" tees)


And the view once over the hill


5th 159 yd Par 3


Semi-blind tee shot on the 406 yd par 4 6th


(obstructed) view of the 6th green from the landing area


Similar looking blind tee shot on the 305 yd par 4 7th


Nice uphill 498 yd Par 5 8th


Short Par 3 ninth - 130 yds (small Saguaro clubhouse behind)


Great green complex and bunkering at the 322 yd Par 4 10th


Close up of the green


194 yd Par 3 11th


Split fairway 527 yd Par 5 14th


Approach


233 yd Par 3 15th


The drive on the 372 yd par 4 17th


and the approach


And finally the drive on the 490 yd par 4 (!) 18th

[Tom Naccarato]

That Coore & Crenshaw sure need to figure out how to do some intelligent golf architecture at least once in a while....

[Jeff_Mingay]

Most interesting to me, relative to a recent thread discussing Coore's and Crenshaw's "horseshoe" greens with a bunker featuring front-centre, is George's photo of the 10th here, at Saguaro... another version of 8 at Sand Hills, 12 at Chechessee Creek, 5 at Friar's Head (minus the bunker), et al... (I can't currently

This is not to say this concept is not good design. It is. It's just interesting that versions of this concept continue to "travel with" Bill and Ben.

[Carl Nichols]

George:
What time of year are these pictures from?  Also, what day of the week .... I can only spot six people in your pics. 

[Andy Troeger]

Most interesting to me, relative to a recent thread discussing Coore's and Crenshaw's "horseshoe" greens with a bunker featuring front-centre, is George's photo of the 10th here, at Saguaro... another version of 8 at Sand Hills, 12 at Chechessee Creek, 5 at Friar's Head (minus the bunker), et al... (I can't currently

This is not to say this concept is not good design. It is. It's just interesting that versions of this concept continue to "travel with" Bill and Ben.

Also #14 at Colorado GC, #5 at Warren GC. I like the green concept, but they certainly do use it frequently.

Carl,
I looked back at my Saguaro photos. Even though the course was busy when I played, its not that hard to get golfers out of the photos because the carts (if folks ride) tend to be out in the desert (cart-path only I believe). Granted, the course might just have been empty when George played.

[Carl Nichols]

Or maybe George just plays slow? 

[George Freeman]

Carl,

I played it in January, and there were a decent amount of people on the course...more so than the pictures let on.

[Adam Clayman]

Most interesting to me, relative to a recent thread discussing Coore's and Crenshaw's "horseshoe" greens with a bunker featuring front-centre, is George's photo of the 10th here, at Saguaro... another version of 8 at Sand Hills, 12 at Chechessee Creek, 5 at Friar's Head (minus the bunker), et al... (I can't currently

This is not to say this concept is not good design. It is. It's just interesting that versions of this concept continue to "travel with" Bill and Ben.

 Impressions from cumulative works witnessed is that if the concepts are fundamentally sound they continue to use them. Where these guys really shine is their ability to make it all fit with minimal intrusion on the eye. Even on this clearly manufactured canvas, there's nothing that stands out flowing against the natural.

[John Foley]

George - grat pics!!

I liked Saguaro alot - the par 3's we're very strong.

The most amazing part is the variety of the width of the holes. Some we're tight (par 5 with the split fw's) and some we're massive (par 5 4th for one).

Tommy - Have you played it yet?? If not you should. It's much much better than your beloved TS.

[Ryan Farrow]

John, that's your opinion. I still think Talking Stick may be better. Plus I thought the par 3's were very average.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks for the pictures, George.

I've yet to play Saguaro, but I know that redanman was extremely impressed, mentioning that he felt they took several significant architectural risks that worked out really well.

[Andy Troeger]

Put me with John on the We-Ko-Pa/TSN comparison. 9-1, not even close. (No offense Ryan, you're obviously entitled to disagree).

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Cirba:

"(S)ignificant architectural risks?"

Mike, I almost fell off my chair w laughter -- I played Saguaro and I'd love to know the "significiantg architectural risks" that were undertaken. Frankly, I see plenty of
cut'n paste stuff that C&C have done previously being included with their works in the
AZ desert.

Ryan:

Your assessment is an apt one -- save for the final par-3 on the inner half. I'd only say it would have been a better comparison to throw forward Vista Verde which I see as the better of the two courses.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

As mentioned, I haven't been there yet.

When I talk to redanman next, I'll ask him to expand on his impressions.

[Ryan Farrow]

Mike Cirba:

"(S)ignificant architectural risks?"

Mike, I almost fell off my chair w laughter -- I played Saguaro and I'd love to know the "significiantg architectural risks" that were undertaken. Frankly, I see plenty of
cut'n paste stuff that C&C have done previously being included with their works in the
AZ desert.

Ryan:

Your assessment is an apt one -- save for the final par-3 on the inner half. I'd only say it would have been a better comparison to throw forward Vista Verde which I see as the better of the two courses.

Matt, I try to think back on the holes I played and I really can't. Even looking at some of the pictures it begs the question, what hole was that? As far as the 3's go I could only remember 2, the really long one and the really, really short one.

Perhaps the risks were the quirky/blind holes? The one,I really liked was the driveable par 4 7th hole. The par 5 8th is literally a roller coaster and just a great, great golf hole.  But I just felt there were too many easy holes as well as a few spots on the golf course where things just became a little boring and uninteresting. I could definitely use another play there and all things considered it is still one of the best courses in AZ.

Matt, I'm sure you will like this:

As I look back on my previous list of my top AZ courses(as to not contradict myself) I left out Apache Stronghold. Which I think is one of the best. So by all means,  take my opinion lightly. And FYI Apache would be #1 on my list. SOOO.. good I left it off. Which would then de-throne Talking Stick as #1 and push back We-ko-Pa to #3. Funny how this all works itself out.


Which then begs the question why I think Saguaro is better than V.V. I don't know. I think Saguaros better holes are better and it just feels more right, more like desert golf should feel than Vista Verde.  And there are too many damn chip shots to greens above my head at Vista Verde!!!!!

[Sean_A]

Most interesting to me, relative to a recent thread discussing Coore's and Crenshaw's "horseshoe" greens with a bunker featuring front-centre, is George's photo of the 10th here, at Saguaro... another version of 8 at Sand Hills, 12 at Chechessee Creek, 5 at Friar's Head (minus the bunker), et al... (I can't currently

This is not to say this concept is not good design. It is. It's just interesting that versions of this concept continue to "travel with" Bill and Ben.

 Impressions from cumulative works witnessed is that if the concepts are fundamentally sound they continue to use them. Where these guys really shine is their ability to make it all fit with minimal intrusion on the eye. Even on this clearly manufactured canvas, there's nothing that stands out flowing against the natural.

It must be me then because the transition areas from desert to course are not very well done - they are too sharp and obvious.  This seems to be an ongoing problem I have with nearly all desert courses and perhaps there isn't a satisfactory solution - it probably has something to do with how much land is allowed to be fairway. 

In any case, I look at what you lot call the a saddle hole and I am amazed at how similar it looks to Woking's 3rd though Woking's scale is inverted with a bigger bunker and a narrower green - its an interesting take on the idea.





All that said, the course looks quite good between the lines!  Thanks for posting Ryan.

Ciao

[Dave Givnish]

I played Saguaro for the 2nd time about a month ago when we were down for over-seed.  It seemed to me that the management company is keeping the course a bit firmer than Troon does with Talking Stick.  TS is designed to be firm and fast, but because the Indian communities have unlimited water, those courses have usually been wet and green.

I like that We-ko-pa makes it easy to walk with the speed carts (trolleys).  It would be nice if more courses here do that.  Walking to the ball from a curbed cart path is a pain in the a**.

Two small bitches about Saguaro - the clubhouse building was placed so that the Men's room door is right behind the 9th green (see photo - pin is directly in line with it), so there is a lot of distraction.   And that bunker in the middle of 10 green - the arm of the green to the left is only about 15'-20' wide and the pin has been there both times I played the course.

Dave

[John Mayhugh]

Two small bitches about Saguaro - the clubhouse building was placed so that the Men's room door is right behind the 9th green (see photo - pin is directly in line with it), so there is a lot of distraction.   And that bunker in the middle of 10 green - the arm of the green to the left is only about 15'-20' wide and the pin has been there both times I played the course.

The 10th hole is only about 320 yards off the tee.  The green is also fairly deep.  To get it close to the hole when it's front left, you just have to hit a precise shot which isn't really asking too much of you on a short par 4. 

If you don't like that bunker, I would advise you to steer clear of the Old Course.

[ChipRoyce]

John, that's your opinion. I still think Talking Stick may be better. Plus I thought the par 3's were very average.

I played both Talking Stick and Saguaro back to back. I have to agree, Talking Stick was a bit more fun and engaging from a GCA perspective. Seeing the pics, however, I am interested to go back and play Saguaro again. The one time was with an aspiring Senior PGA pro and we played from the tips. Was surprisingly manageable but spent more time on my game than appreciating the course.

[Mark Smolens]

I don't think that the encouragement of walking at Saguaro can be overstated.  Since hurting my shoulder last spring, hoofing with clubs has been a problem.  At We-Ko-Pa, they give you an electric speed cart instead of a cart.  The paths through the desert mean that you actually walk less than you do from the path, and because you have your bag with you, there's never a problem of having grabbed the wrong club.  That's a real factor here because depending on the angle of your approach shot, you will often find that you can't shoot at a flag due to the placement of a hazard.  Though I don't usually play from all the way back, because of the width of the course it is playable from there even for someone who doesn't hit it deep.  Liking Saguaro is certainly not to denigrate TS or VV, however, as all three are wonderful places to play -- esp. when it is now 33 degrees outside my office window here in the Windy City. . .

[Dave Givnish]

John -

10 is 320 yards downhill, and it played downwind both times I played the course.  Laying up was just not an option!  

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
I'm glad to hear you comment that they are promoting walking. The first time I played it, I felt like I was the only person on the course walking, and the second time we took a cart because we were playing 36 that day. I don't recall a lot of walkers, even though the course went to the efforts you mention to allow for an easy walk. Sounds like that is improving.

[Chuck Brown]

What strains of turfgrass did C&C employ at We-Ko-Pa?

[Richard Hetzel]

Beuatiful pictures and scenery, without a doubt. However, those desert courses are contrived in my opinion. Of course, I'll still play them!

[Tim Gerrish]

Sean,

I think the C & C team are mimicking the Lion's Mouth at St. Andrews Old Course when they are creating the Horseshoe.  They are not the first.  Raynor did not several time, especially at CC of Charleston. 

As far as tie in... wow, those holes look pretty darn good fro the pictures.  There are no steep slopes or weird walls off to the sides.  Of course the blind shots are the result of not forcing the holes.  They do a great job from the courses if seen at really using the land.

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